Modified 13/13 and bumping (aggressive racing)

[Pinnacle Racing]

As an experienced Club Racer from other disciplines, PCA, BMWCCA, etc., the rules strictly prohibit cars touching at all. Gentleman racing is how it's understood. I have fortunately been careful and clean for as long as I can remember. After speaking to a friend from the PCA today at our annual Holiday Party, he reminded me that he too will race with Nasa in one of the spec series for 09. He then told me to pay more attention as bumping is more mainstream here than in other series. I am really looking forward to a great season here but I can't help but think about the years of R&D than went into my race car and how I really want to bring it home from any race in the same condition it arrived in. Don't get me wrong here, I fully realize that stuff happens. A good friend (and incredible 914 racer) once told me, "A great racer knows what to do when it all goes wrong". That still sits in my head every time I strap in. I guess I want to be sure I'm driving with drivers that take this as seriously as I do. Being new to the GTS Challenge, I was somewhat reluctant to even post this but I guess discretion is the better part of valor.

Any thoughts are very much appreciated.

[Trevor57]

The GTS drivers that I know are good guys that seem to be pretty clean. BTW, I'm pretty sure nobody would tell you, if they had plans to ram you this summer.

[JSG1901]

Atomic,

 

That's a good question. I came from PCA a couple of years ago and I think the difference between PCA and NASA is that with PCA any contact is an almost-certain 13/13 whereas with NASA that is less certain.

 

I don't think there is much more contact in NASA (maybe less) but the rules are a little more understanding of the fact that drivers running very close to one another may occasionally touch. Recognizing that occasional incidental contact is an unfortunate but integral part of the sport, NASA doesn't penalize every scratch like PCA does.

 

You'll hear references to NASA's 50/50 rule which is, essentially, if you can't really see the damage from 50 feet at 50 mph, it doesn't count.

 

If all this is scaring you off, I've probably presented it wrong. Accidents happen in both PCA and NASA but I don't really think one puts you or your car at much more risk than the other. On the other hand, NASA's "softer" intepretation of the 13/13 rules lets you concentrate harder on the actual racing.

[911.racer]

I have raced PCA for years. I have had 13/13's under thier rule. All for contact with a vertical object, never another car.

 

I have raced NASA for about 5 years now and can count the body to body contacts, even incidental bumps durring the maylay of a start on one hand. I did make this great looking wheel clock...

 

I would say that the PCA rules are more aggressive and there are those that use the fear of punishment as part of thier driving style. In contrast, I see NASA drivers as more observant and aware of competitors cars.

 

I am very comfortable running with the GTS group.

 

Thanks

 

Ed

[Pinnacle Racing]

Hey guys,

This sounds encouraging. I knew the basis already of Nasa vs. PCA with respect to the 13/13 but didn't know if because of the rule, does Nasa trade paint more frequently. I'm sure there are many of us out there that put tons of effort in building a great car. I just thought it would be nice to enjoy mine as long as possible. I can be a very aggressive, but safe, racer. But if I need to choose between making it to the next corner before someone else and damaging my car, I'll concede the corner and wait for a better opportunity. I hope others feel the same way. Thanks.

[Fred Crawford]

I have raced both organizations. I have quit PCA and run Nasa , SCCA and PBOC. If someone wants to go to a parade PCA is the place. They have the prettiest cars.

 

 

 

Fc

[Lemming]

I have raced both organizations. I have quit PCA and run Nasa , SCCA and PBOC. If someone wants to go to a parade PCA is the place. They have the prettiest cars.

Fc

 

Not when I'm running with them

[JSG1901]

Not when I'm running with them

Do you mean "when" or "after"?

[Fred Crawford]

I have raced both organizations. I have quit PCA and run Nasa , SCCA and PBOC. If someone wants to go to a parade PCA is the place. They have the prettiest cars.

Fc

 

Not when I'm running with them

 

I forgot about you ....... ugly one.....

