tacovini Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Ignorant question. (No comments please.) How much slower (really) is a vintage car compared to a post-79 AI car with the same driver and same HP in both??? Reason I ask is that there were some very cool 65/66 vintage (Trans Am like) Mustangs at the SVTOA event here last weekend. Usual updating mods such as high HP, 4 wheel discs, 16" wheels etc...but retaining the leafs in the rear and Shelby modded front suspension. Probably our target vintage market if you ask me....Great guys and great cars...and I had a long discussion with them about joining us in AI. However....what concerned me was that on track, my little S/C'd SVT Focus commuter car was eating them all up! On my stopwatch, that's still almost 8 seconds off CMC times at TWS! ~12 seconds off mere mortal AI times! (No. They didn't appear to be rookie drivers and yes, they were running hard.) If vintage cars REQUIRE major Griggs or TCP (are they still in biz?) suspensions to be "running with the pack", then I think we need AI/V. However...if vintage cars can (at the very least) run CMC times without major reconfigured suspension geometry and expensive mods...then we don't need AI/V. (Before last weekend that was my understanding, now I'm not so sure!) Also...when I do finally complete my '67 Fastback with major Griggs suspension work, would I be relegated to AI/V or would I be able to spank the likes of my AI or AIX competitors in Texas if I so choose to be classed there? This provision would need to be clarified. That's my opinion as a racer. -=- Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted October 6, 2004 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2004 Todd you have hit the nail on the head - most vintage cars with stock leafs and suspensions and of course the very limited tire size due to wheel offsets and fender rub will run hard but slightly slower than your average CMC/AI car. Sure you can mod a vintage car to be competitive with AI/CMC/AIX but in order to compete in other organizations they usually have to remain 'period correct' - which also limits their brakes, etc. They may not all be as fast as the AI/AIX/CMC cars but they look cool at any speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 They may not all be as fast as the AI/AIX/CMC cars but they look cool at any speed Jim, No doubt the coolest looking, best sounding cars at any speed...but I was concerned that these particular cars had laptimes that were considerably slower than AI/CMC cars...I mean...rolling chicane speeds. (Perhaps I need to expand my sample cases.) Contrary to my original opinions, AI/V may make sense to attract these guys and justify the difference in economical laptimes! -=- Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Todd, the vintage Trans-Am cars that you see run times that would be competitive in AI. I would consider these cars legal for AI with the exception of the horsepower and perhaps the fenders on some of them. They are about 3100 lbs and run on vintage Goodyear race tires. I'm sure that if Kenny were to put a set of 17x9s and 275-40-17 Toyos on his Challenger, it would be a few seconds faster. Of course it would need about 150 hp less to fit the rules, but bigger brakes could be fitted and a few other things that weren't around then, and therefore not vintage legal. I'm not an expert, so I couldn't really guess how this would even out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Cosmo, Do you REALLY think that a true period correct Trans-Am car would be AI or AIX legal? If so you need to look at them again! Most were acid dipped and were modified WWWAAAAYYYY beyond anything allowed in AI. You should see some of the assembly pictures of the Trans-Am cars from the late 60's early 70's. Body's were taken apart and put back together again to increase the wheelbase or trackwidth (which I guess is technically legal given our current rules) and most frames were chopped and hacked apart. They looked like street cars from the outside but were actually pretty cool underneath. I know someone who raced back in the late 60's who still has the set of Ford part number stamps he was given so that anything on the car could be made legal (as many components had to be made available via the manufacturer). Those were really cool years..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Contrary to my original opinions, AI/V may make sense to attract these guys and justify the difference in economical laptimes! I will reitterate that adding another Vintage class is a mistake. There is also talk of splitting AIX into 2 groups. I say "NO". Make the cars fit into current classes with wieght, tires, whatever. AIV/CMC/AI/AIX/AIX+ all with basically the same cars? Come on guys lets come up with another way. 5 classes for mustang type cars is too many. Lets work on equalizing the rules! I like the 8.5 hp/weight idea. Keep up those kind of ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardC Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 I'll first ask what is the purpose of this? Is it to allow the Vintage guys another place to race or is it to get vintage cars into AI? There is a subtle but significant difference here. I think it would be great to see vintage cars on the track with late models and I think it would be something that spectators would like to see. Do they have to be in the same class? No. Why not give the vintage guys another avenue for races but not under AI rules. Give them a vintage rule set that would give them comparable times to AI and let the show begin. Richard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted October 6, 2004 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2004 I'll first ask - if a vintage car isn't an iconic symbol of "American Iron" then what is? posted as a racer who's building a vintage American Iron icon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horsewidower Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 There is no reason that a "vintage" car can't be just as fast as anything else on the track. I watched Guy Drier (sp?) and his AIX car race as an ITE regional scca car this weekend at Willow Springs. He missed getting the pole by .074 (the super production guy I crew for took the pole) and ran away from everyone in the race. Damn he is fast. If an AIX legal vintage mustang is beating purpose built tube framed race cars, there is no need to add a new class. