HPDE, lots of questions!

[gokimigo]

I'm soon to join the HPDE & this will be my FiRST ONE. It obviously sounds fun! But I have some questions before flying onto the track..

 

-I've raced through a couple of well-known Karting schools. Could I get placed in a higher HPDE class?

-I know how to do heel-toe, skip shifting, & bit of trail braking (though it's different in a front wheel drive car). Could I, here too, get placed in a higher HPDE class?

-Will my street tires last a whole weekend of HPDE? Or will I have to change them after the events?

-How about my brake pads & engine?

-What is the usual cost for a Norcal HPDE event? I heard it's $200..

-How & when do I get my car serviced/inspected? (how will the service ppl know my car is going to run in HPDE).

-Can I get tires installed onto my rims after a day of driving at the race track? & if so, what's the cost?

 

That's all of the questions for now, but I'm sure I'll be asking a lot more down the road..

[FBody383]

I'm soon to join the HPDE & this will be my FiRST ONE.

-I've raced through a couple of well-known Karting schools. Could I get placed in a higher HPDE class?

-I know how to do heel-toe, skip shifting, & bit of trail braking (though it's different in a front wheel drive car). Could I, here too, get placed in a higher HPDE class?

 

I hope not.... now take a deep breath.

 

My experience with NASA is that they do a great job of letting people "drive" their way into the appropriate group; you will end up in the right run group.

 

It may go a little slower than you want, but you'll have fun and learn something about you, your car and the track in the process.

[cosm3os]

I'm soon to join the HPDE & this will be my FiRST ONE. It obviously sounds fun! But I have some questions before flying onto the track..

 

-I've raced through a couple of well-known Karting schools. Could I get placed in a higher HPDE class?

-I know how to do heel-toe, skip shifting, & bit of trail braking (though it's different in a front wheel drive car). Could I, here too, get placed in a higher HPDE class?

-Will my street tires last a whole weekend of HPDE? Or will I have to change them after the events?

-How about my brake pads & engine?

-What is the usual cost for a Norcal HPDE event? I heard it's $200..

-How & when do I get my car serviced/inspected? (how will the service ppl know my car is going to run in HPDE).

-Can I get tires installed onto my rims after a day of driving at the race track? & if so, what's the cost?

 

That's all of the questions for now, but I'm sure I'll be asking a lot more down the road..

 

Sign up for HPDE 1. You belong there. Check your ego at the door.

Your street tires will last you the weekend. Your brake pads should be new before starting the weekend and you will probably go through a set by the end of the weekend (you'll have enough to get home, but not another track day) depending on your car and the type of pads.

You're engine will be fine, just make sure the fluids are topped off.

Don't know how much events are, but I'd be surprised if it's only $200. Plus add in gas, hotel, meals, souvenirs.

Your region should have a list of designated tech shops on their website. Tell them you are there for an inspection. Do it within a couple of weeks before the event.

As for your last question, don't come to the track with tires that are ready to be replaced. If they are bald or cording, get them replaced before tech.

[gokimigo]

Thanks for the help. It was more of a "just wondering if it's possible" questions for the first 2 that I asked. So I guess karting & street driving won't translate...

 

Anyways, the last question.. I would be headed to the track with new tires to drive on. But I will, too, bring extra tires.. just wanted to know if, at the race track, they could install those extra tires on my rims that I just drove with for the entire weekend. All tires are new. In other words, drive the track with new tires, go home with new tires?? Will they charge me to take off the old tires & replace them with MY new ones?? Or will they even do it at the race track?

[cosm3os]

Unless there's some reason why you want different tires on the car when you leave, don't sweat it. They aren't gonna wear out noticeably. Some regions have tire guys present who can do this for you. Don't know the price.

[gokimigo]

Oh cool.

How long would racing brake pads last? A couple track days? Not high performance but Racing..

 

Thanks once again.

[Renntag]

Welcome to NASA.

 

All the advice above is spot on. I would like to say that because you have all of these great questions, shows that you would be making a good choice to start off in HPDE1. Whether you are the fastest driver in the group or not....there is still much to be learned in the process.

 

As to the tires.....NO way in hell are you going to wear out a set of street tires in 6-8 sessions on track. If you have a 3500# + car....with soft stickies....perhaps 2-3 weekends and the tires will be getting worn. Thats it.

