Anderson Motorworks #69 Available for Buttonwillow

[TheWho]

We're looking for an experienced driver (POC/PCA/NASA/TCRA licensed) that wants to beat Tim Comeau and/or/both his jailbait car at Buttonwillow next weekend. I'm willing to give up my ride to someone that has run at BW and WANTS to beat Tim.

 

This car will beat the Jailbait car with the right driver ! Shaved head and new dyno'd custom software are generating an incredible amount of HP (16X) at the wheels, plus that short fifth, positraction, and new stereo are to die for. Airconditioning also available!

 

If you want to check out the totally legal #69 it will be at the stadium this weekend for the DE event! .

 

Interested drivers contact J. Anderson/ N. Wirght/ or me.

[PeanutinCA]

Is it Insured, with Survival? I can't take that ride!

 

160+ at the wheels, is that what your saying. Come on now, what do we gotta do to get those kinda numbers? Give away any trade secrets?

 

You drive it David, your fast enough? Surely fast enough with those numbers?

 

P.Dilly.

Edited May 26, 2004 by Guest

[PeanutinCA]

p.s. your yanking our chain on the hp to the wheels numbers right? I mean, 25hp above the best, where did you squeeze the charger?

[Spec-944#70]

Post the dyno sheet as I'm sure everyone will want to see it. No giving away secrets but now we're all interetsed. A Milidge ITS engine makes 185HP but I know they aren't Spec legal. JA I'll be there in my own car and would love to take your car for a spin if it's avail!! I've only driven the track once so I'm not your man but I'd still love to beat Timmmeee!!!

[Paul Bloomberg]

Will the ride be available for the POC PIR event???? I will be looking for a seat for that event if it happens.

Paul

[944-Spec#94]

160 at wheels and spec leagal. Yeah right...

 

 

If it is spec legal and 160 at the wheels then it is time for a little rules adjustment.

 

When most cars are 130 to 135 we might be able to tolerate 140-142 at the wheels if legal. Sure it will stick out like sore thumb (already has), but with 160+ we need to make some adjustments because it is not in the spirit of our rules even if it is "legal".

 

 

Then again with all that A/C & stereo talk I'd guess that the car really is not at 160+. He just throwing a rat into nest to see what happens.

 

 

Ok so 160+ HA HA PROVE IT

[944-Spec#94]

Paul,

Don't worry you, me, Tyler, Chas, or Glenn can all take Tim at PIR in spec cars.

[Spec-944#70]

Maybe he did acheive greater HP while staying within the rules. If JME can make a 185 HP ITS legal engine (which is a stock motor also just balanced, polished and ported but still uses stock parts) and so long as John didn't knife edge the crank or lighten the assemblies then maybe he found something he can still do. The problem with the "Spirit" of the rules it says use stock parts and no lightening of the crank except where it's needed to keep the assy. Maybe he had everything micro polished and reduced friction in the motor. It's still stock and not modified. The "Spirit" is about winning while staying legal. Cam is easy to check and so is compression so if he did do this to the car protest it. But also be ready if he's 100% legal. If he's putting out 160 at the wheels he may have a new customer too!! (Provided it's legal) I hope he is!!!!

[944-Spec#94]

Some numbers...

 

Lets say these cars have a 15% drivetrain loss.

 

So a Stock 143-147 hp car would turn 121 to 125 hp at the wheels. Not uncomon for 100% stock cars.

 

Now we can do a little fiddling here and there. Not much, but many of our cars are at 130 to 135 at the wheels.

 

So... that means these cars are at 153 to 160 at the flywheel.

 

That seems very reasonalbe to me.

 

So a few cars are apparently at 140 to 143 whp. That converts to 165 to 168 hp at the flyhwheel. Higher and noticable at the track, but maybe not out of the possiblity of leagl per our rules.