 

fc

[good hands]

I found the racers with NASA to be very respectful and just as courteous as PCA racers. In fact I actually had a guy tell me he'd feel bad if his 2k race car damaged my 30k race car I ran GTS2 and it was also very helpful that GTS2 is one of the faster classes on the track during the autobahn race which translates into fewer people trying to dive bomb you in corners. If you are running GT3 or 4 there will be a lot of expensive machinery out there with you and I am sure they want to go home in one piece. If you are ultra concerned with messing up your car I would go vintage racing.

[Fred Crawford]

I found the racers with NASA to be very respectful and just as courteous as PCA racers. In fact I actually had a guy tell me he'd feel bad if his 2k race car damaged my 30k race car I ran GTS2 and it was also very helpful that GTS2 is one of the faster classes on the track during the autobahn race which translates into fewer people trying to dive bomb you in corners. If you are running GT3 or 4 there will be a lot of expensive machinery out there with you and I am sure they want to go home in one piece. If you are ultra concerned with messing up your car I would go vintage racing.

 

totally agree....

 

Fc

[Lemming]

I forgot about you ....... ugly one.....

fc

 

I thought you cared, I was wrong

[cstreit911]

Racing in GTS IS aggressive, no question. There is contact here and there, with the nature of our close racing there is the potential. However I will say that it is NOT the norm, nor is it condoned nor (like in the case of spec Miata) do people sort of look the other way. I'll tell you (and anyone else, haha) that I would most certainly not take ANY contact with my car lightly. I don't think any in GTS have seen my temper, but crack some expensive fiberglass on my car and it will stand up on the soapbox, lol.

 

That said, 3 years in GTS and no contact other than a completely unavoidable double-slide in the grass which resulted in a buffable scuff on my rear bumper. I've seen contact, even some that I thought was avoidable, but no more than in any other group I've run with. (PCA and even vintage). This isn't the first time I've heard those comments come out of a PCA member, however I think these comments have sort of grown as PCA lore rather than having a basis in any actual fact. For whatever reason some things become "institutional knowledge" in car clubs that just don't hold water.

 

I run the Midwest Region GTS. Now mind you we only averaged 10 cars per event last year... ...but I had ZERO contact incidents to deal with. Not one.

 

Finally if someone starts getting too agressive and bumping folks, I guarantee the heat is coming down on them. Not many (if any) have enough money to be replacing fenders and doors every weekend.

[Pinnacle Racing]

Thanks Chris. I find it actually very interesting that so many people both at least read and responded to this thread since I posted it this morning. That, in itself, tells me a lot about people not out to trash anyones ride, much less their own. I feel I'll be racing with the right group of people.

[ryan325]

I can't afford damage, and I hate bodywork.

 

Ryan

[Mike Simard]

The GTS drivers are like lambs. It's the other groups that are also on track that are prone to risky driving, any spec class that's based on cheap cars is a prime candidate. I would guess that SE30 is the most likely to bump into you, just a guess though.

[Bruce L.]

yeah, because the 944's are so much more expensive they drive cleanly ...

 

The GTS drivers are like lambs. It's the other groups that are also on track that are prone to risky driving, any spec class that's based on cheap cars is a prime candidate. I would guess that SE30 is the most likely to bump into you, just a guess though.

[Mike Simard]

yeah, because the 944's are so much more expensive they drive cleanly ...

 

It's not just cost but beauty too

Just be glad they don't have spec Aztec, it would be mayhem!

[FlyingDog]

Keep in mind that most other classes in NASA do not have a 13/13 rule. I don't know about other regions or classes but in Mid-Atlantic CMC, out of class contact is taken very seriously. That is especially true of contact with GTS cars (some of us own German cars and know how much they cost to repair). I haven't been around long, but all the GTS-CMC contact I have seen was the fault of the GTS car making a bad pass. I don't foresee having any contact problems when I change over to GTS.

[bpanther]

I can be a very aggressive, but safe, racer. But if I need to choose between making it to the next corner before someone else and damaging my car, I'll concede the corner and wait for a better opportunity. I hope others feel the same way. Thanks.

