2005 Rules....Saftey?

[kevin67]

This is Mustang specific, I'm not up on F-body tech.

 

If I'm not mistaken, we are allowed to run the stock fuel tank in a Mustang and even RACE w/o removing the steering column lock. WTF??

 

This is a bad situation/ruling! Saftey is (or should be) paramount.

 

Will this be addressed?

 

I am first to admit that I raced this way for a long time, my back up car still needs to be updated, but since we are discussing things I thought I'd bring it up!

 

Please accept my appology if I am mistaken.

K

[pederb]

Good input Kevin

[Keith]

I still have my steering wheel lock and the stock fuel tank in my Firebird. It doesn't seem any more unsafe than an HPDE car...

 

If the fuel cell becomes a requirement, I will not run AI next year. This mod (along with a few other planned mods) would push it out of reach for me.

[mwilson7]

Keith,

 

The big difference is that in HPDE you probably aren't taking the risks your taking during a race.

 

I for one think that fuel cells should be mandatory (sorry keith) and don't have an issue with the steering wheel lock (although there may be an issue I'm not aware of).

[racercosmo]

Deck pins.

[z28racergirl]

I had to remove my steering wheel lock before racing, but I was teched by a non-AI dude and didn't have my AI rules with me. It was quite a shock for a newbie on the morning of her first race ever.

 

According to the CC&Rs 15.8 "The steering wheel locks shall be removed except where authorized by class rules or by exception from the Race Director." However, AI rules 5.3 state "Steering wheel locks may remain intact, but it is highly recommended that the steering wheel lock be removed."

 

Interesting. It doesn't specify Ford or anything else.

 

Christine

[bsim]

and the stock fuel tank in my Firebird. It doesn't seem any more unsafe than an HPDE car...

Remember, for the f-body cars, the fuel tank is outside of the driving compartment as stock. Since there's no trunk, if you intoduce a fuel cell, you need to cut the unibody and bring the cell INSIDE the car. THEN do your best to seal it off with some sort of firewall. There will be gaps, at least for the filler.

 

Maybe it should depend on the car.

[onralz]

Something to consider with fuel cells. I know it is a pain in the butt to install them and to pay for them, but it's not just about the driver of that car. Having a fuel tank rupture can endanger other drivers around them too. If it were to rupture and catch on fire, this could be a problem for cars that were in the same accident next to the car, and corner workers. I think that fuel cells are a good idea. Particularly ones with eurethane bladders to aid in an impact incase the outside casing is bent. I run an aluminum on with a eurethane bladder and feel very safe having it.

On the other side of the argument, I noticed when working on Lou Gigliotti's Corvette in WC that they run the stock fuel tanks. Amazed me, but in the Corvette, they want the tanks in the stock location because of the low CG. I find safety more important, but that's racing.

[Keith]

and the stock fuel tank in my Firebird. It doesn't seem any more unsafe than an HPDE car...

Remember, for the f-body cars, the fuel tank is outside of the driving compartment as stock. Since there's no trunk, if you intoduce a fuel cell, you need to cut the unibody and bring the cell INSIDE the car. THEN do your best to seal it off with some sort of firewall. There will be gaps, at least for the filler.

 

Maybe it should depend on the car.

 

This stated the motivation behind my previous post much better than I could have said it. I looked into a fuel cell and found it to be cost-prohibitive for my car.

 

However, my cage extends all the way to the very rear of the car, beyond the gas tank. ...and as a last measure of safety, the entire factory-stock rear bumper assembly has been retained. While all of these measures give me a weight penalty, they also provide significant protection from an impact causing the gas tank to rupture and are more cost-effective than customizing the car to install a cell...

[racercosmo]

Racing is expensive.

 

 

Edited for Luna's sake.

Really, I know how to spell.

Edited September 19, 2004 by Guest

[Keith]

Racing is exspensive.

 

Agreed. However, AI seemed to have survived for 3 (or more) years without modifying this rule. My car was built to these rules. If we really change it, what have we really done? We've worked to avoid a situation that hasn't occurred in hundreds (if not thousands) of track hours. Would things be safer with fuel cells? Yeah. Are there ways to enhance the safety in the absence of a fuel cell? Yeah. I'd like to think that my car was built to address this.

 

Things come across differently on the Internet. Please don't read this as angry or sarcastic. I'm just clarifying my viewpoint with the hopes of keeping my options open (AI, AIX, CMC). If fuel cells become a required piece, I can always go run CMC. NASA does present us with options.

[racercosmo]

I'm not trying to be argumentiitive, but can you tell which Camaro this fits?

[Keith]

I'm pretty sure that that is the third gen (1982-1992) cell.

 

Here is link to the catalog listing for it:

 

http://www.vilipend.com/~brian/FBodyFuelCell/DSC03878?full=1

 

Here is a link to a thread discussing f-body fuel cells in general, including the reference to that one...

 

http://frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=2176&s=5e160e9dc3e3d2a1d075538d17f3efe5

 

Ain't much and anything purchased would require "development" on the part of the supplier and the buyer... The drag cell is an alternative but it's a bit small for road racing...

 

Hmmm... I just thought of something. Maybe when the rules were written, this dilemma was known to the ruleset's author?

[trackboss]

The only argument in favor of the factory gas tank is that it is D.O.T. approved for street use and probably is crash tested. To what extent I don’t know, but it must be better than the ‘80’s chevy pickups. One problem I could see arise is that there are reproduction tanks available, and with these cars getting old they may see track duty if no proper fuel cells are required. Are those tanks gonna be as strong as the factory tanks? If it were me I would plan for a cell from the start. Yes it is expensive, but this is a serious safety issue and as has been said before it can endanger others around you. That being said, CMC cars for the most part do not have cells and we have to run in the same group so unless the entire group follows the same safety guidelines I suppose we are all in the presence of danger when it comes to this issue regardless of whether we chose to build a “safe” car or not.