 

You might even drive these street tires ALL SEASON !.

 

As for the break pads...if you use a good street/track pad they may last all season as well. Again, unless your car is heavy and you are hard on pads. Some drivers are.

 

Bottom line, have fun and sign up for as many events as you can.

 

Happy holidays.

[granracing]

So I guess karting & street driving won't translate.

 

It'll help but driving a car on the track is different. Don't be so anxious to get into higher run groups - take your time and learn as much as you can. You may be quicker out there than most, but by the sounds of it you could quickly get over your head.

[beerkat]

What kind of car are we talking about here.

[gokimigo]

I'm not really anxious to get into higher groups or to even be the fastest out there (although I heard there is no timing & scoring). I was just curious if they bump you up a group if you had a bit more experience on track (karts of all things). But I will learn as much as I can.

 

The car is a Celica '00.

 

..I'm guessing Lewis Hamilton wouldn't get into a higher group after his karting?..

[Mike Panichello]

Here's a writeup after my first HPDE a year ago with some tips. Hopefully, they'll be helpful:http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=11796&highlight=

 

I've been in six or so HPDE's since then, and the only other thing I can tell you is this: your speed is not what will get you moved up in HPDE's, so don't worry about that at all for now. Progression is primarily based on whether you're a safe driver to have in the next group. If you are fast, but sloppy or reckless, you'll stay where you are. The key to being a good driver is smooth car control and courtesy/safety. That rule goes for everyone from DE1 drivers through to the race groups.

 

You'll have a BLAST! Make sure to let us all know how it goes!

 

-Mike

[MOTORGOSPEL Ministries]

I'm not really anxious to get into higher groups or to even be the fastest out there (although I heard there is no timing & scoring). I was just curious if they bump you up a group if you had a bit more experience on track (karts of all things). But I will learn as much as I can.

 

The car is a Celica '00.

 

..I'm guessing Lewis Hamilton wouldn't get into a higher group after his karting?..

 

Hello and welcome to NASA!

 

Speaking purely academically, one can start in HPDE 3 based on prior experience. If you're just asking the question from a standpoint of general interest, then the answer is yes an experienced roadracer with credentials would not necessarily start in HPDE 1 just because he or she is new to NASA.

 

With regard to whether it's a good idea to start in HPDE 1, it's absolutely a good idea to start in HPDE 1 in addition to being a requirement if you are not an experienced racer with credentials.

 

The question is not whether you can drive fast. The question is whether you can reflexively make life or death decisions in 250 mS when you are entering a blind turn at 130 being overtaken by a faster car doing 160 while a corner worker is holding out a flag with red and yellow stripes on it at a track where you have less than 100 laps worth of repetitive body learning.

 

For the NASA officials to feel confident about the answer to that question takes time and relationship and water under the bridge.

 

We look forward to building that kind of relationship with you in 2008.

 

Please don't hesitate to continue posting or email me if you have any questions about anything.

 

Again, welcome to NASA!

 

Merry Christmas,

[gokimigo]

Thanks for answering my questions!

 

Btw, my car won't be going anywhere over 130, so whoever gets to instruct me, have no fear

[shotgunslade]

Seems like only yesterday that I was in your shoes. Going out to Pocono without a clue. A few suggestions, that have been made in countless threads in the past, but not yet in this one.

 

1. Get new brake fluid before you go, preferably a performance type. ATE Super Blue is more than adequate for what you will be doing.

 

2. If your brake pads aren't new, get new ones, once again preferably a performance type. I really like Axxis Ultima, but there are many others. Hawks are good. The last set of Axxis' I had lasted 12 track days, and my car isn't light.

 

3. Put Water Wetter in your radiator fluid. Your car may have overheating problems, a lot do, and this can help avoid it.

 

4. Bring a portable electric air pump. Many tracks don't have air pumps, and even if they do, it's much easier to plug it into the cigarette lighter and get exactly the pressure you want. Which means you need a good quality tire gauge.

 

5. If you don't know what pressure to put in your tires, you could start out with street pressure and work up from there, which means you'll need a white shoe polish applicator. Mark each tire with a stripe going from the tread to well onto the sidewall. Look at the marks after each session. If the mark is worn off down onto the sidewall, you need more air, so add 2 or 3 lbs, and refresh to polish line and review again the next time around.