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racercosmo Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Cosmo, Do you REALLY think that a true period correct Trans-Am car would be AI or AIX legal? If so you need to look at them again! Most were acid dipped and were modified WWWAAAAYYYY beyond anything allowed in AI. You should see some of the assembly pictures of the Trans-Am cars from the late 60's early 70's. Body's were taken apart and put back together again to increase the wheelbase or trackwidth (which I guess is technically legal given our current rules) and most frames were chopped and hacked apart. They looked like street cars from the outside but were actually pretty cool underneath. I know someone who raced back in the late 60's who still has the set of Ford part number stamps he was given so that anything on the car could be made legal (as many components had to be made available via the manufacturer). Those were really cool years..... Mark, nobody would race a $450,000 true vintage Trans-Am car in American Iron. I know this because I've asked almost everyone of them. Sure some of the guys with the non-factory supported cars might come out, but those cars don't have all of the tricks. We have a vintage TA racer in the AI West, but he bought a late model when he stepped over to AI. None of those cages would be legal and other safety items are clearly lacking and who would change them to fit in NASA? Would you? I have looked at pictures and I have looked at many of the cars and taken apart/put back together a few. Next time you're out at Sears Point, I'll take you on a tour. The Sam Posey Challenger, the 69 Donahue Camaro, 72 Javelin, and a few Mustangs make their home at this facility. I was really talking about TA clones, and all of the suspension items would fit in with the rules. You could make a car just as fast with less power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 The west coast is not ready for another class...any further subdivisions of the field out here would be a mistake. We would end up with 3 AIX cars, 2AIV cars, and 5 AI cars...Better to keep it all together until it grows some by whatever means necessary... west coast #46 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAI Racing Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I am a huge supporter of the AIV concept. I think the goal is to get guys who race "no history" vintage cars (like mine) with VARA, HSR and other to come and add car count. Thinking about Hal's example on the West Coast... This weekend, as I understand it, there are 3 AIX cars and 4 AI cars signed up. (I'm going to the Coronado vintage races this weekend, not Buttonwillow...) If you came up with 2 AIV cars, you would have 9 cars not 7. That is the target. More cars. SDR John has already said his car ('71 Camaro) will stay AIX. My car ('67 Camaro) is not currently vintage legal because I have a modern GT1 motor in the car. If I had an iron head 302, I'd be legal for vintage (everything else is vintage legal on the car now). I think some people have confused the cars we are talking about in this discussion. We are discussing "Vintage" cars (historic prep rules), rather than vintage cars (old unibodies). Comparing Dreier's car to a vintage car is nonsense. Dreiers car is a modern Speed GT type car (4 corner coil overs and a big ass wing for example) that happens to look like a vintage car. Vintage cars run under a significantly more restrictive rules set. OK, this is burning my ass a little because I have to keep repeating it... Vintage cars run on race rubber. There are no decent DOT tire sizes that meet the vintage rules. NO DOT TIRES IN VINTAGE. This means that all of the vintage A/S cars and BP cars are ILLEGAL in AI or AIX based on tires. Look at my car some time (sorry Peder, I was impressed that you caught it though). By the way, Dreier ran 1:29s at Willow last weekend. VARA A/S lap record is a 28... I have said this 10 times now. The vintage cars, when set up right and driven right are FAST! Most vintage guys are slow because they don't want to tear up cars or are new to racing, not because their equipment won't run with a Fox Mustang. Why not invite these guys to come hang out with us? Why not invite the guys who are building cars to live out a '60s Trans Am fantasy? They are going to run somewhere and I can bet you with a few exceptions, they aren't going to come to NASA unless we make them feel welcome. There are too many other options. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Cosmo, Do you REALLY think that a true period correct Trans-Am car would be AI or AIX legal? If so you need to look at them again! Most were acid dipped and were modified WWWAAAAYYYY beyond anything allowed in AI. You should see some of the assembly pictures of the Trans-Am cars from the late 60's early 70's. Body's were taken apart and put back together again to increase the wheelbase or trackwidth (which I guess is technically legal given our current rules) and most frames were chopped and hacked apart. They looked like street cars from the outside but were actually pretty cool underneath. I know someone who raced back in the late 60's who still has the set of Ford part number stamps he was given so that anything on the car could be made legal (as many components had to be made available via the manufacturer). Those were really cool years..... Mark, nobody would race a $450,000 true vintage Trans-Am car in American Iron. I know this because I've asked almost everyone of them. Sure some of the guys with the non-factory supported cars might come out, but those cars don't have all of the tricks. We have a vintage TA racer in the AI West, but he bought a late model when