[onralz]

Racing is exspensive.

 

So is an education in english. Sorry Cos, but I owed you one.

 

Expensive is the correct spelling. I'll send you a bill.

[Adam Ginsberg]

CMC requires the steering wheel lock be removed:

 

2004 CMC rules, Section 6.3, Steering Wheel Lock:

 

The steering wheel lock must be removed.

 

It should be the same for AI/AIX.

 

Cos' suggestion of deck pins is a valid one - I recall viewing race video from the WC, and seeing a Mustang hatch fly open as the car spun. That's why I started this thread.

Edited September 19, 2004 by Guest

[95CobraR]

I've always thought safety issues should be up to the driver unless it could effect other drivers. I would agree that a driver of a HPDE car may decide that they may not need as much safety equipment as a driver in one of the race groups.

 

I wouldn't go out to the grid w/o knowing my car was as safe as possible. I have a check list I go through before each race. I am confident that I am not jeopardizing another persons safety (I saw a hood fly off a car in front of me on a speedway track (140mph?); luckily it didn't hit another racer). I always check my tires and brakes before heading out.

 

Fire is a big concern. I keep my fuel cell up to date. The bladder should be changed; it can wear out. I check the fire system and refill it as recommended. I alway wear a 3-piece fire suit. I use only enough fuel in the car to complete each session. I've recently learned to be more careful when fueling the car.

 

I am also worried about my safety. You are going to eventually hit something. It will probably hurt. It could kill you. I use everything available to keep me as safe as possible: current full face helmut, belts (properly mounted), seat, window net, arm restraints, and a neck and head restraint.

 

No one is immortal. It's up to you to decide how safe you want to be. PM me if you would like to know what is is like to see a friend lose his life on the track. You'll never forget it.

[racercosmo]

This isn't a rule, but if you have removable steering wheels, make sure it's locked in place before you go on the track. A local sprint car driver had his wheel come off during a race and an official was killed.

[Black Horse]

Not really a rule envoking idea but rather just an procedural item - how about a uniform safety "checklist" that becomes part of the event safety inspection/release to race procedure by the NASA officials? This would keep the safety inspections at each event uniform and, in my opinion, allow a more thorough inspection of each vehicle. (Not to mention that the checklist would reflect current rule levels)

[94bird]

Might I suggest that if you plan on implementing a rule that says fuel cells are mandatory, you give 1 year's notice. As Keith mentioned this is a very expensive mod for a F body to do and with my other winter plans that I need to do just to get the car back on track, this would set me out for quite awhile.

 

However, I do believe that a F-body has a quite safe fuel tank location and would not convert to a cell unless the rules required it.

 

I also would like to reinforce the point that another made here. We are on track with CMC cars who are not required to do this. Either make this rule across the board or shelf it for now.

[Keith]

One last point then I will wait for the "powers that be" to make a ruling...

 

It seems that the SCCA T-2 rules do not require a fuel cell.

 

As 94Bird says, make it all or nothing (CMC, AI, AIX) if we are going to be proper about it.

 

Finally, I think that the f-bodies have a safer design than the Mustangs with regards to the tank location so consider your perspective based on the knowledge that you have regarding the variety of cars that can run in AI.

 

The decision on this one is paramount to me.

[MikeP-99Z]

If fuel cells are made mandatory for AI, then you will see almost no 4th Gen F-bodies in the class. This will also effectively eliminate any 98+ F-bodies since they can't run in CMC.

 

my .02

[mwilson7]

Mike,

 

I'm asking this from an ignorant standpoint but why wouldn't any 98+ F-Bodies be able to run CMC if they were required to have fuel cells?

 

I don't want to exclude anyone from racing but I also think that the speeds we are driving are FAR beyond what the stock fuel tanks are designed for.

 

I agree that it is expensive to add a fuel cell (don't ask how much we spent all together on ours!) but I figured it's cheaper than a funeral.

[MikeP-99Z]

I made the above post confusing with the 98+ statement.

 

CMC already rules out the LS1 cars due to HP.

 

The comment should have stuck to the point - being AI.

 

I don't disagree with your statement Mark, but I've raced my car for 5 years with the stock tank (SCCA T2), and I see no point in chopping up the unibody and bringing the fuel tank inside the car.

[RichardP]

I think that we should keep encouraging the use of fuel cells but I would not be in favor of requiring them.

 

I think we all agree that a properly done fuel cell setup is safer than a stock gas tank. But just because you have a "fuel cell" doesn't mean you are safe.

 

Fuel cells are not a one time cost, install it and forget it proposition. For a little more insight on some of the problems of fuel cells there is a good thread on Corner-Carvers (http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17311).

 

Fuel cells require proper installation and regular maintenance/inspection. The fuel cell bladders are only good for five years and given the questions about the composition of current fuels, I would consider that five year number highly suspect.

 

Whatever rules are in place, the responsibility for safety is ultimately up to the end user. Hopefully the people who have taken the extra step to protect themselves with a fuel cell are also taking the effort to maintain them.

 

If fuel cells are required, not only will it hurt participation of those not willing to take this expensive step but it ultimately could lead to the unintended result of making some poorly maintained cars less safe.

 

Trackside inspection of the cage, belts, suit, etc. are common and a good thing. Notice in the thread referenced above that the damage to the fuel cell bladder was not visible just by removing the cover plate and looking at the foam. A compromised bladder is not something that is going to be caught in an annual tech inspection.

 

Stock gas tanks aren't the best things but they are pretty close to idiot proof.

 

Play safe.

 

Richard P.

NASA TX AI #91