2007 944 spec rules are out!

[rsrdan]

boy ,am i glad im a cupper!!..I use to respect the 944 spec rules,but it has gotten out of hand..i do pity you guys that have to go backwards and spend money.try and find an 88' stock chip,headers,etc...hope they iron out the delrin issue,as poly will no way hold up with the front A arms.I dont like the shocks either! I also have ak 1110/1111 and rears to match(?)and was thinking of running 944 spec over here on the east coast,but now.....no way!!! Good luck guys ....... DD and Cup RULES!!!

[n wright]

Wow, truly diasppointing how these new rules have screwed many of the guys that are actually running the cars now.

 

I took the new spec car out to POC early this month to shake it down. Looks like I'm gonna have to tear it down instead if I want to run NASA.

 

No delrin bushings?? Makes no sense to me when you can replace torsion bars and have to pull the rear assembly. Why not update the 20 yo crappy stuff that's there while your in.

 

The $220 MSDS Headers will have to go along with the $250.00 exhaust stytem from that point back that was installed to mate up to the collector. No performance advantage just nice, clean, new stuff instead. Oh, guess that $150.00 chip that will prevent detonation on pump gas with the slightly raised compression, due to the allowed head shave is out too.

 

The car is gonna get uglier if rule 16.1.7 means I have to put back the ugly, bulky, black bumper pads. Speaking of ugly, I got rid of the early dashboard and updated to a late style. In the process, I replaced the gauges with aftermarket for everything. Is this also illegal? For me it was just easier to replace rather than try to make the late pod work with the early stuff.

 

Fuel cell. Talk about expensive and unsafe. I spent about 2K on a cell for my turbo car due to a 911 based POC rule. After several 944 Turbo racers lef, the rules guys came to their senses and changed the rule for 944's only in the red group. The expensive cell came out and a snappy stock one went right back in. I doubt many guys will run one. It's stupid for these cars.

 

Well, while typing this useless post, I've decided I like the car the way it is (except for putting in the $1000.00 lsd I have waiting for me, and the resulting short 5th gear swap from my existing tranny, that will cost $200.00 in labor not including removal and installation of the unit itself, and not including the $500.00 paid for the short 5th tranny to start with. Oh, not including the labor to remove and re-install units).

 

I got my ass handed to me by the guys with currently legal cars. But hey, I figure if I legally dump about 2K more into the tranny I'll be right there! As everyone knows, the lsd and short 5th do make a difference.

 

See you at the next POC event!

[mfoley]

Looks like Tim got his way. Too bad!

 

I wonder what the series directors will do when somebody shows up with a crew chief and a mechanic for every race. If you think optimizing your set up for every track won't make a huge difference, you're naive. A crew chief will make a big difference too. I lost at least one race this year because I didn't have a radio. If you think money won't play a big part in this series at nationals, you're naive.

 

I'm mostly dissapointed that the cars will slow down. Headers and chips are trivial compared to where money can be spent on racing these cars.

 

Expensive is a relative thing. If you want cheap racing, stick to computer games.

[mfoley]

Stock bumper pads ... too funny. Now this is a necessary rule that keeps the cost down. Very nice. Who's bright idea was that Tim?

[PeanutinCA]

Ray D, you are the bomb!!! When are we having an Atari night?

[Sterling Doc]

As an incoming racer, I do appreciate the new rules, and the stability though 2009.

 

I realize it's impossible to make everyone happy, but I am still amazed at the level of griping and groundless wild speculation about what will come next (i.e changing rollbar tubing sizes, suddenly requiring motor rebuilds to run up front ).

 

The changes were few, and very much in keeping with the spirit of the class:

 

The chip and headers *may* not do much now, but having them unrestricted very much opens up the potential for lots of money to go into custom setup that could give a real advantage. By specifying a stock setup, there will be no need to change this later when the after market options do become a problem Just look at spec Miata. The few engine mods allowed there have made 4-7K pro built motors essential to be competitive. This was a smart move to ensure future stabilty in the rules.

 

Lexan side windows is a nice concession to keep our cars dry, and is a non-issue with regards to racing. Having them gives no advantage, and you're free to not have them if you want.

 

The batteries are a small issue and expense, at worst.

 

The jury is still out on the bushings...

 

The LSD is something that came stock on some of the 944's, and so far stock items have not been outlawed.

 

Nobody has to run a fuel cell, and few probably will, but with the 944's tank having a propensity to crack, and knowing what a PIA it is to fix that, having the option of going to a fuel cell is a nice one.

 

Another issue that no one has brought up is that you can sell the few items that may have to come off - like the chip and header, which would likely cover the cost of getting the "spec" parts, while the reverse is not as true for those building cars.