 

Now JME ITS engines are advertised at 183 bhp. That is at the flywheel so at the wheels would be 155.5 whp

 

It is widely touted that JME ITS engines are as powerfull as any ITS 944 8v motor. ITS does not allow a bump in compression, but does allow oversize pistons. So if the #69 is really pumping out 160+ at the flywheel I'd be VERY surprised since that is 190+ at the flywheel.

 

If it is pumping out 160+ and is LEGAL then I'd guess he is exploiting a loop hole in the rules. Good Job John in finding such loophole as I could not expect the rules to be 100% perfect and you did your job as an engine builder.

 

However it would show to ME anyway that we have an issue in the rules we need to address. Clearly it is not condusive to a good series to have some cars 30 hp up on the field. One can learn to drive around being down 5-10 hp and being 50lbs overweight, but at 30+ hp it is really too much.

 

So while I can't be sure the car is pumping an honest 160 whp (don't think it is). I think it would be a bad move for the series to allow a car with 30 hp gain on the field even if it is legal.

 

Before we get too much into a fit about this lets see what the car really does first. I think Marguglio had a dyno chart with 148 whp or something that was bogus (improper dyno set-up or something) so this could be the same.

[Spec-944#70]

I agree Joe but if he is running 160 whp and is legal why do we penalize him for being smart? I don't think that's in the "Spirit" It's all part of racing and I like the idea of someone finding a trick. If it's legal then great!! If not it's up to us to figure out what he did that's illegal. That's all I'm saying. Shoot I have a stock 84 motor with only a K&N filter. No chip and no headers so I'm way down. But if I'm looking for a new motor in the next year and John is legal I may need to talk to him. That and track time. I'm down to 2:07.1 at CSW and 1:39 at WS so with more seat time and a few more horses Timmmeee will need to watch my bumper as I'll be infront. Just kidding Tim your still the man till you get dethroned by one of us newbies coming up in the rear.

[PeanutinCA]

Ladies. I'm sure they are just trying to stir things up! And it's worked byt the look of it. There's a couple "slightly" ruffled blouses around.

 

It would be hard to imaginethat one shop has been able to out-do all the other shops, vendors, manufacturers, the FACTORY. Did Porsche ever squeeze 160+ to the wheels out of a 944? Hell, to add 20-30 wheel hp out of a 993 you have to add a 3.8 liter kit so, sounds un-realistic. Maybe David made a typo? Then we would all look silly for carrying on. Say, why doesn't someone call the shop and ask?

 

And lets face it, if it is true, it might be so on the edge, it has to last the distance?

 

P.Dilly.

[TheWho]

John doesn't tell me squat , except don't use the break and keep Timmy behind you. So far I've failed at both . The numbers sound alittle absurd, but I got to believe the owner/builder. He's really into the fine tuning at this stage of the game. I know the chip tuning was impressive.

 

Since he's in the midst of building another I doubt he'll share numbers or pictures with the group, plus he spends most of his time on the defense with this crowd.

[PeanutinCA]

don't use the brake and keep Timmy behind you. So far I've failed at both .

 

Ditto and Ditto.

[nkwright]

Now Mr. Ray, what has John told you about making outlandish claims on his behalf. You've been a bad boy again!!! Now stop it before he removes the automatic speed deployed battery lowering elevator from the car. You know how the relocation of the battery helped your lap times at WSIR. That will be the first thing to go!

And, if you keep it up, the super secret flux capacitor that is concealed in the spare tire compartment will be disabled as well! If that doesn't get you back in line, you will also lose the cockpit adjustable sway bars, shocks, and the super secret exhaust flapper valve which simulates 15psi of boost when you are above 5500 RPM!

 

John loves this crowd. Now stop getting everyone riled up and go out and drive!!!

[Spec-944#70]

Don't forget about the NOS bottle disguised as an exstinguisher!! I was thinking more along the lines of teflon coating the bearings for friction reduction. BTW how much is nitromethane per gal??

See ya'll at BW!!!!

[TheWho]

Mr. Wright, your right (as always)! I should never quote those specs after a coupe of hits of that Canadian medical maryjane and/or two Stoli martinis.

