knapp302 Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Hi, I have decided to build an AI car from a stock 1996 Mustang Cobra. Before everyone pipes in about how I should buy one already done (I know, I know), I enjoy the build process as much as the driving. I am very particular too and would probably end up re-doing most of a car I would buy anyhow. I just finished building a Factory Five Cobra with my father, so I feel confident I can get a AI car built correctly with some help from fellow racers and suppliers. I am looking for advice from people who have built AI cars on what to watch out for and what works and what doesn't. I would really like to find someone in the Western NY area that actually owns one and has driven in the series. Please email me at [email protected] if you would be willing to chat on the phone and let me ask some questions. I plan on attending an event or two this year, but I would really like to see a car in person sooner. I have been reading the NASA and AI rules (about a 100 times) and doing a lot of research, but still have some initial questions. 1. For this year car, what has been the typical Roll cage, 8 point, 10 point ? Any suggestions for a supplier that is familiar with the NASA requirements? 2. I lean toward removing the ABS system, but should I? 3. What is a typical cost for a race weekend (not including lodging and gas). How much are entry fees and how long do tires and brakes typically last? (probably better to ask how many sets of brake pads do you go through in a weekend) 4. I would like to go with a fuel cell, but how many gallons would I need and are there any reasonably priced options out there? Thanks in advance, Marty Anyone need some stock 96 Mustang interior? haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Advice? Yeah, don't do it. Buy one already built! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Advice? Yeah, don't do it. Buy one already built! Ditto. Frankly you could probably buy one already built, modify what you wanted, and still be ahead cost wise. The key is to find one with a solid platform, and well built chassis and modify, clean up from there. Trust me. With an AI car, you will ALWAYS be modifying and maintaining it. Ask anyone. If I can help in anyway, just pm me. I'm from the Illinois area but may be able to help. Since I'm not going to be running in AI any more, I'm more likely to not worry about giving secrets away. Suggestion: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=24794 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8cobra99 Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 knapp302... if you are asking about any costs right now like you are... you need to stop for a few minutes and rethink this. Depending on how competitive you want to be, you are about to spend one hell of a lot of money, tons of time and a bit of heart pain... I know, as many others, as I turned a perfectly good mint condition 1999 Mustang Cobra into a winning AI car.... but it was a painful... but fun process. And initially, I thought it would only be a few hundred here and maybe a thousand bucks there.... yet once I wanted to win races, it got into a serious effort... and all initial work turned into rework.... then more rework... the more money wasted and spent again.... etc..... There are a number of good AI cars for sell right now.... if you never built a car, no one here is going to advise you to take this task on. Race weekend costs and fuel cells are minimal costs compared to what you actually might spend if you want to win..... If you dont want to win.... that is another case..... then you might actually have fun..... andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 I bought a retired professional race car and made what alterations were necessary to make it AI legal. The best race car in our region is a retired professional race car. The new car that I am working with was a professionally built track car that we are altering for AI competition. If you are new to racing, I can tell you that you are far better off having a car that is reliable and predictable so that you are only having to worry about your driving and learning. Building a race car is different than building a street car and I you will be more confident at the wheel of a professionally crafted race car. Plus you will save money. As for race weekend costs...What region are you in and what is the average distance to the race track? What are you hauling with and what are you hauling? Are you staying at the race track or at a hotel? Are you trying to win or just particpate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knapp302 Posted December 21, 2008 Author Share Posted December 21, 2008 Wow, you guys are tough. I really appreciate the constant comments about buying a race built car, but does nobody ever build a car for this series themselves? Has everyone that replied followed their own advice and bought a race car to start with? Not to mention, I did a fair amount of searching for a car that I thought I could start with and didn't see much I liked. I am not interested in a Fox body car and I