Edited December 30, 2006 by Guest

[PeanutinCA]

Another issue that no one has brought up is that you can sell the few items that may have to come off - like the chip and header, which would likely cover the cost of getting the "spec" parts, while the reverse is not as true for those building cars.

 

Honestly, no offense intended Sterling, but what your saying is, pay $650 for Stahl headers, sell them for maybe $300 used, to buy $100 stock headers, net cost of stock headers $650-$300+$100=$450 for stock headers does not make anyone happy. That argument is at best a consulation for people that are happy with the changes.

[Sterling Doc]

Another issue that no one has brought up is that you can sell the few items that may have to come off - like the chip and header, which would likely cover the cost of getting the "spec" parts, while the reverse is not as true for those building cars.

 

Honestly, no offense intended Sterling, but what your saying is, pay $650 for Stahl headers, sell them for maybe $300 used, to buy $100 stock headers, net cost of stock headers $650-$300+$100=$450 for stock headers does not make anyone happy. That argument is at best a consulation for people that are happy with the changes.

 

No offense taken, but changing the rule now affects only a few one time, whereas leaving it as is means $650 headers for years to come for everyone who builds a new car vs 0$ - that makes me & the people building cars to get this class going in the midwest very happy.

 

I agree it sucks to be in your position, but its the right thing to do for the class as a whole, especially looking into the future.

[wildbill846]

Well, the philosophy of 944 Spec is definitely being held to---creating equal cars. If these cars need to keep being re-created, however, it defeats what many people thought was a benefit of equal cars----lower cost. I don't anticipate that NASA will be constantly changing the spec rules, but it seems counterproductive at this time to make the rules more restrictive while they are trying to increase participation. I don't anticipate any of these changes to be the deciding factor in "recruiting" newcomers, but you can see it is causing discontent among current racers with now illegal cars.

 

Some may start to see how the 944 Cup philosophy differs now---bring as many 944's together to race and equalize prep levels through weight. It's much easier to bring what you have and just race in 944 Cup, which I believe has led to it being one of the largest race groups with NASA on the East Coast. Maybe we've just been lucky, or maybe Dave is just that good, but we've enjoyed close, fun racing despite the different prep levels to choose from. With 944 cup now accepted at the national level, I can see that to continue to grow.

 

I love the idea behind 944 Spec, but the benefits of it won't be seen for some time, especially if it keeps "evolving". Hopefully there will still be some of these cars of the 80's left by the time its settled down.

 

Bill Howlett

[Chuck T.]

I wonder what the series directors will do when somebody shows up with a crew chief and a mechanic for every race.

 

One point to make sure we are clear on... We only have one series director. We have regional directors in Socal, Norcal, Az, and me in Rocky Mountain. The rules for "944 Challenge" are not controlled by Tim, Joe, Ken or Chuck.

 

Chuck

a 944 race car .... #67

[mfoley]

Sterling,

 

I've been racing my car for a couple of years now and I know to run up front you will need a better than stock LSD, so get your check book out now. If you think you can run a stock unit, you will have to rebuild it. Remember, these are old cars. If you rebuild a stock unit, you will spend as much as an aftermarket LSD and it won't be nearly as good as the aftermarket one.

 

You could choose to wait for 3 years when all LSDs will be outlawed ... don't think you're safe just because you're building your car now. If they've changed the rules once (with all good intentions) they will probably do it again.

[Weston]

As an incoming 944-spec racer, I am happy that they are trying to keep the cars equal and the costs down, but I am also a little disappointed that the cars will be getting a little slower as a result. Can't have it both ways though.

 

As for the ban on non-stock DME chips, it kills some of my plans, but that rule change is entirely understandable, IMO. From what I've seen, the brand-name chips are pretty over-priced (and still just a generic "tune"), and there doesn't appear to be any free or cheap DIY editting tools available. This gives the advantage to people with either a bigger budget or the programming skills to make their own custom chip. Not to mention the cost of dyno time to tune it to perfection. Aftermarket chips generally aren't anything special, but a custom dyno-tuned chip would be a significant advantage, especially when the 2007 CCR looks like it would allow us to run E85 fuel (which you pretty much need a custom chip to take advantage of).

 

So much for my plans to be the fastest guy in last place. I suppose I'll just have to put the effort into my driving instead...

[Sterling Doc]

Sterling,

 

I've been racing my car for a couple of years now and I know to run up front you will need a better than stock LSD, so get your check book out now. If you think you can run a stock unit, you will have to rebuild it. Remember, these are old cars. If you rebuild a stock unit, you will spend as much as an aftermarket LSD and it won't be nearly as good as the aftermarket one.

