Tim Comeau Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Everybody's aware of this rule change for the 2004 season. Update both these items before Fontana. Yes, I know, it's more money. I've got to do it, too. But testing shows that 2 years is a more realistic lifespan for these items. I talked to the head guy at the SFI Foundation myself for the better part of an hour. I'm squarely behind this rule change. Keep it safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Some belts like my new Schroth's have an FIA stamp showing they are good to 2009! That's 5 years baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Is that acceptable to NASA? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Yep! Rules say FIA stamped belts are good to when the FIA stamp says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 Joe is right. That's what the rules say. However, The European FIA certified belts are made of the same polyester or nylon as the American SFI certified systems. There is significant degradation, proven through testing, of the webbing in as little as 2 years. That's why the rule has been changed in NASA and SCCA. Spend your money wisely. Educate yourself by going to the SFI Foundation website. I just gave a tech talk to the local Porsche Club on belts, after having researched this stuff. We'll all probably learn something new. http://www.sfifoundation.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Tim, I think this SFI stuff is crap. Yeah if it leave my harness in the sun and rain for two years it might not be too good, but who does that? There was alot of debate when SCCA when with the two year thing. Alot of talk about just the SFI trying to make us by more belts. Anyway NASA is going along with SFI. I can't blame them since they don't have and test data, but they ARE smart enough to align themselves to the idea that the SFI and FIA know better. So they default to SFI belts should be changed at the SFI recommended interval. FIA belts at the FIA recommended interval. My belts in fact carry BOTH stamps, but since the FIA says they meet their standard and that standard is good for 5 years and NASA says any belt meeting FIA standards with FIA stamp is good for 5 years it is good for 5 years. The FIA stamp actually has a "good to" date vs creation date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 Yep. I understand. But FIA testing standards are different and lower than SFI standards. SFI has had "data points"(test results) for years that suggest belts should be replaced more often. This comes straight from Arni Kunz at SFI. He told me that belts which have sat in a dark garage for 5 years, unused, failed testing. So, shouldn't we trust the guys who've done the testing? You pays yer money, you takes yer chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Tim, The SFI article says exposure to sunlinght and elements causes degredation. Here is their little 6-6 nylon graph. Seems to me that I should replace my belts every 6 months. 20% strength after 18 months? Either this chart is misleading or SFI is being neglent in requiuring replacement after 24 months. They should be replaced much sooner. All of this sounds fishy to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 I like a healthy dose of skepticism................ It's not so good for those of us on the purchasing end, is it? I asked Arni, why the hell they don't come up with some carbon fiber type material for the belts which doesn't degrade so quickly.............no good answer. Aren't helmet chin straps now made of some Kevlar material? If you can come up with something, Joe, I'll handle manufacturing them and we'll be rich. Anyway, the chart you posted shows the Nylon belts degrading 80% over just 2 years. The stiffer polyester belts, though initially weaker by some 15% - 20% than the Nylon, only degrade 50% over 2 years. That's still alot! Sun is only one element contributing to the degradation. Regular usage, stretching, sun, age, dirt, human oils, sweat. There's also stretching to consider. Nylon and polyester stretch at different rates. Nylon will stretch 25% -30% before snapping. Polyester will stretch 18% - 22% before snapping. (Again, straight from Kunz). Makes you wonder how far you should sit from the steering wheel, huh? It's critical to minimize the length of the webbing from camlock to anchor point. You want it to stretch some to help your body decellerate, but not so much that you hit things in the cockpit, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgrow Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I have an article (6/03) from the SCCA which summarized tests performed by DuPont and SFI. The tests show considerable degradation of all belt types (particularly nylon) due to sunlight and other factors. They also noted the differences between the SFI and FIA guidelines and testing procedures - though no difference in materials. The only thing I didn't see was any study or evidence that there was a problem and what results the new standards would provide. Have there been a statistically significant number of incidents relating to failed harnesses? Considering nylon is (according to the study) only 1/7th of its original strength after 2 years, I'd like to know what is an appropriate strength assuming an average degradation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 23, 2004 Author Share Posted February 23, 2004 Unknown if there's been a high number of failures. I'm not sure what would be a good "strength number" for the belts. But in light of this new info(new to me) I think I'm leaning towards getting a