 

6. Street tires won't wear out in one session, but certain tires will limit your fun. If you have all weather tires, you might want to think about investing in some maximum or extreme performance summer tires. These will grip well enough to give you some good lateral acceleration thrills and will be progressive enough in release to help you avoid off track excursions.

 

7. Make sure your car is in top shape. Nothing is worse than having some hose or belt that's nearing the end of its life let go under under the extra stress of a track day. You don't want to start answering questions like "How do I get back home." "How does the car get back home?"

 

8. Bring some common tools. A few wrenches, screwdrivers, etc. I wind up bleeding my brakes at least once a track day, jsut because I like the crispness of a freshly bleeded brake system, so I need the right size wrenches.

 

So, I'm not a racemeister by any stretch, but I've got 20 track days under my belt now and a 3 day racing school, and I'm having a ball. Wish I had started doing this 20 years ago. Be calm, be patient; there's no need to rush in over your head. If you have the skill, you can drive almost as fast in an HPDE 1 session as you can in an HPDE 3 session (you just have to pass a few more people), and the instruction in the lower groups is worth its weight in gold.

 

With luck, you have many years of fun ahead of you. Enjoy

[cmchopeful]

My wife drives an '00 Celica GT-S and I drive an '00 Z28. From our experience street tires (Goodyear GS-D3 F1's) and a good set of track brake pads (Carbotech) should last you 4 weekends before replacement.

 

I would highly recommend ATE or equivalent brake fluid and braided brake lines (StopTech is what we use). Cross-drilled or slotted rotors are not necessary as blanks work well.

 

One thing with the Toyota though is the transmission is prone to overheating so a transmission cooler would highly recommended.

 

I did karting and autocross before starting in HPDE and found that starting in HPDE 1 was the way to go. I benefited immensely from the great instruction received from all of my instructors. I got signed off to group 2 the second weekend and group 3 after 5 weekends and felt very comfortable when I moved into me new groups (read, I was ready to move up).

 

Welcome.

 

Mitch

HPDE 3

2000 Z28

[gokimigo]

Thanks guys!

Merry Christmas to all!

[markseven]

Welcome!

 

My $.02:

 

I signed up for HPDE 1 until the HPDE 1 & 2 director got tired of seeing me My perspective was that I was paying for instruction, not track time. The instructors freely share their experience and insights… why not learn as much as you can from them?

 

My HPDE car is my daily driver, as well (’87 325is, 2,700lbs). A set of Kumho Ecsta SPT's ($60 each) lasted four HPDE weekends, and about 7K on the street (3 degrees of camber in the front). I buy the most inexpensive summer tire I can find, rotate front-to-back on Saturday evening, take advantage of the free lifetime balancing at Discount Tire after each HPDE weekend, and swapped them side-to-side to extend their life ($40 for dismounting , remounting and rebalancing).

 

Watch your fuel gauge – you do not want to run out of gas on the track.

 

Do not miss or come late to download sessions.

 

Hydrate with water and liquids with electrolytes. Eat salty things if its summer time and you are sweating and rehydrating a lot.

 

One of the most important things one of my instructors told me was, “you are here for one thing, and one thing only – to drive… clear your mind of everything else and focus on the task at hand.â€

[markseven]

The question is not whether you can drive fast. The question is whether you can reflexively make life or death decisions in 250 mS when you are entering a blind turn at 130 being overtaken by a faster car doing 160 while a corner worker is holding out a flag with red and yellow stripes on it at a track where you have less than 100 laps worth of repetitive body learning.

 

For the NASA officials to feel confident about the answer to that question takes time and relationship and water under the bridge.

 

Very well stated

[MOTORGOSPEL Ministries]

Thank you Mark!

 

By the way Gokimigo, you can start that repetitive body learning today if you haven't already by finding an in-car video of the next track where you will be driving (in the configuration in which you will be driving it) and watching it a couple hundred times before you actually strap in and do your first lap.

 

You'll have plenty of input competing for your attention at your first handful of HPDE's without also having to remember whether the next blind turn is a left or right hander.

 

 

Best wishes,

[granracing]

My perspective was that I was paying for instruction, not track time. The instructors freely share their experience and insights… why not learn as much as you can from them?

