Do we need a race car to get a competition license?

[Tuff240]

I have always read that to get a competition license we need a race car as well. What do we do if we plan on renting or co-driving and have no race car of our own? Shouldn't the official that approves a race license be able to tell if we are competent even if we are in our street car? I mean obviously we aren't going to be racing our street car. I just find it strange to have to rent or borrow a race car just to get our license. Licensing usually takes place in HPDE 4, correct?

 

Please enlighten me.

Thank you,

Patrick D.

[Al F.]

I can only speak from my experience, since I'm not an official or an instructor. The rulebook states four track days (HPDE), two of which must be in a race car. In my case I did the first two days in my Corvette (groups 1 the first day, 2 and 3 the second day) and the last two in my CMC car (both group 4).

 

I can't really speak about this requirement to drive a race prepared car. Technically some race prepared cars are much slower and easier to handle than some street legal cars. Regardless, the point the instructor drove home was that he didn't care how fast I was, rather how comfortable and safe I was in the car, particularly in heavy traffic. Most of my last day was spent with two instructors and I doing lead/follow sessions where they would purposely pass me, then slow so I could pass, even going three wide. I'm not sure I would've wanted to do that in my street car anyway!

 

If you're going to race, then seat time is the best thing you can buy...so buying a couple of days of practice is a very good thing to do.

[JKnight]

In my case I did the first two days in my Corvette (groups 1 the first day, 2 and 3 the second day) and the last two in my CMC car (both group 4).

 

This sounds like the accelerated track. I'm about to do my fifth or sixth weekend, and I'm thinking that I may have outgrown group 2. Then again I cling to bad habits and have a car that lets me get away with them.

 

Jason

[Tuff240]

Thanks for the reply Charger.

The main reason I ask is that I have been offered several co-drives over the years and have never been able to accept because of a lack of a competition license. I have done HPDE with NASA off and on for probably around 8-10 years. I raced karts for several years when I was younger and the side by side, bumper to bumper and wheel to wheel stuff I am very comfortable with.

 

You ever drive in Nor-cals HPDE 4? There are more occasions than not that you'd swear you were really racing....LOL. How about 3 wide from turn 2-3 at Sears (yeah, yeah, Infineon) and 2 wide through 3 and 3a in your street car?

 

Patrick D.

[bmw22]

Tuff240

 

If I were in your shoes, I would go to an SCCA double school weekend in a rented racecar. You should be able to rent a ride for less than $1000 for a weekend. All you need to do is drive safe and clean, pass the schools and there you go, you will have an SCCA novice license that yoy can race enduros on in SCCA and get your NASA license with. This would work well for you since you have so much HPDE seat time.

[Bernard]

Patrick:

 

Looks like you are not doing your reading assignments, although you've been doing HPDE on and off for 8-10 years, as you stated. Bad boy!

 

Joking aside, please go to the HPDE section of this forum, then read what I wrote in regard to "getting a competition license" on the 27th., just 5 days ago, under "HPDE passing rules." Okay, granted, how could you have guessed it's hidden in there? No way! That's why you've got to do the reading assignements, all of them, all of the time . . .

 

With kind regards,

 

Bernard

[Tuff240]

Bernard,

I did read each and EVERY post on this forum before I posted any of my questions.

 

My main question is if/why do we HAVE to have a race car to get a competition license? Which you did not answer in your post that you told me to read (I re-read it.). You did an excellent job explaining what to expect and how to drive in HPDE 4, but I didn't see anything specifically talking about getting your license in a street car. I see the part saying what the instructors expect of you as far as a safe driver. So in short, my question still applies.

 

bmw22,

In my opinion $1000+/- for a weekend just to get my license to race once or twice a year seems a bit steep to me. Of course, if I end up building a SpecE30 car (I want to, just waiting to see if it is going to take off in my region), all this is pretty much a moot conversation. But I haven't taken the plunge thus far, so I'm still curious.

 

Gotta run now, F1 replay is coming on !

 

Patrick D.

