warrtalon Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 Bah, so where did this rule come from and why? I understand not allowing direct methanol/alcohol fuels, but that's nothing like meth or alky injection. It's just like water injection except with a better fluid for making power. I just went through this whole ordeal with not being able to use it in SCCA auto-x, but then found that it was ok in NASA for the track. Now, it's suddenly not allowed, or was it not allowed previously and I missed it? My regional leaders said it was fine (this year). My alky kit is an integral part of my car and its setup. I'd like to know why this was made illegal, and then if that rule stands, there will need to be methods created for determining if someone is using water, alky, meth, water+meth, water+alky, washer fluid, etc. etc. as well as a standard method for ensuring that someone with such a kit installed (like me) has it disabled but not removed. I can't very well remove and re-install the entire alky injection system every time. Yuck, just when I thought the rules were awesome, someone pointed this out. PS. It only specifies "no methanol injection" and does not say "no alcohol injection." I don't use meth, and other people don't use either meth or denatured alcohol, but rather washer fluid or a mixture of water and something else. I'm just assuming that anything injected other than water was IMPLIED within rule 26, but I'd like clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbyevo Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I saw that. I'm glad I ditched mine last spring. Did you ever make any headway with the SCCA or did you end up giving up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrtalon Posted December 12, 2006 Author Share Posted December 12, 2006 I saw that. I'm glad I ditched mine last spring. Did you ever make any headway with the SCCA or did you end up giving up? No luck, but they let me turn it off and show that it was disconnected during tech inspection. In turn, I compensated by adding race gas and retuning myself with an SAFC that I would only use during events. Now, though, I have a separate custom flash for auto-x and race gas, so I don't have to mess with the SAFC anymore. I can do the same thing in time trials and make the same power, but they will need to come up with some additional rules or compromises for those of us who have it. I'd also like to hear the reasoning for not allowing it yet allowing nitrous. I know N2O is only in TTR, but still...how can you allow that but not allow simple alcohol injection. I'm trying to make sure they don't think it's the same as running alcohol fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 12, 2006 National Staff Share Posted December 12, 2006 I saw that. I'm glad I ditched mine last spring. Did you ever make any headway with the SCCA or did you end up giving up? No luck, but they let me turn it off and show that it was disconnected during tech inspection. In turn, I compensated by adding race gas and retuning myself with an SAFC that I would only use during events. Now, though, I have a separate custom flash for auto-x and race gas, so I don't have to mess with the SAFC anymore. I can do the same thing in time trials and make the same power, but they will need to come up with some additional rules or compromises for those of us who have it. I'd also like to hear the reasoning for not allowing it yet allowing nitrous. I know N2O is only in TTR, but still...how can you allow that but not allow simple alcohol injection. I'm trying to make sure they don't think it's the same as running alcohol fuel. Yes, we realize that it's not the same as running alcohol fuel, but there is still a 1/2 liter to liter of highly flamable, clear burning "fuel" in the car, and NASA didn't want their cars running it in TT/PT. Also, it would be difficult to assess for points. The rule was the same in '06--no changes made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrtalon Posted December 12, 2006 Author Share Posted December 12, 2006 Denatured alcohol (what I use) does not burn clear - that's only methanol - and alcohol injection is not specified as not being allowed (yet). This will need to be clarified along with washer fluid and other alcohol-based fluids that people use for "water injection." As far as points, it's like running race gas - do you assess points for that? I never knew why WI was +6 anyway when it's LESS effective than race gas. Mine is permanently installed in the car, so I'll need a provision for being able to do time trials with the system in the car and not active. It's EXTREMELY disappointing that it's not being allowed when it's such a basic and simple modification for turbo'd cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhakar Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I saw that. I'm glad I ditched mine last spring. Did you ever make any headway with the SCCA or did you end up giving up? No luck, but they let me turn it off and show that it was disconnected during tech inspection. In turn, I compensated by adding race gas and retuning myself with an SAFC that I would only use during events. Now, though, I have a separate custom flash for auto-x and race gas, so I don't have to mess with the SAFC anymore. I can do the same thing in time trials and make the same power, but they will need to come up with some additional rules or compromises for those of us who have it. I'd also like to hear the reasoning for not allowing it yet allowing nitrous. I know N2O is only in TTR, but still...how can you allow that but not allow simple alcohol injection. I'm trying to make sure they don't think it's the same as running alcohol fuel. Yes, we realize that it's not the same as running alcohol fuel, but there is still a 1/2 liter to liter of highly flamable, clear burning "fuel" in the car, and NASA didn't want their cars running it in TT/PT. Also, it would be difficult to assess for points. The rule was the same in '06--no changes made. Have you ever tried to set windshield washer fluid on fire? That would be about the same as a 50/50 water/meth mix. Before you ask, yes you can test the mix % with some simple float tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaWorstPlaya Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I believe, its a safety concern that the SCCA and NASA don't want to deal with. I'm sure they have researched the subject thoroughly and weighed both the pros and cons and decided against its use. You could just change your ECU maps to run water injection, instead of alcohol. So you lose a little power ... no biggie ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrtalon Posted December 12, 2006 Author Share Posted December 12, 2006 I believe, its a safety concern that the SCCA and NASA don't want to deal with. I'm sure they have researched the subject thoroughly and weighed both the pros and cons and decided against its use. You could just change your ECU maps to run water injection, instead of alcohol. So you lose a little power ... no biggie ... The retune isn't the big deal - it's cleansing the entire system of any trace of alcohol from the tank to the nozzle then switching back each time. I can make as much, if not more power with race gas, but the expense is great. If I understood the safety concern, then I would not object. It's nowhere near as dangerous as nitrous, which is allowed, and my alcohol doesn't burn with a clear flame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrtalon Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 Aha, here's the change as far as I know: 25) Water injection system +6 (An alcohol-water mixture is permitted, but the driver must notify Race Control and Safety that it is being used.) No change to the methanol injection rule later in the rules, but that one doesn't apply. This one covers me nicely. Excellent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaWorstPlaya Posted December 19, 2006 Share Posted December 19, 2006 So are you going to switch to using alcohol-water (windsheild wiper fluid) instead of straight alcohol injection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrtalon Posted December 19, 2006 Author Share Posted December 19, 2006 So are you going to switch to using alcohol-water (windsheild wiper fluid) instead of straight alcohol injection? No, I won't use wiper fluid, but I can mix in distilled water with my denatured alky, if necessary. Greg will still have to clarify the part about mixing, but the basic tenet is that using methanol is not allowed, but using denatured alcohol is allowed as long as I notify the safety personnel beforehand. I use denatured alky instead of meth now anyway, so I won't change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 20, 2006 National Staff Share Posted December 20, 2006 I did not want to specify a mixture pecentage. But a mixture is a mixture--so you must have "some" water in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrtalon Posted December 20, 2006 Author Share Posted December 20, 2006 I did not want to specify a mixture pecentage. But a mixture is a mixture--so you must have "some" water in there. Alrighty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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