really like the 4.6 DOHC engine. (odd considering I drive an 86 GT everyday to work). Anyhow, my initial goal is simply to participate. I don't expect to run more than one or two events a year to start with. I was simply curious about entry fees since I could not find mention of them anywhere on the NASA or AI websites. I have driven in high performance driving schools for the past five years and would like to go to the next level and this seemed like a logical step. I got one response already that was very helpful. I am just looking for people to bounce ideas off of and maybe take a look at their car if they aren't to worried about some big secret set-up I might see. I take this very seriously as I don't want to get injured or injure anyone else. Just looking to have fun, Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 I said what I said in part because I started racing with a friend that built his own car. We took the same comp license school. My first full year, I had one mechanical, a clutch. He was constantly chasing one problem after another with his car and it really took away from his enjoyment of it. There is nothing so fun as going to the track, having a problem in the first session and either having to load it up and go home or spend all night working on it and then being nervous whether its going to run or not. I can also say that after restoring a '69 Boss 302 from a basket case, its more efficient to buy a finished car than build your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted December 21, 2008 Share Posted December 21, 2008 Just looking to have fun,Marty Just looking to have fun racing/participating, or having fun building a project car for the next couple of years? An honest answer should point you in the right direction. Disclaimer: I built my last two race cars, but my next car (in a completely different claas) is going to be bought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-MAC Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Sounds like you have the resources and made the decision. Chassis flex is the weak link in the mustang and the torsional loads that wide Toyo R888's put on it are your enemy, therefore, prepare accordingly. Also, make sure your chassis is totally square before you begin modifications. Even if the car has never been wrecked, take it to someone with a laser frame machine and who knows how to use it. As for proven developed chassis/suspension equipment: Griggs Racing, Maximum Motorsports, Agent 47 and Steeda have all been successful in this series. I would pick one and use their equipment throughout the car and exploit their technical help. As for a rollcage, if you are a proficient welder, then I would customize my own. As for "what is or what's not" legal/acceptable in this series, John Lindsey (JWL) is the go to guy. Another goal is to hit the 2700 lb. weight minimum and Paul Brown at Tiger Racing can help, especially with your platform. That guy does "sick" body work. Another issue to consider is the fact that the racers in this series are fast and everybody has a "badass" car, therfore, when not building, I would be out on track in my dad's FFR. Also, good enough is not good enough or as Paul Van Valkenburgh writes, in regards to the entire race car, "99.99% correct is not good enough." Best of luck. P.S. As for a fuel cell, go with a proven, reliable and properly vented system. Fuel Safe makes a set up for your platform. P.S.S. TAKE YOUR TIME! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Wow, you guys are tough. I really appreciate the constant comments about buying a race built car, but does nobody ever build a car for this series themselves? Has everyone that replied followed their own advice and bought a race car to start with? Not to mention, I did a fair amount of searching for a car that I thought I could start with and didn't see much I liked. Buy one. Yes, I built the first one, but I bought an existing 99 Cobra (with no motor - well working motor) for the next car. I am redoing a lot on it, but the inital expenses were bought for $.15 on the dollar (really). I recommend buying one, just make sure it has a well built cage. Every thing else can be fixed fairly easily. Don't try to work around a bad cage. If it has a bad cage, you may as well start from new. Costs? Figure a budget of $1000 per weekend, then triple that number, and hide it from your wife. Oh, you aren't going to break anything? Me either. http://www.cgracing.com/images/MID%20ohio%20CRASH%202007%20024.jpg Entry fees are around $300 - $400 depending on the region and track. Go look up registration for an event at the National site to get actual costs in your region. Feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 First recommendation is do NOT use the 4V motor. They are heavier and to up the compression to get the torque out of them, you are going to have to build a big bore or stroker shortblock...otherwise you are limited to the 9.85:1 compression. The team that won our TX region this year is getting rid of their 4V motor and building a 2V VERY similar to mine as it is 40lbs lighter and makes MUCH better