 

Automatically lowering the battery at max g's in turns 2/8/9 do add significant counter balancing to the front control arms and sway bars. I never thought of it that way.

 

Mr. Dilly: we have a serious crowd here! I also have pictures of Timmy from the Navy, but I don't kiss and tell.

[PeanutinCA]

Mr. Dilly: we have a serious crowd here! I also have pictures of Timmy from the Navy, but I don't kiss and tell.

 

I wondered where the nickname "Cuddle Bear" for a big guy like yourself came from? Now I know!

[PeanutinCA]

p.s. so do I read correctly? You guys wont be bringing the rocket out to BW in 2 weekends? Damn, so I only get to beat Timmeeeee?

[Tim Comeau]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......................................

Since all the engine components must be stock and unmodified, where is the 160 rwhp coming from?

First, Is the dyno accurate?

 

The 1988 engine is supposed to put out 158 flywheel hp at 10.2:1 compression ratio, with a stock camshaft.

 

If we up that compression ratio to the max allowed, 11:1, add aftermarket headers, and do some chip reprogramming, we could get some bigger hp numbers. The hp numbers claimed may be very peaky.

 

You can't modify anything in the fuel delivery system of our cars. You can modify the air flow meter according to Dan Webb. You can't modify the camshaft or any of the engine internals.

Therefore, the claimed hp improvements have to be coming from the compression ratio change, the headers, and the chip. Possibly a few from not running the counter balance shafts?

 

It would be a terrible thing if all of our drivers felt the need to rebuild their engines to achieve equality in hp with the claimed figure above, right?

So, because THIS SERIES WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE AN ENGINE BUILDERS COMPETITION, but rather a driving contest, let's remove a few more variables that make it possible to get bigger hp numbers than most of us already have.

 

1. Rewrite the "Exhaust is free from the head back" rule. The new rule would mandate stock factory headers of the cast iron early type, or the later "tubular type. After the stock headers, the exhaust is free. This would incur very little cost to the drivers. Aftermarket headers could be sold off and the money used to buy stock headers from dismantlers like AUTOBAHN or 20th St. Auto.

2. Limit the maximum compression ratio to the highest stock level produced by the factory, which was 10.2:1 in the 1988 944 and 924S engines, due mostly, if not all, to the different shaped pistons. Heads could be measured, while installed, from top to bottom to see if any shaving has been done. Engine blocks could also be measured for shaving. Costs? Stock used heads are cheap! How many of us have over 10.2:1 right now? Keep your 1988 pistons if you want, but then, no shaving of the head. OR, use the more common early pistons and shave the head (if you want) to get to the max 10.2:1 comp. ratio. In case you're wondering, I run 89 pump gas!

 

***An added benefit of limiting the max comp. ratio to 10.2:1 would be that our rules would fall right in line with those of the "other PHX 944 group " thus facilitating more crossover between events! Bigger starting grids!

 

 

Without the higher 11:1 compression ratio and the headers, the chip would have a much lesser effect.

What do you drivers think? How many of us would have to change something? How quick could we get the rules changed?

 

Let's continue all efforts to keep the costs of our class DOWN, and the PLAYING FIELD LEVEL. That is the intent of the rules and the reason I have championed this class above all others. Shops that prepare and maintain 944-spec cars are made to look good not by continually having their cars in the winners circle, but by continually presenting well-built, legal, reliable 944's. Shops don't win our spec races, drivers do!

Still at your service,

TC

Edited May 27, 2004 by Guest

[PeanutinCA]

What if I warp my stock 88 head? I have to buy a new one? I can't shave it at least once? I mean, I'll deal with it if it ever happens, but a small amount of room would be nice?

 

I'll deal with it for the "spirit" of the class because that should be the ultimate objective, "driver talent". Hell, I can't even find a local shop to work on these cars unless I fork out big dollars hourly. Makes it tough! Then if I have to compete with shops who can, I'm in bigger trouble. You know what, I have the answer, I'm going to electric shock the brake pedal so I am reluctant to use it!!