set of less expensive belts which can be rewebbed each year, keeping the same hardware. AUTOPOWER in San Diego does this for about $50.00. Simpson does it too, last time I heard. What do you guys think? Will this new rule really hurt the belt manufacturers with higher prices? SABELT, Schroth.? Or will it cause prices to come down? Maybe it will force them to make a more durable belt material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjgrow Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I think it will do two things: 1) drive business to FIA belts - get an FIA rating and you're good for 5 years and 2) create a more robust re-webbing business. The Scroth and other belts have much higher quality "hard parts" which begin to become more important when we start rewebbing. I don't think it will cause innovation in product design for two reasons. First, innovations are constrained by the market price - which in this case is the cost of re-webbing. Second, there is an absence of "problem". They simply mandated a change, which as Joe pointed out is somewhat odorous. Many people have opined on various boards as to the rationale yet I haven't seen anything supporting the rationale for the change. However, the evidence I've seen comes from a manufacturer of webbing material and of course the study conditions are somewhat extreme. Hmmm.... You would think that if the problem is so severe, the mandate would be first applied to the largest area of concern and potential benefit - street cars. Why am I not required to swap out my belts in my street cars??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec-944#70 Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Very good point Jeff. Street cars have no replacement criteria and they are even cheaper materials in both belt and hardware. Kidda makes you go Hmmmmm! Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeanutinCA Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Very good point Jeff. Street cars have no replacement criteria and they are even cheaper materials in both belt and hardware. Kidda makes you go Hmmmmm!Eric Yep and I'm constantly driving along the 405 at 125+ mph too!! Nah, I think everything is a scam to get people to spend more money so, I'll go with which ever is the easiest. Don't get me wrong, I already spent the $1K on a HANS because I learnt the hard way about neck injuries. But, as pointed out, where is the call for belt replacements due to incidents? Not sure that data is present and out there? P. Dilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I have heard that street belts are made from different material that makes much less sensitive to enviromental conditions. Probably good for street belts since there is low likelyhood that they would get change. I have heard of Aerospace application belts. Like in helicopters. They use a 5 year replacement and from what some guys in that field say get much harder enviroment use that most race belts. They have no issues. Schroth does make auto and avaition belts. Having used my schroth harness I really like it. hardware is much lighter than sparco stuff. Webbing is also different in feel. Not sure if different in material however. It really gives the appearance of a superior quality. Then again I don't know how much appearance is worth. From an appearance and feel stand point the Simpsons seem to be the bottom, Then sabelt/sparco's then schroths. Never seen a Willans upclose. Now that appearance of quality does not mean they are better, just seems that way. I am happy with Schroth so far. I bought it over the sabelt because of the FIA stamp. It was more money upfront, but good for 5 years will earn its value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted February 25, 2004 Share Posted February 25, 2004 Admittedly, I didn't read all of the information at the SFI website. Even so, I think this is fishy. The material properties used in the webbing in our belts has been known for decades, including degradation rates. If the counter-argument is that these material properties are newly discovered facts, then my question is what the heck have I been paying for over the years? If the counter-argument is that we are smarter now, then my question remains what the heck have I been paying for over the years? Given the strength of new webbing, is 20% of this strength not going to be able to restrain me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted February 25, 2004 Author Share Posted February 25, 2004 Keith, How hard is the crash you're going to be involved in? I was told by Arni Kunz at SFI that they've known for years that the belts degrade but didn't want to lessen the lifespan so drastically so soon. Jeff, good point about the street belts. Who knows? Joe, I love those Schroth belts. They're the best I've seen, though I haven't seen any Willans either. I like the sparco/sabelt camlock piece the best, even better than the Schroths. I'm contemplating making a hybrid system between the camlock and some new webbing. Hmmmmmmmmmm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted March 2, 2004 Author Share Posted March 2, 2004 Nope, AUTOPOWER will only use their own camlocks and webbing. It's an SFI thing. I'll pick up my new belts tomorrow. Then probably reweb them every year for $50.00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Comeau Posted March 3, 2004 Author Share Posted March 3, 2004 Ok, Got the new belts in there and fitted to me. Date stamps on the harness and net are good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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