torque. Here is my input on building a competitive AI car as that is what I did using a 22k mile street car. I did it because I did not want to deal with the hassles of a 20 year old wiring harness and a worn out street car. Mine has been dead nuts reliable except for a few minor hiccups like the brake lights not working or a mysterious "crash" sensor I have yet to be able to find that keeps shutting the car off when the k-member hits the pavement. Having spent 100 cents on the dollar building a car from the ground up, I would HIGHLY suggest buying a sorted/proven AI car. One that has had all the suspension and aero work figured out and a motor combo that puts up BIG numbers under the curve. From there, I would redo the fire system and wiring harness and then spend time tailoring the car to my taste so I am maximizing my on track time for dollars spent. I have watched someone build a street car into a competitive AI car and it took them nearly 14 months all the while the car and driver NEVER saw the track. Granted they came out and hit the ground running, but these were EXPERIENCED drivers and racers that did this. As has been said, there are SEVERAL competitive AI cars for sale right now, including mine , to be had for 1/2 or less than what was spent on building them and they are ready to race TOMORROW! Once you start looking at a top notch AI car and see the 100's of hours prep that goes into one, you will start getting the idea of why we are saying buy a ready to race car! Good luck and always ask questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 If we are talking about specifics, go the push rod 351w route. This engine has torque all over the 4.6L stuff mentioned above and its far more reliable over the long haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onralz Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Don't mean to be harshing you, we're just trying to be honest. You are getting honest answers from people who've been there, done that. In my case I built the car from scratch. Multiple times for multiple series. It started as a chassis from Arizona and it went to a basic A-sedan then modded further to AI. So to answer that question: Yes I/We have built a car from scratch for this series. Yes it's very expensive to do it this way even WITH sponsors. I've had some great ones like Maximum Motorsports, Stoptech, Quarter Master, G-Force, etc. It's STILL expensive. If you are willing to spend the money, have at it. We'll be here to answer questions best we can. Whatever you end up with, if you aren't happy with it, you won't enjoy racing as much. From experience, it's easier and cheaper to modify a car that's been built than it is to start from scratch. I know it sounds like we are beating you down, but notice EVERYONE that has a race car here has replied the same? It's fun, it's exciting, it's a learning experience and you won't find anything out there like racing in a series like American Iron. BUT it is expensive and the more money you save building the car, the more money you can spend on track time which is far more valuable. Just my $.02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 If we are talking about specifics, go the push rod 351w route. This engine has torque all over the 4.6L stuff mentioned above and its far more reliable over the long haul. Don't know about that one... a 351 is WAY too heavy to be sitting on the nose of the car and we can't use an aluminum block 351.... My little 304 cube mod mill works just fine and the ONLY problem I have had in 3 years was a missed shift which put the motor at about 9k and holed a few pistons when they met the valves... Don't knock the mod motors....unless it's a stock bore/stroke 4V! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I believe the 351w with aluminum heads is lighter than the 4.6. Even if its not the weight is in the block and not in the giant cylinder heads. I could be wrong. Several guys that I that are successful with 4.6L's are telling me they are going back to the 351w. As I recall a 351 car one the nationals AI race this season as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I believe the 351w with aluminum heads is lighter than the 4.6. Even if its not the weight is in the block and not in the giant cylinder heads. I could be wrong. Several guys that I that are successful with 4.6L's are telling me they are going back to the 351w. As I recall a 351 car one the nationals AI race this season as well. An all aluminum 2V weighs less than a dressed 302 with aluminum heads and a 351 weighs A LOT more than a 302. As for a 351 winning nationals, well, he did start from the second row...there were a LOT of fast cars that got screwed on Saturday....so a media view of things would indicate the 351 is the end all I suppose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnett Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Wow dude..........We are trying to help. If you only knew how much experience was behind the people answering your post. Buy a car!!!!!!!! No such thing as a 2 year plan. HPDE your street car for 2 years then buy an AI car. I feel