 

I think this is why the lack of contact in GTS works. There is almost always a choice in body contact regardless of being "at fault" or not. I tell my GTS racers that the best way to avoid body contact is to not invite it.

[Damon in STL]

In the Midwest, sometimes GTS runs with the thunder group and sometimes with the lightning group. I personally prefer running my GTS2 car in the thunder group (....because we are then NOT with the miatas). And, I can typically make safer passes on heavier cars.

 

I have a general question that is slightly off topic. My GTS2 car puts down 166.1 HP to the wheels. At times while running in the thunder group AI, CMC, etc...., I've found some of the out of class cars (with a higher power to weight ratio) making it difficult to get by them while I'm trying to stay in contention for the race lead in my Class. I've had to make a couple of decisive and aggressive passes where the overall risk was at a minimum. But, after being behind them and watching my competition walk away. The question is (again, in general) do most classes stress to have a gentleman's agreement to allow other classes through? I myself try not to affect any of the other faster classes (or slower). I know there are some who will never make it easy to pass...but, is there some way to promote making out of class passing any easier/safer?

 

Damon in STL

[Pinnacle Racing]

What are the chances of GTS getting their own race group or at least a group that contains cars that people are truly concerned about the contact issue here.

As I read through this thread, I realize we are apparently not the problem, the less expensive car classes are, no offense to them, they need racing room too. FWIW, if I'm making a pass on $2000 Honda of Chevy, (no offense to said cars), that was slapped together the night before, and I endure contact because he shut the door in a corner on me, he and I will have a major problem come race end.

[Mike Simard]

I don't think you can escape aggresive driving and have to accept possible damage as the price to pay for the priveledge of having such great fun doing something with risk. Even vintage racing of nice historic cars sees boneheaded passes and mistakes. I've seen one historic prototype racer pass another in turn 10B at Road Atlanta and was amazed they tried it in such a bad turn for passing. Of course there was contact.

 

I'd like to clear up what I said before about spec cars It's not that they are simply cheap to race but the whole idea of spec racing makes it necessary to drive especially hard to be able to break from the group. A spec group are also racers who's first passion is the racing rather than the car. The car looking like a pre owned bread truck is just icing on the cake Having said that I still love to run with them, you definately know you're racing!

[Damon in STL]

What are the chances of GTS getting their own race group or at least a group that contains cars that people are truly concerned about the contact issue here.

As I read through this thread, I realize we are apparently not the problem, the less expensive car classes are, no offense to them, they need racing room too. FWIW, if I'm making a pass on $2000 Honda of Chevy, (no offense to said cars), that was slapped together the night before, and I endure contact because he shut the door in a corner on me, he and I will have a major problem come race end.

 

Don't get me wrong about what I'm referring to above. Most everyone I've driven with drives safely and is courteous. My class just isn't as quick in a straight line. Sometimes I get the impression that some of the back markers in another class just want to race someone. And, what they end up doing at times is just slowing others who are racing for position in class. I don't expect them to roll-over either. But, when there is a spot that will not affect each others lap times....it would be nice to be able to get by.

 

Damon in STL

[FlyingDog]

What are the chances of GTS getting their own race group or at least a group that contains cars that people are truly concerned about the contact issue here.

As I read through this thread, I realize we are apparently not the problem, the less expensive car classes are, no offense to them, they need racing room too. FWIW, if I'm making a pass on $2000 Honda of Chevy, (no offense to said cars), that was slapped together the night before, and I endure contact because he shut the door in a corner on me, he and I will have a major problem come race end.

I hate to break it to you but drivers coming from PCA with opinions like yours are more often the problem, not the guys in the 'cheap slapped together' cars. You haven't even raced in NASA and you're making veiled threats towards other drivers.

 

Stay away from in-class battles. Don't put yourself in a bad position for a pass. Do that, and you should have very little to worry about.