Final decision on TT run groups @ Nationals

[RAFTRACER]

Greg G,

When will the run groups for Nationals be finalized ???? Do you think it will be soon or after the entry deadline. I want to run two classes, but it would be better to know sooner than later ,where the break will be to make final arrangements . TIA, I know you already have enough on your plate....

[Greg G.]

I won't be able to make the final groupings until I have the final car counts for each class. Things are still too fluid in the numbers. I'm going to try to keep R,U, A together, and D,E,F together if possible. C and B are looking like they may have pretty similar lap times this year, with B probably a tad faster. I'm trying to keep B and C in different run groups, but it may not happen. On the last count, it looked like C may be moving in with R,U,A?

 

If you have a car in D,E,or F, you are probably pretty safe to be able to run in both groups (with your TTU car in the other).

 

Everyone just register in whatever two classes you want, and I'll try to take into account double entrants when I finalize the class groupings.

[RAFTRACER]

Thanks for the repsonse, but it would be a whole lot easier for me to vote with my wallet (again), if I knew I could actually pull off another run group and which one that would be. I could do TTB or TTD, but it would be nice to know the options before the final date. (Obviosuly there are additional preparations and logistics involved )

[Greg G.]

Danny, TTD would be a 99% bet that it would fly for you. TTB would be closer to 50%. If you register for the wrong one, I'll let you switch after I have the final counts/class groupings. It will probably be on Monday. Also, you can always cancel the extra group at a later time if you decide to.

[Greg G.]

Pending any further changes (which I don't expect, but always reserve the right to do in case "something changes" unexpectedly), we will have the classes running as follows at the Championships:

 

Group G: TTB, TTD, TTE, TTF

Group I: TTR, TTU, TTA, TTC

 

There will be no TTG class.

 

I'm not going to set any minimum lap times, per se, for the slower cars, but any car that appears to be a safety risk (whether too reckless or too slow), will be dealt with in a manner that results in an improved safety situation. However, I will say that if the fastest car in the G run group is doing low 1:40's or high 1:30's, and the typical range of TTF times is 1:52-1:58, a TTF car that is doing 2:10+ is likely to be considered a safety hazard.

[RAFTRACER]

Thanks Greg, looks like I can pull of my double with that grouping after all. So the two separate TT run groups will only be separated time wise by just one run group ???? Is there going to separate download sessions for each run group or one combined. Sorry if you have already answered this elsewhere.

[Greg G.]

There will be just one download meeting for the entire group of TT drivers. I plan on having the 8am meetings on Thurs, Fri, Sat (those are the initial meeting, and the download sessions for the third sessions on Thursday and Friday). The meeting times for the two other Thurs/Friday, and one other Saturday meeting will be determined at the track, based on multiple factors, including how much time we (TT Directors) need for tech/compliance inspection.

[zuperdave]

First this: http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=10589&start=40

 

Now this

 

Pending any further changes (which I don't expect, but always reserve the right to do in case "something changes" unexpectedly), we will have the classes running as follows at the Championships:

 

Group G: TTB, TTD, TTE, TTF

Group I: TTR, TTU, TTA, TTC

 

There will be no TTG class.

 

I'm not going to set any minimum lap times, per se, for the slower cars, but any car that appears to be a safety risk (whether too reckless or too slow), will be dealt with in a manner that results in an improved safety situation. However, I will say that if the fastest car in the G run group is doing low 1:40's or high 1:30's, and the typical range of TTF times is 1:52-1:58, a TTF car that is doing 2:10+ is likely to be considered a safety hazard.

 

I realize it's not as easy to say "Just deal with it" (a slower car) at Nationals as it is at the regional level, but I think this stinks, Greg.

 

I have not measured myself against TTB cars in my region (no need to!), and don't expect to be 20-30 seconds behind the fastest car in my group AFTER I HAVE LEARNED THE TRACK, but I haven't gone through all the trouble to qualify for Nationals and budget my time and money to participate in the event just to find out after I have arrived and been on the track that I might be punished for not being "fast enough." Besides, even if I were slow, I'm safe because I'm so damned predicable (look for me on the optimum frigging line, for goodness sakes).

 

If I had been informed that a minimum (maximum) qualifying time was going to be required, I could have made an informed decision about making all the effort and preparations. That was not part of the deal, and to announce it now is really "springing" it on us.

 

That all being said, I'm also waiting to hear what your proposed solution to DQing a "too slow" car is: there was nothing stated in the invitation to National Time Trials about meeting a speed/lap time standard, and although you can reimburse me financially for excluding me from the event, you will not be able to reimburse me the time I have taken from work to make my participation happen. There is also a possibility that you can generate some real negative opinions of the TT program.

[Greg G.]

Gimme a break, Dave. Willow Springs is a 2.2 mile, sub-1:30 second track for our fast guys. I can't imagine having a driver out there doing 2:10 plus. We consider any time slower than 1:50 to be too slow for the group. That's just not safe for what we are doing. Now, I really doubt that you will be doing 2:10+ at Mid-Ohio after you do your practice day (that's 30 seconds slower than TTC/TTB guys). We were doing considerably better than that in a low hp, heavy, rental car on street tires with an automatic transmission. And, even on a 3 mile track that you were new to, you weren't 30 seconds slower than the TTC/TTB guys. This is the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS. That means that the participants there shouldn't be more than 10% slower than the AVERAGE lap time for their class. That's not a rule, but it sure is common sense.

 

Now, perhaps you have to read what I said again. I'm not stating a specific lap time that anyone needs to meet, or a timeline for them to be at a minimum lap time or % of their class's best time. What I'm saying is that if a car is so slow that it is becoming a safety hazard, then I will do whatever I have to in order to protect that driver as well as the other 30 drivers on the track. And your statement that you (or any driver) are safe because you are always on the optimum line doesn't hold water if: 1) The slower car causes a huge increase in closing speeds, 2) The slower car uses "unpredictable" braking zones in tight sections of the track, 3) The slower car becomes a moving chicane for multiple cars to pass simultaneously, 4) The slower car doesn't help to make passing opportunities on a track where there are very limited passing zones, 5) The slower car is in one of the many "blind spots" on the track, and a faster car has to suddenly brake, lift, or make an evasive move in a turn.

 

It's my responsibility to see that every driver in TT has the safest "possible" environment to compete in. And, I would expect you to agree that if there is an anomylous safety hazard that can be avoided, that we do so. If that hazard happens to be an extremely off-pace car, then so be it. We would need to deal with that problem in some fashion at that time. There are plenty of rules in the CCR's that allow me to deal with safety issues. Have you never heard of a slow car getting black flagged in a race?

 

Anyway, if you are that worried about it, then it's up to you to reconsider your plans. I would think that you should be able to run safely there, but since you seem so concerned about it, I guess you need to make your own decisions. And as far as negative opinions about TT are concerned, there will be plenty if a slow moving, off-pace vehicle becomes the source of a car-car collision, or an on-track injury.

 

Also, for any of the drivers of slower cars, you may want to take a ride in a very fast car as a passenger some day to get some perspective on how much of a safety factor closing speeds can become, even when the slow car drives on line.