like a Forest Gump reference but I don’t want to turn you off. Call me for any help you need but it better mean you are racing in 09. I own the NASA Nationals Fri & Sat pole sitting car and its for sale, cheap. Decide if you are serious about racing, then call. Robin Burnett #21 Steeda Mustang 2008 AI National Champion 586-246-3287 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Oh no, the 351 is a class killer! Every one else must scrap their engines and go 351W. I'm kidding. Power to weight is power to weight. There are many ways to skin a cat, a 331 stroker is also very popular. I would caution you from implanting a LS1 chevy however. The Mustang's seem to spit them out of the chassis, in numerous pieces, in very short order. Some kind of underground chassis protest I guess. I have seen very few owners of the 4.6 that were happy with their combination for whatever reason. ***subliminal message*** Buy a car. You can't go wrong with Robin's, it's almost free. Chris Griswold 2007 AIX National Champion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ST#97 Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 I have seen very few owners of the 4.6 that were happy with their combination for whatever reason. Chris Griswold 2007 AIX National Champion Send them my way....I am sure I can come up with a combo that works for far less than swapping back to a windsor and end up with a very broad power band....all with off the shelf parts and nothing exotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knapp302 Posted December 22, 2008 Author Share Posted December 22, 2008 Let me say "Wow" again. Putting the engine discussion a side for a minute, I can't believe how much interest this post has generated. I really, really understand everyone's point on buy a built AI car, but I have to be honest, it's just not my style. I don't need to be racing tomorrow and I don't need to be competing for a championship my first year (or two or three). I would be o.k. with taking a year or so to build and test a car before showing up at an AI event. I find it odd that nobody understands the fun involved in the build process. I'm not going to say building a Cobra kit car is the same technically, but the process is similar. Research, buy the right parts, execute properly with the proper tools and test, test, test. I am a engineer by profession and I just don't like to skip those parts. I also believe in learning as much as possible. Even though everyone claims to be "giving" their cars away for pennies on the dollar, I haven't seen much proof of that. (now everyone is really gonna be pissed at me). For kicks, I would like to know what 94-98 AI Mustangs are available and for how much. I have been watching your classifieds, ebay and every other source I can find, but with little success. ( I can see the replies from this already, oh boy) Too close with, I have got some really helpful advice from this post, so thanks. This is the research phase of my build while I tear out the interior and shop for a roll cage. Again, I would ask if anyone knows anyone in the western NY area with a AI car, I would really like to talk to them. The depth of knowledge on this forum is obviously very deep and I know that will be of help in the future. I will now cancel my NASAforums login ID and create a new one so that I am not egged in the pits when I finally show up to an event. You guys are a crazy bunch, so I know some day I will fit right in, Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Marty, I don't have any Mustang build costs, but I'd venture to say that I'm over $20,000 not counting consumbables (except transmissions and rearends ). I have done everything myself with the exception of cage/motor/trans/rearend builds and the friend who does it for me is extremely reasonable. I got the car painted for $100 in materials with $25/gal tractor/trailer paint. I have $300 total in shocks/struts on the car, 12" CMC legal brakes that came off ebay from a JY, I still have the 20 year old stock radiator/booster/master cylinder/prop valve, I made the rear suspension out of circle track parts, and the only composite pieces on the car are an ill-fitting hood and a dirt track lexan spoiler. -You could duplicate my 305 for <$2500 carb to oil pan. -The car eats T5s (4 last year) so I finally ponied up for a T10 which would've been cheaper even running JY T5s. -10-bolt JY rear ends like to blow up too. Hopefully, a 9" is in my future. So, for $20,000 you too can own a cobbled together car that you have to work your ass off on that's constantly changing (and finally getting competitive), or you can go out and spend $15,000-$20,000 on a car someone already spent 2-5 times that on that you have to tweak a little bit. Besides, you're starting your build way to late to try to even HPDE this season. I started my build (V6 roller) in August of 2006 and here's how the car looked at my Comp School in April 2007: Yes, that's primer, with a red nose, a black hood, and a power steering pump giving up the ghost with a couple laps before halfway so I had to muscle it past halfway with no power steering to actually