 

You could choose to wait for 3 years when all LSDs will be outlawed ... don't think you're safe just because you're building your car now. If they've changed the rules once (with all good intentions) they will probably do it again.

 

Fair enough, I agree that allowing aftermarket LSD's is not cheap or OE, and thus not in keeping with the classes' intention. I hope I've got a few years to run competitevely without an LSD in our fledgling midwest spec program, by then this will be decided.

[Spec-944#70]

While I agree the rules should have been tighter years ago, and that was the time to do it. Now is just upsetting the apple cart.

Now for all of you who are upset about the new rule changes the solution is easy! Give Dave D a call to see how your car places in Cup. Leave Spec and go somewhere else. The POC probably won't change the rules to slow the cars down so you can always run there.

To point out the "our" directors don't make the rules is a load of crap! These are the rule TC has been suggesting and if he and others didn't go patition them they never would have been done. Only time will tell if NASA made a wise choice. The big problem is you have upset the very guys who showed up to race. Now you are going to be waiting for guys to hopefully finish thier cars and then work on getting lic.

Luckily the guy who bought my car it didn't have the delrins yet and hopefully he didn't put them in. He will need to redo the exhaust though as it's now illegal. I kept the stock chip and the car has it so that will be an easy swap and I used a normal car battery so he's safe there too! Oh someone will need to find him the front bumper pads as he's illegal there too! Luckily I have the stock side view mirrors in the stock locations.

It's just a real shame the couple of Spec cars for sale out there are illegal!! Sorry Mike and Bill. You'll have to lower the price or get them into the "new" Spec config.

Ray I have a rotory dial phone I can sell you!!!

PD is right about the LSD. Biggest single expense and it's still legal. (for now!)

The main fact is these motors will need work and unless you have the tools and/or time to do it your self it'll cost. Joe not everyone here has a dad thats a retired MB mechanic. Great as he is and as nice as he is that sure is a benefit only you have. I did my motor myself at a shop and it took about 80 hours of my labor. So in reality it took 2 months to complete. You will still need dyno time to make sure you have all of the parts working to their best. fresh heads along with testing AFM, headers (stock ones) DME's. You should have also at this time disallowed 924S's for the "aero" benefit and 88 cars for the HP differential. Now the 88's have just become the car to have!!!!

[mfoley]

Sterling,

 

I forgot to mention that my car is a ton more fun to drive since I got the LSD . It's more fun coming out of corners and it's more fun under braking.

[Chuck T.]

To point out the "our" directors don't make the rules is a load of crap! These are the rule TC has been suggesting and if he and others didn't go patition them they never would have been done.

 

"A LOAD OF CRAP" !!!!!!! Let me be clear hear I WAS NOT ASKED WHAT I THOUGHT OF THE NEW RULES. I DID NOT VOTE OR HAVE ANY SAY IN THE NEW RULES FOR 944-SPEC. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TIM THEN SAY "TIM" . DON'T SAY "our directors". I was trying to be nice about it when Mark wrote it I guess I could have been more to the point.

 

And I will never get rid of my PC jr or my Vic 20.

 

Chuck

[Spec-944#70]

You are right Chuck! I forgot there are other Directors out there and I do appologize to you and any of the other Directors not involved with the rule changes. I am truely sorry. But you are right and that it was TC's doing. We'll just have to wait and see if this is good for the class! I do find it hilarious that the "Delrin" ban effects him.

[Chuck T.]

Thank you

[Packfill]

I do find it hilarious that the "Delrin" ban effects him.

 

I think this is the rule that TIm and Joe are trying to get changed....

[944spec92]

After tossing and turning all night, I just couldn't live with myself any more. I feel so ashamed and so guilty. I have to apologize to everyone involved especially those it affected the most. It was either making this confession or going down into the garage and taking a large stack of $10 and $20 bills (instead of a smaller stack of $50 and $100 bills because I too trully believe there is a place for cheap and equal racing) and ripping them up and tossing the scraps over my beloved 944spec race car. Cause when you really think about it, that is what we all do anyway, lap after lap.

 

Back to my confession of sins. Yes, it was me. I'm sorry. I'm truly, truly sorry. While diverting everyone's attention with posts about wanting lexan windshields, describing my BVD data acquisition sytem and logger (happy to post a jpg image of the last actual skid mark found after a late braking maneuver while parking the car in the paddock)(sorry, my system does not have a turn by turn graphical breakdown - it's more of a cumulative effect that you may be analyzing) I was actually lobbying, politicking, and cajoling, while calling on the real decision makers. Even signing them up for the fruit of the month club as a special gift and thank you. I even considered taking them on a junket or two the entertain them and their families while talking serious NASA new for 2007 944spec rules.

