DriverGT5 Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion until the "deep pockets" comments started flying. Let's make sure we are all on the same page with regard to what that means. Here's a point of reference so you can compare / contrast with your individual programs. $26,000 (Our spec car with all spares that anyone could have purchased last year) $3,000 (Trick Flow top-end engine kit) $1,000 (SN95 Spindles and Cobra R Front Brakes) $800 Front and rear sway bars $30,800 total ($4,800 spent this year). Tony B. I think by the end of the year my cars going to be worth ~$10,000 My budget for the year is about $2,500. See you at Nats! Just out of curiosity, how long do those Hoosier A6's last? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abuffom Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 We're getting 12-15 heat cycles out of the A6s before they fall off. We cut a tire down in qualifying and put a right rear on that had 17 heat cycles and ended up turning our fastest laps of the weekend in the race. The car only weighs about 2560 so it's not that hard on tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David M. Pintaric Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 We're getting 12-15 heat cycles out of the A6s before they fall off. We cut a tire down in qualifying and put a right rear on that had 17 heat cycles and ended up turning our fastest laps of the weekend in the race. The car only weighs about 2560 so it's not that hard on tires. I am jealous...at 3700++ lbs I am lucky to get 3-4 heat cycles without cording a tire ('specially the rear). After the 2nd cycle the tire loses quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z06RACER Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 I'm w/ David. After 3-4 heat cycles my tires are toast. My car is 3250 after the race. 17 heat cycles= driving n the rims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymz Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 The big issue here that hasn't been mentioned by the cobra drivers is the weight. Most of us Vette and Viper guys are at least 800 pounds heavier. ( Some are 1200... ask Pintaric) We have issues too. Brakes, tires, etc. Do the cobra's see brake fade during a race? How many laps until the tires get greasy? I am all for giving aero mods to a Cobra if they weigh in over 3000 lbs. There is away to make the cars faster in the corners and it isn't aero mods. Someone will figure it out sooner or later. The bottom line is that the cobra has won 4-5 straight races in ST2 trim. I believe that the ruleset is working out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucktoo Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 Cobra over 3000 lb are a problem - our cages are only legal to 3000 lb. 1.5" dia .120 wall dom. I know weight includes driver but that is cutting it close. I am working hard to keep mine under 3000 lb with full halo and supercharger. Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriverGT5 Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 We're getting 12-15 heat cycles out of the A6s before they fall off. We cut a tire down in qualifying and put a right rear on that had 17 heat cycles and ended up turning our fastest laps of the weekend in the race. The car only weighs about 2560 so it's not that hard on tires. That's nuts! I would have thought for sure they'd be done after a handful of sessions. I never thought about how much the car's weight affected tire wear I guess. Equally shocking is the concept that a Vette gets 4!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallyman424 Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 whats sad is that I buy tires AFTER the other guys put the 4 on them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriverGT5 Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 whats sad is that I buy tires AFTER the other guys put the 4 on them... What's sad is the last set of Hoosiers I ran on cost me $40 and sat in a shed for 3+ years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 whats sad is that I buy tires AFTER the other guys put the 4 on them... What's sad is the last set of Hoosiers I ran on cost me $40 and sat in a shed for 3+ years. Rob, how much does your car weigh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriverGT5 Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 As of Rockingham the car was around 2538 race weight (probably a few lbs less because there was still a bit of gas in it) and 214whp. I need about 90 more whp to get to my limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 As of Rockingham the car was around 2538 race weight (probably a few lbs less because there was still a bit of gas in it) and 214whp. I need about 90 more whp to get to my limit. Man, that's light. I was guessing 2,750. Once you get that 90 hp, there's no stopping you. You and Tony B will be leading the parade! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriverGT5 Posted April 30, 2007 Share Posted April 30, 2007 As of Rockingham the car was around 2538 race weight (probably a few lbs less because there was still a bit of gas in it) and 214whp. I need about 90 more whp to get to my limit. Man, that's light. I was guessing 2,750. Once you get that 90 hp, there's no stopping you. You and Tony B will be leading the parade! I certainly think the car has the right formula, but I have a lot to learn about chassis tuning and setup. I'm still basically on a stock suspension too. We'll see if I can put it all together by September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlogan Posted April 30, 2007 Author Share Posted April 30, 2007 Well, glad to see folks are still discussing things rationally and in a nice demeanor. Unfortunately I didn't get a full weekend of results like I wanted. I qualified and then spun a rod bearing. I can't comment on ST-2, I have no experience with it. I'll let those guys deal with that. I do think the ffr can be competitive in ST-1 and I think I am getting close, especially after this weekend. I only got a practice and qualifying on our TWS 2.9 mile clockwise course. I would have qualified 3rd for ST-1, I don't remember the exact times, but it was a new course for all of us. I was 0.7 seconds off poll and .1 second off of outside poll (almost identical). I have no doubt that Kevin Mixon(pole) will get much faster since this was his first event out with the Z06 after adding wing/splitter. We'll see how much ground I've covered come the next race in Houston. Kevin's also a much better driver than I am so I figure there's a lot left driver wise to make up that difference. It does give me some hope though. The car is definitely far more safe/predicatble with aero in ST-1 trim....the guys in my region have seen the car starting in street trim all the way to where it is now and I think all can attest to how far it's come. But it wasn't easy for sure and it still has a ways to go. Keep up the good discussion, I'll try to get my car back together to keep up