 

P.Dilly.

[Tim Comeau]

Sell the 88 pistons, get early ones, then shave the head...............................or, if we don't change the rules, you could race against a car with 160 hp at the rear wheels. Your choice.

[PeanutinCA]

Sell the 88 pistons, get early ones, then shave the head...............................or, if we don't change the rules, you could race against a car with 160 hp at the rear wheels. Your choice.

 

Aren't we jumping the gun a little? Nobody's proven 160+ hp to the wheels yet. And, if it true, not proven legally. Lets get these guys out for a test run before we start changing rules? Or, someone from NASA having a confidential chat regarding what mods constitute those gains? Make it impartial?

 

Anyway, sell my 88 pistons and lose that phsycological advantage over others? Why else did I buy an 88? When small hp gains don't "apparently" matter?

 

P.Dilly.

[944-Spec#94]

Upon recieving further information I really feel the 160 whp number is bogus. Never believe it anyway. So lets stick to our 130-135 numbers with a couple "outliers" at 140. (Still not sure how 140 legal, but that is not important here)

 

Tim,

I really like the intent of your adjustments. Honestly the 11:1 this really a little off anyway. Sure if you wanted to equalize the 9.6:1 and 10.2:1 cars have max of 10.2 not 11:1. The "other Az group" does this. Infact they define that any car with 10.2 :1 pistons defined by part numbers and do not allow shave beyond that.

 

P Dilly.

I know the idea was to allow some removal for a warped head and subsequent compression bump. Well as I figure it how much of a head warp do we really need to worry about. If you have to shave off so much that you go to 11:1 even from 10.2:1 to flaten a warped head my guess is that the head is toast anyway.

 

Let me give you an example of my motor.

 

As most of you know I was running a complete unopened 45k 87 924S motor in my spec car. Ran it for two years or so. Then boom. Rod bearing failed and took out the complete bottom end. Cause? Maybe cracked oil pick-up tube due to mis timmed balance shafts or just plain worn bearings.

 

Anyway I turned to my original 84 944 motor. It had coolant mixing and needed a rebuild. I pulled it apart and noticed a bad head gasket and cooler seals. I completely redid the bottom end. My 87 motor's bottom end was gone, but head was still good. I had banged a couple valves, but no other damage. I did have severe corrosion and had to have some holes in the head welded-up and then of course the the headed needed to be flatened. They took off only enough material to ensure flatness after welding the holes. My guess was only .001 or .002 thousands of an inch. So not much. What is my compression? Not sure exactly, but may be 9.7:1 vs 9.6:1. Anyway my point is that heads can survive rod bearing blow-ups and only minor shaving should be required to maintian compression. On a 88 motor maybe well allow what a bump to 10.4:1 to allow for MINOR shave? For comparison what does SCCA IT allow. I think it is .2 bump to allow for head repair. That would allow P Dilly to repair a slightly damaged head, but not go out push for big hp.

 

Sure still not 100% in line with the other Phx folks however.

 

I guess I do like Tim's effort to keep these cars even and cost down. As soon as guys on the outside see the need to have "built motors" or trick suspensions it WILL limit those that want to get in to the series. There are already plenty of places one can race a Porsche and spend big bucks on trick parts from any number of capable shops.

 

That is NOT the mission of 944-spec or "the other Az 944 series" either.

 

Lets keep to the intent. Relatively low cost, equal cars. Driver vs Driver not Dollar vs Dollar or Shop vs Shop.

 

Alot of you So Cal folks got interest in 944-spec for a couple reasons.

 

1) POC racing in class XXX was costing too much and you felt you could never keep up with the "big boys"

 

2) You never thought you could ever "Race a Porsche" because you did not have $$$$$$$$ laying around or a sweathart deal with a shop.

 

3) Most other Porsche racing was more about who had the biggest budget or the best shop not who was the best driver

 

4) Varried budget and car prep leading lack close competition in other forms racing.

 

What I really all comes down to was the lure of CLOSE racing on SMALL budget.