get my license. The car is still faster then the driver, because the car doesn't finish to get enough seat time. Out of 10 sprint races I attended this year, I finished 5. Of the 5 races I finished, only 1 was with a transmission that worked properly (had all gears, shifted, etc). My short racing career has been a character builder, but dammit, I have enough character and just want to race now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKnight Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I find it odd that nobody understands the fun involved in the build process. I understand your desire to build it yourself, and the desire to see the project through from start to finish. And I'm sure people enjoyed their builds along the way. So hey, go for it. But I suspect that if someone asked the same question 2 or 3 years from now, and you're participating on this forum at that point in time, you'd probably give them the same advice you're getting now. It sounds like you're pretty determined to build your own though, so have fun. It is an interesting process. My suggestion then is not to keep the receipts. You don't want to know how much you've spent when you're done. On edit - here's a link to a search for American Iron against the nasaforums.com calssifieds, since you'd wondered about cars that are for sale. search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=%2Bamerican++%2Biron++&fid[]=31&start=10 Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbodleimages Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 I am doing a build right now. I can give you some basic figures. $10k plus for a Ford Racing 4.6L Aluminator by a top engine builder. $4.5k Maximum Motorsports Grip Box $3.5k Moton Suspension Club Sport reserve cannister shocks and struts $2.5k T56 Transmission $3k 13" front brake kit. $1500 for carbon fiber rear wing $1k carbon fiber splitter. Thats $25k and I have not mentioned a clutch, a racing seat, steering wheel and adaptor, mirrors, racing harness, two or three sets of wheels, and various other required things. Thats just the parts. That doesn't include the car, either. In my case its a 99 Cobra from Bondurant, which comes already professionally balanced, with a fuel cell, fire suppression system, master power switch and so on. There is $30k to $40k in that car and after its sorted out and proven to be fast I am fairly sure that in this market I couldn't get $20k for the entire thing. You can buy a rockin' used AI car for $15k. You can spend $35k building it yourself or spend $20k and buy a front running car and have plenty of money left for other important things. $1000k for a traqmate data system, $1500 for a chasecam camera system, $500 for a cool shirt system. Consider that you could buy a great truck and trailer to haul your car to and from the race track with the money you saved. Food for thought. Thats why guys are suggesting buy a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Oh now someone tells me not to build a car from ground up. Where where you guys 2 years ago Only joking, I actually like the build process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Come on guys........ $10k plus for a Ford Racing 4.6L Aluminator by a top engine builder.$4.5k Maximum Motorsports Grip Box $3.5k Moton Suspension Club Sport reserve cannister shocks and struts $2.5k T56 Transmission $3k 13" front brake kit. $1500 for carbon fiber rear wing $1k carbon fiber splitter. Rob , Marty,I can tell you this is on the very extreme end of AI. Been following your build Rob very nice. How about your next project be searching for a used Ai car or building a budget Ai car for people on the other end of the budget. Your probably scaring people away with the cost involved in racing in American Iron "Budget" minded guys . Power to weight is power to weight. There are many ways to skin a cat, a 331 stroker is also very popular. I would agree with this as well. so a 351 won Nationals. and I Believe Mr. Desalvo Finished 2nd in a 4.6 dohc cobra engine in a old Rehagen Car? 4.6 2v 's in the mix with I'm sure a few 331's and 347's And I believe a few 306's in the mix as well . Go with what you want, look around ask questions like your doing. I would also watch the classifieds and give you this advice. If your hell bent on doing this car yourself then my advice is this. Build your car's cage the way you like it. Find yourself a AI car for sale with all the goodies on it. negotiate and buy it.Remove every part you need then sell the shell and leftover parts you don't need. Trust me on this, you will come out way ahead when it's over. My other advice is to get as much seat time as possible if you want to run up front. You can have the trick of the trick of cars but if you can't drive or have no clue how to set a car up your going to get whipped up on by cars with a lot less mods. Have fun building your car. your in the right direction by asking questions and alot of the guys that have responded in this post are offering you the help you need. Use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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