the debate. BTW, all 4 ST-1 cars in our region (me and 3 Z06s) are running used non DOT Hoosiers. Sure keeps the tire bill down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidfarmer Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 I think the "touring" part of ST mandates something be done for non-production chassis. Whether aero is the answer, or a simple 0.??? modification across the board, I don't know. The FFR's in particular are small and nimble, but there are other cars that will be as well. What do those cars weigh anyway??? I assume they are light, and get a "weight" penalty as well. I think ST cars power/weight should be public knowledge...don't know if it is....but if we can see all of the data, I think the group can come up with a concensis. Until I get my car on track, competitively, I have no definite opinion yet. I haven't seen any times by anyone that are particularly remarkable, so the current rules seem to be working so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymz Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 The power/weight IS public knowledge per the ST rulebook. The FRR Spec cars weigh in minimum at 2450 with driver. We need to wait and see for this year and make changes in the off season to keep things fair to everyone. They knew the rules before the first race and so did everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanElam Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 Yeah, once I get my act together I intend to post the sheets for all of the Mid Atlantic competitors. Not meant to have any surprises. I don't think the FFR crowd was lobbying for aero although it doesn't seem to make sense to penalize one group of cars when the rest of the cars are basically unrestricted. Everyone should have always known that certain cars were going to have an advantage on certain tracks: The Vettes will probably dominate at places like Road Atlanta and VIR where there are long straights that the aero and HP really help. A tight track like Summit Shenadoah, Thunderhill or even Sears Point probably wins with a 180HP Super Seven. Personally I see no way that a FFR car be competitive in ST-1: it's just way too much drag. I'm not even sure that in ST-2 the cars can win consistently. Right now our cars aren't turning the fastest laps, but we're still getting some wins. Part of it is because we have more cars, part is some luck with traffic, and part is because we've got Tony off to an early string of wins. FFR cars ought to do reasonably well on a lot of tracks, but probably shouldn't win on any. I can tell you at VIR I raced against an ST-2 Vette who was a student I had just mentored through his comp license and he didn't have any problem pushing the throttle and doing just fine against myself and others. Take a look at Paul Kaiser's Caddilac and you have to wonder about the 4-door rule and the *huge* advantage you get there. I had trouble beating him in my SU car. For the life of me I can't see why that rule is there since it has nothing to do with performance whatsoever. We'll have to see how it plays out. It may need to be that the FFR guys just end up with an overlay class if we can't be competitive. There is plenty of time to see what works. We're only into the season for a handful of races and many of us are in the early stages of sorting our cars to the new configurations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David M. Pintaric Posted May 1, 2007 Share Posted May 1, 2007 I keep saying I don't have a dog in this fight, but I guess I do... I have posted my Sunday ST2 race with Tony Buffomente (sp). You can all watch the video, it seems as though we were pretty equal. His car was stronger than mine in some places, mine in others. The Viper is not known to be an aerodynamically "good" car, and I wasn't able to pull on him at the end of the long Mid Ohio straight. The FFR's strong point, IMO, is going to be nimbleness and handling. The car is small enough to go places an elephant like my Viper cannot go. I wonder how much more adjustments are available to an FFR compared to other cars? Another strong point is longevity within a race. With the lght weight (compared to my 3700+ lbs) the optimum performance will saty with the car longer into the race compared to a heavier car. That being said, I am sure a Viper can be made to go faster without significantly changing the HP/weight ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanElam Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 David, not remotely trying to pick a fight, but as a former Viper driver turned FFR, I can assure you that the Viper is much more aerodynamic. As for handling, the jury is still out. With the independent rear of the Viper and very wide stance, I know that I could do effortless things with the Viper that made me work much harder in the FFR. It's even easier in a Z06. They are just different. We'll have a better idea later in the season as more guys get their cars sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David M. Pintaric Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Dan, I understand completely what you are saying and how you are saying it. I feel the same way. Believe me, I have been in the middle of a nasty "car vs car" debate and vow to not get into another one. I don't know what, if anything, needs to be done. But I am willing to participate in the process. I am not sure how my driving talents stack up against Mr. Buffomante, so that is a part of the equation, albeit the hardest one to measure. I think the FFR cars are really neat, so I am not lobbying against them (our cars are distant cousins...right?), plus everyone here should now my fondness of Corvettes. If something needs to be done, I'll join the voices asking for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriverGT5 Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 I think we're all going to see the rules tweaked after this season. I just hope my monstrosity goes under the radar.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlogan Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 I think we're all going to see the rules tweaked after this season. I just hope my monstrosity goes under the radar.... Hmm, I think we need a motor swap penalty...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriverGT5 Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 I think we're all going to see the rules tweaked after this season. I just hope my monstrosity goes under the radar.... Hmm, I think we need a motor swap penalty...... Indeed we should. Didn't those cars come with 289's originally? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucktoo Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 The first I think were 260s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriverGT5 Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 The first I think were 260s. Even better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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