Gfaules Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 That's not an ignorant question at all in fact a good one. What's dumb is NOT asking questions when you have them. Many are afraid to ask because they fear someone making them feel small with their inept ability to answer their question. And this forum is the perfect place to ask such questions. Have you ever heard of the method doctors use? It's called "Watch one, do one, teach one." It has been used for centuries and it applies to various methods of surgery. The same method could and does apply to racing cars. It's important to realize that when you are attempting to learn not just how to drive but in fact to drive "fast" what better way to do it than by taking things one step at a time. Remember the old "learn to walk before you run" analogy. But it's also not true that oval track schools can't teach you how to drive on a road course and many of them start you out on road courses anyway. Have you ever watched the Nascar drivers at Sears Point or some of the other road courses? Don't kid yourself, they can run on them just fine. Learning to go fast is all about that "feeling" you were born with in the seat of your pants, your ability to learn and trust your own instincts, and your willingness to get lots of seat time. The rest is not about the car or the track but rather it's all about four little patches of rubber and their contact with the track and what you learn to do with them. Sorry, but here is another skeet shooting analogy that I like to refer to. In the beginning, when a new student comes to me for lessons I do not worry about teaching them how to shoot all 25 targets from all the various shooting stations. What I find works best is to take them to one or two of the 8 stations and work on just those. Think of it like working on two turns of a road course. By staying focused on just those two the student becomes much more confident in their ability before moving on to the next ones. I have seen this many times even worth pro teams working with their rookies. Now you and I know not everyone can rent a track to themselves just to work on tow or three corners for the day but that's not the point anyway. The point is, learn to do everything you can, learn to trust yourself and then learn to apply it to each and every new turn you come to at different tracks. Many times I have students who come off the track and it's clear they are more than confused as I look into their eyes and I can see them trying to analyze 12 or 15 corners. They are asking about where to apex turn 4, or where to exit turn 7 or how fast should I enter turn 9 and so on. So the bottom line is take each step of learning to drive fast a step at a time and enjoy what you are learning. You will learn more, your confidence will get a big boost and you will move on to the next track and instructors. There will eventually be a day when your mind will look at a new track and say, "Hey, that turn is exactly like turn 6 at Sears Point and I KNOW exactly what to do with it." That is when it becomes a good time to start checking out schools like Bob Bondurant. There is of course the argument of starting in a driving school will save you money by teaching you great basics and while there is some truth to it I still equate it to attempting to teach a baby to run before he can crawl so after you learn to walk YOU will instinctively know when to go to that next level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 Sudden urge to go skeet shooting.....meh Alright, I hope you all realize that your knowlege, rather your showing thereof, is only going to cause me to assault you all with a multitude of questions. I apologize in advance. A concern I have is that my seats will be a problem. I'm sure a good lot of you know this experience, but if I corner hard in my car at all I damn near fall out of it. No kididng. Reading some other posts (search function's wonderful) I've seen many suggestions toward buying a good seat.....followed by an argument ad nauseum about roll-cages and harnesses. Would it make sense for me to buy a good seat to use just for the track? I find it hard enough to corner in my car as it is when I have to use most of my energy just keeping myself in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Rook, now you have me laughing. (It's all good) Two stories come to mind... Back in 1971 while I was at Stanford, I bought an old Falcon from a little old lady and the car was in mint shape. I wanted to take out the 6 and put in a 289 with a Paxton Supercharger so I decided I would run around campus and blow the old engine up for some cheap fun. Back in those days nobody used seatbelts and this car was no exception. As I tried to do a four wheel drift onto Palm Drive all of a sudden my entire body had slide across the bench seat onto the passenger's side! That left me with one hand stretched out trying to steer the car while in a slide and not able to reach the gas or brake pedal. After further investigation I found out the little old lady had repaired her own driver's seat by sewing on a piece of silk. In retrospect I can tell you silk works better than Marvel Mystery Oil. LOL. The next experience was some years later when I took my 1997 Dodge Viper GTS out onto Sears Point with the stock seat belts. The bottom line is, if you want to go fast and stop fast, you better have your ass strapped in if you want control. So if you don't want a new seat at least get some good seat belts. Like you said, good seat belts leads to a lot more question i.e., how to secure them, etc, but I'm sure there is a right answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 I don’t know who ExRacer is. He sent me a PM because I guess he didn’t want make his comments publicly. I on the other hand have no problem discussing his and my comments on this forum. So here are his comments and my responses. I left his spelling errors in because…well just because. ExRacer wrote… “Xaix, your post is completely innappropriate. Under NO circumstances should you take liberties to publicly trash the amazing NASA volunteer instructors, especially on our own forum. I remind you this is a PRIVATE message as a flame war in public is plain immature.