AI Coupe Driver Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 Just wondering what everyone has to say about what brakes set-up is working (or not) for them. Use the stock power booster, remove it and go with no power or is there a middle ground set-up that is working. Car is a 90 Fox body. I now have the Cobra brakes set-up F & R but that might (probably) change down the road. My prior experience in small production cars (EP, FP) was NO power assist. If you want to share your set-up (single or dual master cylinders, power, no power, brand of custom applications etc) and what brakes you are running and how happy you are with them I would appreciate it. And while we're at it... power steering or not? I sure would appreciate some detailed information! Thanks, happy holidays! Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted December 21, 2006 Share Posted December 21, 2006 I've done all of the above as far as brakes. Power brakes do not belong in a race car. Power steering you keep for these cars. Dual m/c is the best, but that requires a lot of work. You can convert your single m/c to manual with the proper parts. When I did it I had to gather all the parts necessary, but MM now offers a kit that looks pretty nice. You can also use that same setup with duals if you install the part from cnc. I personally prefer a custom pedal setup for various reasons. Good luck! -C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 The MM manual kit works great for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 No power brakes. Put nice thick 14†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I am a fan of recirculator, but other than the 34 car I never ran a car with other add on to dampen the rear brakes. As I remember it, even with that on there, the 34 car still had a bias knob and I still had some rear wheel lockup if not carefull when braking on the bumpy back straight at T-Hill just prior to getting on the front. I had suggested simply building a longer torque arm which I believe has been done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AI Coupe Driver Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 Thanks and PLEASE keep the infor coming... so far NO power brake booster. I see that MM has a 1 and a 1 1/8 bore master cylinder... what do you think is the proper way to go with the Cobra brakes I'm currently running? I'm going to try to get through the first year and licensing with the Cobras but know the first MAJOR ($) mod will be a big brake set up. From what I see that looks like 4 to 6 grand... Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 I use a 1 1/8 bore, but I dont like a lot of pedal travel, so that works out perfect for me. The MM kit changes the pivot point on the pedal, so I didn't see a big difference in the pedal effort, even with a 1 1/8 bore. Plus you gain a TON of clearance under the hood where the booster was. The KRC pump is the way to go for the power steering. It is a little sluggish in the pits at 800 RPM, but on the track it is perfect. You can also change the boost on the pump if you don't like it - see the MM web site, they have a nice P.S. kit with a KRC pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdkline Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Just to be contrary No power steering and keep the power brakes( although I agree about the having more room with the booster gone). Our new car with a KSE combo pump feels numb in comparison to the SN95 car with a manual rack. Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 What kind of manual rack did you have on the SN95? The stock ones are a really slow ratio compared to power, but I do know some people like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 (edited) I used the Flaming River Quick ratio - hard to manage in the paddock but awesome on the track. I have had power and manual brakes - loved both but manual takes getting used to - but then again so does manual steering. FYI - my last car had manual/manual, my current car is power/power but my next car is manual/manual. Edited December 22, 2006 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdkline Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 The rack is a quick ratio rack from Flaming River. I don't remember the part number but it was a stocking item from them. Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AI Coupe Driver Posted December 23, 2006 Author Share Posted December 23, 2006 "Our new car with a KSE combo pump feels numb in comparison to the SN95 car with a manual rack"... so are you saying the "KSE" combo (is this the same as the power steering kit MM offers) is not the way to go but the manual (Flaming River) has a better real time feel? "Numb" to me doesn't sound like something I want. Thanks, Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdkline Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 The factory power steering was "overboosted" and if the wheel got away from you it was hard to know where the wheels were,and feel through the wheel was very poor. The manual rack provides unbelievable feel for what the tires are doing and where they are at. But you better eat your Wheaties every morning as steering effort is very high. Some fooling around with alignment settings can minimize (or at least reduce) that. I don't know if the KSE pump that I have is the same one you are talking about but most of them are "tunable" for the amount of assist by making some internal changes. Feel wise, the KSE pump with the stock Ford p/s rack is somewhere between the other two. Very little boost at low speeds, with good feedback, but as engine speed increases feel goes away as assist comes up. The KSE pump that we are using is a power steering/fuel pump combo. Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted December 23, 2006 Share Posted December 23, 2006 V, The bias knob was rendered useless when the recirculation system was installed. The wheel hop under heavy braking was the result of your not using the clutch when downshifting which would have allowed you to match the revs and smoothed things out. One must adapt. Remember it was only the second time you drove the car. We never changed the torque arm design but Chris Alston has. It is however the same length again as a result of being a compromise design for use in street applications…exhaust clearance and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trackboss Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 Dana, I actually find it easier to match revs when I can dedicate my left foot to brakes and my right foot to throttle. Believe me, the car told me if I didn't match revs. Actually the only time I had trouble was before I found out I didn't have to use the clutch and tried to heel/toe the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted December 24, 2006 Share Posted December 24, 2006 V, Yeah I know…some people can only do one thing with a foot at a time. Actually there was a time when I never used my left foot for any kind of braking but now use left foot braking in turns that don’t require down shifting. The reason Terry and I used the clutch during hard late braking with the 34 car was because of the short torque arm and the tendency for wheel hop. You could modulate the clutch just enough to disengage the rear wheels just enough to inhibit wheel hop while still keeping on the binders hard. Your drive a TH in that race still sticks in my mind as a rather epic drive. Second time in a an unfamiliar car…power steering belt comes off at the start…you drive the whole race with a non assisted power steering car…a driver who shall remain nameless made himself a moving chicane or you would have finished second or maybe even won…and you kept your cool enough not to take him or yourself out…I was amazed at your patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobraracer66 Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Good job I love to hear stories like that. Sorry I am reading/posting too much,I just had a minor surgury and am on restricted garage work. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKeyserSoze Posted January 20, 2007 Share Posted January 20, 2007 I drive a Factory Five Cobra in the FFC Challenge Series in Florida. The FFC series requires manual brakes and I raced the car for a year that way. YOU MUST BE CRAZY IF YOU ELECT TO RUN MANUAL BRAKES. I'd put power brakes on in a flash if they were legal. We are required to run stock Mustang 87-93 junk brakes, to the extent that helps. I run a 93 Cobra master cylinder. I was going to pull the power steering off (in my 2400 pound car, mind you), but elected to leave that on, too. It only costs 3-4 horsepower, and I run a 3 inch crank pulley, 4 inch alternator pulley, underdrive water pump pulley and a big frisbee power steering pump pulley. The power steering does not do much until about 2500rpm, but the car is always in that range anyhow. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 BigKeyserSoze, Uhhhhh…I respectfully disagree. Power brakes have no place in a racing only car. A power brake booster does nothing but add extra weight add complexity and take up valuable space. He is building an AIX car which means brakes are unlimited. With the proper match of master cylinder, rotors, brake pads etc. there is no reason for power brakes…unless maybe his leg has the strength of a 90 year old granny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 …and now for a few more thoughts on power steering. I listen to and read a lot of drivers talking and writing about “feedback†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Like my 19 year old daughter says , I may be blonde , but I'm ahead of you . . Nice FAST words XAIX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdkline Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I don't believe that it's not important to have a significant amount of feedback in your steering and/or brake systems. If a driver is numb to what the car is telling him, he will never run consistantly near the limits of the car. Taking away the assist in the steering system allowed me to get closer to my cars edge. It dampened out my tendancy to "worry" the steering wheel making constant steering corrections and made me more aware of getting the line correct. At speed the effort is really not that high as the wheel is really not being turned that far. I agree that its important to not hook your thumbs around the wheel but thats a habbit that would be good to have even on a car with p/s as the wheel will still rotate in a collision. I carry that habbit with me from my dirt track days, in the dirt track cataloges you will find solid hub steering wheels to prevent the driver from doing it. Out in the shop we have 2 cars, 1 with p/s and 1 w/o, I still prefer the one without. Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Barry, First lets back up a bit. My last response was in regards to steering and not brakes. I agree that brakes are one place where “feel†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I agree with XAIX. Manual brakes are much more linear and easier to control at the limit. Power steering is a must with my car with the wide offset and huge tires in the front. If you go with a pump that is not overboosted, like the KRC, the steering response is great. I cannot drive my car with no power steering. I pulled off at Road America after one lap of fighting it. I felt it was too unsafe. You cannot tell me that you can get out of a tank slapper with manual steering with a setup similar to my car with a bunch of tire, caster, and offset. You just won't be able to respond fast enough. Unless you are a driver that never drives aggressive enough to get into trouble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGZOSTD Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 To All , Check me if I'm wrong but I have from other forms of racing learned to let the car comunicate to me through my back side , the one mom used when I was out of order . Even with rather small 275 , and stock power stearing , I have no trouble feeling each corner of the car . and for Griz and XAIX , I would gather that to run any real meat on the front of a Mustang and stay within the width limits you need to ditch the struts . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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