[Bernard]

Patrick:

 

Looks like I am really getting old and confused. I pointed you to the wrong place. I answered the question regarding licensing in "Ask a Question" under "How do I get a competition license." That thread has been moved to I don't know where, but if you click on it, you'll find it (just did it).

 

To be more specific, I don't see any reason why you would need a race car in order to pass the evaluation. You will need a car that is suited for competition. It has to be safe, and it should have a decent suspension and competition wheels and tires. If they let you run HPDE Group 4 with it, that should do the trick. If you have participated in various HPDE Group 4 events, just ask for an evaluation the next time you are at the track.

 

Regarding the "$1K" school, let me tell you that the SCCA Super School somebody else suggested has the advantage that it will get your foot in the door at not only SCCA, but also NASA, HSR West, VARA, and many other sanctioning bodies. It cost less than $500.00 for 2½ days with 6 full hours of track time!

The NASA school, as far as I remember, cost even less ($450.00?) for 2 days, but it is only good for NASA and the BMW Club.

All in all, you pay $150.00 more than for a regular HPDE weekend; but you get more track time, much more feedback, you learn something priceless, and you get your credentials at the same time.

 

For both schools, SCCA and NASA, it is not definitely not required to have a "real" race car; any car that is safe and suited for spirited driving will do.

[bmw22]

Bernard,

"For both schools, SCCA and NASA, it is not definitely not required to have a "real" race car; any car that is safe and suited for spirited driving will do"

 

If you recieved a comp license from SCCA or NASA without a real racecar, please tell us how you did it. A racecar is required by both sanctioning bodies for comp licensing schools.

 

Tuff240,

Not intending to be "mean spirited" but if you think that $1000 for a weekend of racecar rental is to steep, you may wish to reconsider getting a comp license. Racing isn't cheap, it never was and it never will be. Stick with HPDE. If you don't have the commitment level the it takes to race, don't, you and those other racers that would be on the track with you will be much more safe. Racing one or 2 times a year isn't enough seat time to keep you or any other racer sharp and race aware. That's true for the amateur or the seasoned pro. HPDE seat time doesn't compare to race seat time, in fact it probably works against you if you spend more track time in HPDE than racing.

[Ryan F.]

Some guys love to go back and forth.

 

1) Read the rule book. It clearly says that you need a race legal car for license eval in HPDE 4. This would be answered if you "READ THE RULE BOOK" (all of you)

 

2) Regions vary on licensing. Contact your specific region for class availablity. SoCal for example does a license school 3 times a year and we dont requre a race prepared car for that specific school. We work with http://www.drivingconcepts.com to run the course.

 

3) Never have I seen a NASA license be refused from any other org. Many of the top SCCA World Challenge drivers came from NASA ranks (Foo, Kirberg, Harvey, etc) If you get a NASA license first, SCCA will stick their nose in the air but they will take your money.

[Bernard]

Ryan:

 

No disrespect intended, Sir, but I feel I need to respond to your post.

 

1) I wish there was a NASA "rule book" available, like it is the case with . . . uhhh . . . SCCA's GCR. A book, you know, something you can buy, touch, feel, open up, and look stuff up in. Accessing NASA's CCR online, via Adobe's software, is more than inconvenient. And, while we're at it, should you ever decide to print the CCR, allow me to volunteer to proof-read it first. In its current form the document is a grammatical desaster, arbitrary and factually plain wrong in many statements used, and painful to read. Seriously. Please forgive me for being so frank.

 

2) "Race Car," by definition (CCR 1.4.2), is a car " . . . . possessing adequate safety equipment to meet the standards for a given type of contest."

As a lawyer I am fairly qualified and experienced in interpreting this appropriately. For example, I am declined to state that a (showroom) stock vehicle that is safe, i.e., a Mazda Miata or even a Volvo 242, with a master switch, a roll cage, a driver's seat and tires "suited for competion," an approved safety harness, a fire extinguisher, and the required markings, is indeed a "race car." It will fit in some race group, at least on paper. A race car might as well be street legal and driven on public roads, as it is the case with quite a few competition vehicles. So what's the point you were trying to make?