 

YES!!! Keep using the instructors and other drivers that are there. I often get frustrated with some of the higher level drivers who want to become faster but don't take advantage of instructors. There's never a point in one's racing career when they can't use coaching, yet way too many people feel they're above that or don't need it. Most instructors are there because they enjoy helping you become a better driver, not for any other perks they might receive. I also recommend sitting in the passenger seat of instructors' cars to learn what different techniques they use.

[gokimigo]

I am pretty familiar with the Infineon & Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca tracks. I have been there in person & driven them many times on video games (GT3, GT4, PRD1-3, GTR2, F1 simulators mods, etc), seen Nascar, SCCA, & Champ Car races there. Watched the races on TV too.

 

I'm not familiar with Thunderhill though..

[caelric]

Welcome!

 

My $.02:

 

I signed up for HPDE 1 until the HPDE 1 & 2 director got tired of seeing me My perspective was that I was paying for instruction, not track time. The instructors freely share their experience and insights… why not learn as much as you can from them?

 

Most instructors are willing to ride with you no matter what HPDE group you are in. Heck, I've even had instructors ride with me on the open track days on the Friday prior to most weekend events.

 

 

Watch your fuel gauge – you do not want to run out of gas on the track.

 

I'm pretty sure, at least for NASA Rocky Mountain, that if you run out of gas on the track, you are done for that day, and possibly for the weekend. Also, you don't want to run a streetcar at or below a auarter tank, as there is a good chance that the fuel pickup will be sucking dry air when the g forces get a bit high, like in the corners.

 

Do not miss or come late to download sessions.

 

Another good way to miss the next session. They hand out stickers at each download, and if you don't have the most recent sticker, the track workers won't let you out on the track for that session

 

Hydrate with water and liquids with electrolytes. Eat salty things if its summer time and you are sweating and rehydrating a lot.

 

Use sunscreen! Few things hurt more than a helmet on a nice sunburnt face/head

 

 

Finally, check your fluids as often as possible, don't instantly shut your car off right after you come off the track, let it cool down for a bit, get some good sleep each night, and above all, make sure you are both learning, and enjoying yourself.

 

If you have a problem with someone on the track, or with an instructor, don't be afraid to talk with an instructor, or the head instructor. If you see something unsafe, point it out. On USMC rifle ranges, the common saying is that EVREYONE is a safety officer, and that makes a pretty good statement for the track, as well.

 

Dave

[FlyingDog]

I'm pretty sure, at least for NASA Rocky Mountain, that if you run out of gas on the track, you are done for that day, and possibly for the weekend.

That's strange. I know several people who have run out of fuel on the track (race and DE) and none have been penalized.

[gokimigo]

Can we fuel-up at the race track?? Also I wanted to know where we would park our cars at the race track if we're driving those for the day..

 

And where are the tech inspection places?? These are all the things that seem the most confusing of a whole HPDE day.. I can understand registering & all but just getting inspected, where to park, where to get gas (if at the race track), etc..

[ExRacer]

Most tracks have fuel available ontrack, however, it usually costs a grip more than at a pump in town. Fuel up right before you get on the road to the track. Every track has certain specific areas to get tech'd. The best deal there is to arrive early for recon (like 7:00-7:15AM) and be among the first in line for HPDE tech. It also may change dependng on direction the track is being used if various configs are possible. The smart drivers are tech'd early and tire pressures set with lug nuts torqued, engine warmed and all fluids checked/topped up and ready to proceed to pregrid before the drivers' meeting.

 

Be ready ahead of time with all the junk in trunk removed to a tarp where you're going to park. No CD's, gum wrappers, cameras, tools, spare tires, jacks etc. Think how you will be running the car ontrack and prep early. Have your helmet out of the bag and ready for the tech person to view its certification. Select a parking place that is closest to the download location or right up by pregrid always works best (less time running around the paddock and gives you more time to check the car instead of driving around or running) if you're gettin' behind schedule.

 

If you have time it is very smart to circulate and meet your tech chief and the registration area usually has enough savvy instructors hangin' around to guide you in track layouts. If you see some cars that are similar to yours it is also cool to hang with like vehicles to share info.

 

Dang Aaron that instantaneous 200ms passing setup poses a tough snap decision. If that was to happen, I can only think of turn 2 to 3 at Cal Speedway and I'm throwing my hand out with palm extended and tapping the brake lights to warn the fast closing car of the debris/fluid danger and wondering how that beast closed in on me so fast without me anticipating it! heh heh