 

Well, I got it done. It was done behind everyone's back. No one knew about it. No one really had a chance to provide any seasoned input, feedback. thoughts and ideas, concerns, pros and cons. But mind you, since it was suspected that some of our regional directors may, just may have delrin bushings on their cars (don't know for sure and don't really care and some others may also have them but they are faster than me because of delrin and not the 45 track days they have in 2006) I was succesfully able to get the delrin bushings outlawed and this proclamation included in the new 2007 rules. Yeah me!

 

So, how does that feel? Probably makes you bummed about the time, money, and effort you may have put in to your car. But wait, their point can be made that it was within the rules. So, how does that feel?

 

Yes, Jim "I think this is the rule that TIm and Joe are trying to get changed...." Sorry. Too late for that. Rules have been published and some may already been scouring the junkyards for stock header, the light non-cracked ones to corner that market.

 

Yes, Eric "I do find it hilarious that the "Delrin" ban effects him." Me too. But it is sad also. May cost them lots of shade tree wrenching time. Especially when the goal is to keep costs down.

 

"While I agree the rules should have been tighter years ago, and that was the time to do it. Now is just upsetting the apple cart." Hey, good point. But still you gotta get rid of them pesky delrin bushings.

 

"Gotta love Joe's remarks on the delrin bushing issue, he has a call into Tim because there must be an error, do Joe and Tim use delrin bushings?" I also have a call into Jim about his home-made now illegal headers. But since we are county and provincial directors, we should be able to get that rule change done immediately cause that must be a mistake. I also have a call in to Harvey Milktoast about his cool chip that he prefers to use with his shaved head knowing that possibly a stock chip may cause future engine problems and no problem, this rule must be a mistake.

 

"Wow, truly diasppointing how these new rules have screwed many of the guys that are actually running the cars now." I'm thinking about a number... No. Wait. Sorry. I'm thinking about applying this fine business model to my company's approach for 2007. Screw the current clients that I have so I can please the many future clients that I know are out there building their attempts to do business with me. Yeah, that's it. Great for me Nationally.

 

Again, I just couldn't live with myself. I felt so dirty. I will just keep telling myself that "It's good for everyone down the road. It's good to grow the class nationally despite regional participation problems. It's good because I don't have delrin bushings. It's good because I can now. possibly podium cause some guys may not want to go backwards, may not want to spend the time under their cars, may not want to spend cubic dollars to just go slower. It's in the rules. It's in the bag"

 

Can't wait for the higher up posts that state "Sorry, my bad, delrin bushings are OK. Just a typo. Our cigar wielding intern made a boo-boo. Won't happen again. And by the way, non-factory LSD's may be illegal in three years." Ooops, just woke up from a dream. I dreamt that someone told me a few months back that there was consideration to only allow stock chips and headers in future new rules. In this dream I saved myself a lot of money and hardship.

 

"I have a dream" Forgot who said that but I think he has a weekend named after him. I want that - maybe April Fools?. But I have a dream. This dream has everyone tearing up the new rules and it all goes back to the way it was. A guy can dream can't he? I hear my wife calling me back to bed. We have to get up early to begin preparations for our Atari and fondue night. P. Dilly, your invite will be in the mail. Eric, bring the rotary phone with you. It can go in my dusty parts bin that has some old junk yard parts that will soon bring me riches.

 

Good night and don't let the Spec bugs bite.

[mfoley]

I'm glad I'll be racing with you this year Ray .

 

Chuck - You may not have been asked before but you can make a difference now. Take a page from Tim's book and get on the phone. You're in a leadership position and I bet you can make a difference.

[Spec-944#70]

How about getting NASA to pay for making now legal cars legal agin???

I'm sure that if the Delrin bushing rule gets changed back that the other rules will be too, because they must be mistakes also!!

[mfoley]

Is it true Eric? NASA is offering discounted entry fees to current NASA license holders for the first 6 months of '07 in order to help them get their cars legal again. Maybe I'll reconsider my decision

[Chuck T.]

I think the "cigar smoking intern" was really funny! thanks Ray.

 

chuck

[genikz]

Chris,

 

Glad to see the rules work for you... Which generation of stock headers do you have? There are 3, Generation one which is 13lbs heavier, Generation two in which EVERY single set I have ever seen is cracked and Generation three, which I think are about to become hard to get and probably more expensive than a decent set of aftermarkets....

 

Jim, I'm not sure what set I have (I'm new to P-cars), but I'm not replacing them any time soon, even if they crack. I welded a subframe on my daily driver some years back and it held up for years before it broke again...sure it's ghetto, but it works and it's cheap!