 

Lets keep that in mind and realize that the rules as written are a best attempt by all the founders of 944 racing to stay with this intent. Over the first year many rules were changed and adjusted in the interset of keeping the cars close and budgets low. That is why we spec the tires, spec the wheels, spec the shocks, don't allow rear coilovers, even spec the max rear torsion bar. All of these things were intended to keep the prep level costs down and try to keep the performance close.

 

I will tell you why we don't allow rear coilovers = To keep guys from spending mega bucks on facny suspensions that will make the car go faster, but also can double the cost of the cars.

 

I will tell you why we spec the shocks = To keep guys from buying and using $5000 shocks and through that .5 sec advantage and 2 sec placebo effect increase they cost of competitiveness by $5000.

 

I will tell you why we limit the rear to 30 mm torsion bars = To keep guys from figureing out how to stuff some 40 mm torsion bar in there and therefore forcing eveyone else to have custom one off t-bars made.

 

I will tell you why we spec the tires and wheels = To keep guys from buying $1000 each wheels and hoosiers every race. You know some guys will and even if they are no faster the rumor mill and preception will force eveyone else in to those $1000 wheels and hoosiers just to feel like they have a fighting chance.

 

So sure we could allow thing like the above and other engine parts and not even limit potential loop holes that existing the rules. In fact all of the above rules (except for rear coilovers) was legal in the first version of the rules. So they were in fact changed to fix some potential ares that surely would make the cars faster, but would also increase the costs.

 

Racing is already expensive enough and having rules that increase the cost of a basic car build by $5000 or even $1000 will have sereve impact on our class. When we started car build was about at $6000 for complete cars. Now they are pushing $10k with a few folks well over that since shops are doing the labor. Believe me $15k for typical at home build is WAY too much for this class to be sucessfull.

 

Frankly there may be some rule loop holes that need to be closed. In fact they may cost MORE for some folks with cars already prepared since they may need to undo certain things. Sure that sucks, but if we can lower they entry and initial build I will bring in more folks and more cars means more cars race with on track and more fun.

 

Right now I am NOT advocating any changes, but realize that if some person or shop finds loop hole and exploits it to the point that it forces all other cars to spend big bucks to keep up. Well we may need a rules adjustment. That rule adjustment will impact that car and may even impact other folks whose cars are not "out of the normal performance enevelop". Well all I can say is tough. One guy ruined it for the rest of us.

[Spec-944#70]

You are all still assuming JA is cheating! He says his car is 100% legal. If he is legal what's the big deal? Someone will still need to drive the car in front of Timmee or Joe P. Before you go willy nilly changing all of the rules to exclude 1 car lets first see what it's capable of!!! You crying foul and haven't even raced against him yet!! If the "intent" of the "Spirit" of the rules is to keep a level playing feild and costs down then make sure he's cheating first!! He may have just put together a well sorted out motor. If he did that and stayed within the rules then he should be applauded not spanked!! The proof will be in the pudding!! If they're not showing up at BW next weekend then don't even sweat it.

[944-Spec#94]

You are all still assuming JA is cheating! He says his car is 100% legal.

 

Never said that. Never intended to make that impression. I just don't believe the 160 whp number and don't think anyone else should either.

 

Just don't go think he is cheating either. No evidence in any direction.

 

 

My entire point is that while its great to exploit a loop hole and make a car 20% faster that the rest it does nothing to help a series touted for close racing at a low cost. This IS A SPEC series. That mean very restricitve rules to keep cars close and in my mind continual adjustments to mantain costs and equity in performance. Driver's skill needs to take the for front not the ability to tune and set up a car. That is purpose behind the series. It not now and should never be place for tuners to play looking for the next performance enchancement. There are plenty of other classes for that.

 

I guess that is my point. As much as I don't like it this more like NASCAR with severe technology limitations competition adjustment vs F1 where technology is at least as important (some say more) than driver skill.

 

Guys this is what a SPEC series all about. Spec series are NOT for everyone.