 

3) As much as it sadens me and as much as I like and respect Carl and Driving Concepts, being a graduate myself, SCCA will not accept a NASA competition license and convert it into even a rookie permit. Fair? No, certainly not. My guess is that some people at SCCA try to make it as difficult as possible for NASA and people associated with it to succeed anywhere else. Of course they will take all the money they can get from someone interested to compete within the SCCA framework; they will send him or her to an SCCA-approved school. The best someone with a NASA Competition License can hope for when knocking at SCCA's door is to get the second day of Super School waived.

To your defense, however, I must admit that SCCA will accept somebody who has a documented competition history. Therefore, in theory, it is true that someone with "only" a NASA license can--eventually--apply for an SCCA license purely based on experience. But, again, a fresh NASA Competition License alone is not sufficient, whereas a fresh SCCA Regional License (correct me if I'm wrong) will in almost all instances be converted into a NASA Competion License. And I am glad that NASA is more liberal than SCCA in this regard.

 

NASA has achieved a lot in the past few years; I hope it will become as powerful as SCCA one day. Having competition is a good thing. Always!

 

With kind regards,

[bmw22]

Bernard

 

1. Press the print button while you have the ccr open on your PC. Saves you $25, saves NASA $$$ in manhours, shipping, printing, and every headache that goes along with publishing a book. You must not race in SCCA or you would realize that the GCR isn't as sim-le as you describe it. Ever month the SCCA makes changes to it which you must keep track of. Having it online allows realtime updates that everyone can access.

 

2 What point are you trying to make? You obviuosly don't know what your talking about as evidenced in a previous post where you state that a comp,license can be obtained in NASA and SCCA without a racecar. "As a lawyer...yada yada yada..." Give me a friggin break, the rules are in plain black and white and there is nothing confusing about them that requires your great legal mind to clarify for the rest of us backwoods hillbillies.

 

3 The SCCA is quite flexible on licensing matters. If a racer with a NASA novice license were to contact their divisional SCCA licensing chairman and submit a resume of there race/HPDE/Nasa comp school experience, they will mget at least one of their two schools waived. SCCA schools are quite different from NASA schools, not better, not worse, just different. Nasa has a step by step approach and SCCA has a learn it as you do it approach. Being involved in both, I like elements of each on. Using terms like biased or un fair is correct. The two clubs look at it from two perspectives. NASA is the new kid on the block and just wants participants and has no reason to reject a licensed SCCA racer. The SCCA on the other hand has tens of thousands of members, thousands of licensed racers and procedures that have been in place for decades. They have no need to accept a racer from NASA, so why not make sure that anyone coming from NASA conforms to SCCA proven methods. As NASA grows, this will start to change. Besides, the SCCA is doing everything it can to shoot itself in the foot. It's kinf of interesting to watch.

[NASA Jim]

You can order a CCR. Contact the National Office and they will be happy to sell you one.

[Ryan F.]

With regard to the CCR-

We make it available for FREE to everyone. Members and non members to access and print out. You can also call the office if you don't want to use the printer paper and we can send you one for a $20 fee. If you think the grammar sucks then I will take you up on your offer to edit (as long as you don't charge) since a few other helpful members help proof every year but if it is not yet up to par than please join the fun.

 

@ License

We *normally* let SCCA rookie license holders race but often times they are told after practice that they need to go in HPDE since they are not ready. Some folks of course are just fine but the point is that the regional director has the option to allow or disallow a rookie and make the call. The NASA rule book does not state that we will accept SCCA/etc rookies either. My point was not that SCCA would recognize a NASA rookie or should. Most racing orgs take responsibility of thier own until they are proven to be competent. My point was that I have seen SCCA accept NASA licensed racers many times. We happily accept other fully licensed racers as I have seen others do with NASA. I have been involved with many NASA racers getting thier SCCA license and I have not yet experienced any being turned down. Then again, a new NASA driver normally has twice the racing experience since we always do 2 races a weekend and most of our guys have years of HPDE. I don't see why they would if a drivers wants to give them money and go run with them.