he stepped over to AI. None of those cages would be legal and other safety items are clearly lacking and who would change them to fit in NASA? Would you? I have looked at pictures and I have looked at many of the cars and taken apart/put back together a few. Next time you're out at Sears Point, I'll take you on a tour. The Sam Posey Challenger, the 69 Donahue Camaro, 72 Javelin, and a few Mustangs make their home at this facility. I was really talking about TA clones, and all of the suspension items would fit in with the rules. You could make a car just as fast with less power. Tell your vintage Trans-Am buddies to live a little!!! When I stopped by your shop a couple years ago I was almost run over in the parking lot by the green Challenger. I'd love to look those cars over! I have seen a few Trans-Am replica's around the midwest which are modified to almost the same level (which is pretty scary really!) I love being on track with the old cars but I'm wondering how many classes we are going to end up with when we are done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HistoricMustang Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Sorry I am late getting back to the thread. Been tied down with a project that is very important to me: http://www.historicmustang.com/memorialpage.html . Several years ago, I was the first early model to make the jump from Historic Sportscar Racing (HSR) to NASA because I felt like it would be fun, it would be affordable and my car would be competitive. I was right on all three points and I still believe that a well prepared early model can hang with the late model crowd. Doc, you also have raced with the likes of Craig Saigon and Brian Weeks on the Historic/Vintage side and heaven forbid Cobra Automotive brought one of their '65's to a NASA event. American Iron needs to move away from a NASCAR (not being negative) attitude in which they are the only vehicles on track. This attitude is one of the things that helped kill a good thing going up in the VA region. Road racing is about different classes on track at the same time - has always been that way and it is a ton of fun to race with 40+ cars weekend and weekout. Some faster than you and some slower than you but a winner in each class: AI, AIX and AI Vintage. And always remember you never collect a check but you do collect memories. Get all the American racers on track that you can (even include the Corvair, Pinto's, Chevy Monza's, Falcons and others) at the same time and by doing so you will build a series that you and NASA can be proud of. Heck, the numbers are off my '65 racer but perhaps Jim will let me come to an event and turn a few hot laps. Maybe even take a future racer or two around for some excitement. Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jim P. Posted October 12, 2004 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2004 And always remember you never collect a check but you do collect memories. Well put, Henry, I couldn't have said it better myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Retired? That's too bad. I love seeing the older cars join us. They add so much class and flare that a newer car simply can't compete with.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilson7 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Speaking of flares..... You can now put HUGE wheel flares on them to fit those 275" tires and still be legal for AI!!! That might actually make a few of the AIX cars AI eligible now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
66GT350 Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 I would love to see a vintage class come to N.A.S.A. My 66 Mustang and my budget would be better suited for an AI/V class (that is if it would be period specific rules). If I tried running aginst AI with factory A arms and leaf-springs, I'd get spanked. To much of that and I wouldn't race. Although I would like to see allowances for certain upgrades as far as breaks and saftey cages go. Drum breaks on a race track can get a little hairy. And a single roll bar might be a little disconcerning. Count me in for Vintage!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAI Racing Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 No one else has mentioned this yet, but thumbs up on this one guys. Hopefully all of us shite talkers will show up with our old iron ever now and again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HistoricMustang Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 You guys are going to be surprised at how competitve the early model can be. Remember, now with a vintage/historic class that stands on its own you will be racing against like cars - not late models. This is the true spirit of road racing - different classes on track at the same time. There will be events where a well prepared early model will win "overall". Having run with AIX in my early model I found the car very competive and was fortunate enough to finish 4th in points in 2003 with the old girl in NASA-VA. A well prepared early model such as Andy Killians here in the east or some of the guys running with Historic Sportscar Racing (HSR) will actually out perform the late models. If Cobra Automotive shows up with their stuff or John Cloud with his early model Camaro or Craig Siagon with his early model Camaro it is going to be a fantastic series! For those interested I have some of my early model stuff up at: http://www.historicmustang.com . I will be more than happy to help any of you gentlemen that want to run with NASA in the new vintage class. I sometimes wish I had not retired me or the old car as this is going to be a lot of fun. Perhaps the "powers to be" will let me show up and run a few hot laps for old time sake. Henry Jones AIX #97 - Retired Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HistoricMustang Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Another pic for the early models boys. Me and the late models at Lowes. Go have some fun! Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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