†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Thank you ExRacer. You're a class act and I personally what to tell you how well I thought your message was written. By posting it, which as anyone with any brains knows is both un-ethical and immature, the individual has shown not only his lack of maturity but also that seeking attention by the masses is far more important than his ability to be a gentleman driver. Keep up the outstanding job instructing and rest assured you are doing a great job representing not only NASA but all gentleman racers alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 Hey Gary, You have the innate ability to dance around a direct question and go off down rabbit trails when you are called on your inability to answer a direct question. You then resort to calling someone immature when they don’t agree with you. So I will ask you again…why do ALL of the Corvette, Viper. Cadillac and Audi Speed World Challenge teams use 14†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExRacer Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 (edited) Rook, I withdraw my comments. Please someone find this deserving gentleman a good driving school and let's not hijack his thread. Edited February 10, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted February 10, 2007 Author Share Posted February 10, 2007 Hey Gary, You have the innate ability to dance around a direct question and go off down rabbit trails when you are called on your inability to answer a direct question. You then resort to calling someone immature when they don’t agree with you. So I will ask you again…why do ALL of the Corvette, Viper. Cadillac and Audi Speed World Challenge teams use 14†Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 If I was going to attempt to put down someone regarding their spelling and then turned right around in the next paragraph and misspelled "intellectual" I would have to ask myself if that wasn't a Freudian slip. LOL. And for the record, it was NASA instructors who got me started in HPDE groups, then licensing which ultimately led to all the records and titles I earned thereafter. I have known many others that came up thru the NASA ranks as well including my own son whom won his first national title at the NASA championships in Mid Ohio last year. My hat has always been off to everyone of them for their outstanding dedication and I have not nor will not ever underestimate any of them. The very last thing I would ever do would be attempt to publicly humiliate one of them. Regarding Bob Bondurant, he thinks enough of NASA that he sends his own son to race with us and he is also a fine gentleman racer who shows a great respect and appreciation for NASA and it's method of teaching and racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExRacer Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Gfaules, thanks again for pointing out the instructional level of our NASA instructors and methodology. I was with both Bob and his son in that race at Willow and also won at the Nationals. Congratulations to your son for his performance! We also just instituted data logging and precision analysis of individual performance in our HPDE program this weekend, so NASA again is at the forefront of both technology and professionalism. Our forum is supposed to be a clearinghouse of positive info for any person that honestly desires to get the benefit of experienced and motivated racers and trackers, not the personal area for some infantile attacks like Xaix has demonstrated. So my direct and public response to his inability to separate reality and positive purpose follows: "Get your facts straight Dana, this is a forum for people to gain positive info about our sport, not your personal forum to pump up your manhood! When someone sends a PRIVATE message it's just that . . . not a call to pick another fight. You represent the worst kind of forum participant, a bully who will try to ridicule anyone that disagrees with them." It is unfortunate that Rook can't get the info he desires or that the technical information that the thread subscribees desire isn't being addressed. I suggest that anyone who desires this info go to Stoptech's site and read the white papers there. http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/tech_white_papers.shtml While discussing this at the race this weekend a development engineer for GM, Ford racing and other high-end interests stated that larger rotor diameter and the resultant swept area along with the co-efficient of friction designed into the brake pad, (which you can get huge info from any of the pad engineers) http://www.hawkperformance.com/motorsports/compounds/index.php along with the rotor material and related cooling systems determine ultimate brake performance. It is not within the scope of a forum thread to hash out all the vagaries of brake design, but the info is available with some digging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 ExRacer, First of all let me thank you for an outstanding and well written post and also congratulations on your recent win at the Nationals. As your experience so vividly shows, NASA's program allows both beginners and veteran's alike a lot more than track time. I will be closely monitoring how well the new data logging program works... how cool is that! Rook, I am curious, I see you are from Fort Bragg. Are you Airborne? If so I am sure others here would be interested in hearing what it's like to serve and how that effects it takes on finding time to enjoy your racing. If in fact you are serving in the U.S. armed forces I would like to know and if so, if you find a way out here during a NASA weekend, not only will we give you a place to stay for the weekend, but I will personally see to it that you get a free weekend here with instruction. It's just a way of saying thanks for what you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted February 12, 2007 Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Gfaules, Thanks alot, man! I am actually, and quite proud of it. B 1/508(formerly 3/504) Parachute Infantry Regiment 82nd Airborne. I'm really just starting to get into a legitimate attempt at learning to race, but yes, it's hard. My schedule is rarely set in stone and it's not easy for me to take any time off unless it falls on a holiday. This is why I've been trying to find as much as I can that's in North Carolina, and also why I ask so many questions online. You're in Northern California, right? If I can ever make it out that way I'll surely take you up on that offer. All gas/drinks are on me that weekend, though! ExRacer, Thanks for those websites, lots of great info. I'm gathering from the StopTech white pages that it probably wouldn't be effective as far as cost to gain ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfaules Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Rook, I am sure I am speaking for all of us when I say we are all proud to have you with us and of the job you perform that in fact helps make this country safe enough that we can enjoy all of the freedom we have including racing. WHEN (not if) you get out here, I promise Nor Cal will show you a great time and the drinks will be on NASA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Corkran Posted February 12, 2007 Share Posted February 12, 2007 Alright, well does anyone know of any road-race based schools close to or in NC? I'm not sure what you consider close, but have you looked into the Panoz racing school at Road Atlanta? http://panozracingschool.com/home/home.lasso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rook Posted March 11, 2007 Author Share Posted March 11, 2007 Alright, well does anyone know of any road-race based schools close to or in NC? I'm not sure what you consider close, but have you looked into the Panoz racing school at Road Atlanta? http://panozracingschool.com/home/home.lasso Now that sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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