2005 Rule - NO CONTACT!

[mwilson7]

You know Adam, sometimes you can take all the fun out of a post!!!

[D Algozine]

Dave,

 

I believe you have been racing since MO which gives you 8 races. Doesn't that mean you get to remove your rookie stripes?

 

Mark W, you are correct, per the rules, as Adam as described, I can request to have my scarlet letter "R" removed. I will be getting all the info to LM very soon.

Mark L. , I appreciate the kind words. Actually I would like to thank all of the AI guys who have been helpful and generous with information. Everyone I've met has been friendly and inviting. This is were the group hug is suppose to happen. Just kidding.

[D Algozine]

Just to clarify. I'm not suggesting that the race directors have been lax. I think Lawrence and the crew do a great job. I would not want to make some of the calls they have had to make. That is a very diffucult job, however, I am in favor of instituting stiffer penalties for repeat offenders. So, when someone is determined to be at fault, there is a set of clearly defined rules that will deter further incidents. Rough driving will continue or even escalate unless the rules have some real consequences.

[Adam Ginsberg]

You know Adam, sometimes you can take all the fun out of a post!!!

 

Sorry. I guess that was the "Director" side coming out.

 

I owe ya a beer @ SEMA.

[95CobraR]

I'd vote for the 13/13 rule as Mark has suggested in his original post.

 

I've raced vintage with this rule for over 10 years and it works well. They allow the Chief Stewart to make the call after interviewing the drivers (those involved in the incident and those that saw it), the corner workers, and any video available. I think they have an appeal process but have never heard of any being reversed.

[onralz]

You know Adam, sometimes you can take all the fun out of a post!!!

 

Sorry. I guess that was the "Director" side coming out.

 

I owe ya a beer @ SEMA.

 

We've always thought you were full of something and lately you've been proving it is tech.

Seriously you have been going out of your way to show the actual rule as it is written for clarification. If I haven't said it, thanks as that does really help. I'm personally too lazy as I can't figure out how to copy and paste off the Adobe thing.

[mansier]

To answer Mark L:

 

The process for the RD would be the same with the 13/13 or without it. The process would I mean. One of the things to beware of, is what can happen after a decision has been handed down from the RD. Let's say the driver made side to side contact with another driver going into a corner, causing no deviation, no position change, and no damage. The corner worker says the contact was not intentional, and neither driver are at fault. After taking all of the evidence into consideration, the RD says there is no penalty. At this point some of the other drivers (involved or not involved) all pile on the Series Director for him/her to do something about it. The Series Director job may already be complex enough, and adding this on may be asking even more. Unless the competitors realize that the Series Director is already looking into it, and allows them to do their job, this may not work.

 

In our case, Eric would already be a part of the investigation, and would make a decision based on the evidence provided. His decision (and that of the RD) would need to be respected as final. At no time could we tolerate any Series Director being abused by people with differing opinions. It would ruin his weekend, and probably ruin some others weekends just from getting involved in something they currently don't have to.

 

If we could leave the heavy decisions up to the RD, and in this case, the SD, it will work, and everyone will have a great, fun, vacation.

 

LM

 

PS: As the event director, I would have no problem handing out the 13/13 penalties. Again with the above guidelines.

[D Algozine]

Lawrence is right on. Badgering the RC or SD is unexceptable and should not be tolerated. Dicisions are final and if your unhappy about it, your only recourse is to file an official protest.

My feeling is that stiffer penalties should help minimize the incidents, but that may be wishful thinking.

[Jeff F]

Why in the world do we have different driving/contact rules for different classes?

 

I didn't realize that GTS had their own driving/contact rules... which is even more ridiculous because in OH/IN we are in the same race group! Does this mean that I can bump a GTS car and get past him, but he can't do the same to me? Had I know that, I'd have gotten by Joe much sooner!

 

I fully agree with the 13/13 rules and the other rules proposed. Incidental contact happens, but let's not make a habit of it. Anything done on purpose is not acceptable. I think the best thing for everyone would be to adopt these rules across the board in the CCR.

 

Next thing you know, we'll have class specific flags:

Blue flag with a white stripe: Chris Griswold is coming up on you, move out of the way!

Black Flag with a orange dot and notch cut out of it: Come into the pits, your frame is illegally modified!

Red and Yellow Flag with Golden Arches: Beware of slippery conditions, Mark Luna's car is dropping french fry oil on the track!

[Black Horse]

Next thing you know, we'll have class specific flags:

Blue flag with a white stripe: Chris Griswold is coming up on you, move out of the way!

Black Flag with a orange dot and notch cut out of it: Come into the pits, your frame is illegally modified!

Red and Yellow Flag with Golden Arches: Beware of slippery conditions, Mark Luna's car is dropping french fry oil on the track!

 

Oh great Jeff, now how am I going to get all this Mt. Dew I just sprayed all over my keyboard cleaned up? That was just too funny!

[EFisher12]

I feel that having a black and white ruling on contact puts drivers and teams in a tricky position. There needs to be some lattitude given to the parties involved based on the particular situation at hand. I believe in highly competitive racing ( which AI has become ) contact at times can be simply unavoidable and can occur with many degrees of variance. Although an important rule and one not to be taken lightly, contact violations during a race should be investigated by the Series Director in order to evaluate the degree of guilt and to insure the punishment handed down fits the crime. Just my opinion.

 

Elliott Fisher

Panoz GTS Racing Series # 71

American Iron Competitor/Champion # 12

[mwilson7]

Actually Jeff that's interesting that you post this because we were going to buy Griswold a set of yellow vinyl stripes to put on his car so when he comes up on people all they see is blue and yellow in the rear view mirror. If that doesn't work we were also thinking of giving him his own passing flag.

 

Mark L's car is the only car that I know that runs on french fry grease. Mind you it's not a bad idea.....

 

Lawrence - Would that mean that we couldn't abuse Eric in any of the ways that we already do? If that's the case I might want to reconsider my position.

Edited October 14, 2004 by Guest

[mwilson7]

Elliott - Aren't you in the wrong forum? Is your season over yet and if so how did you do?

 

I think the idea here is to reduce excessive contact. EVERYONE understands that some contact is going to happen but we need to have a good enough deterent that people will think twice (or three times) before not giving someone racing room or forcing their way past someone. We have proven in the past that we can have large fields running REALLY close AND avoid contact. What I see missing in the rules is any deterent that would penalize someone for using "incidental contact" as an excuse to move through the field.

 

If we don't do it now it's going to be much harder to do in the future.

[EFisher12]

Mark, Im always on the wrong forum.... but as usual I don't have the time or energy to read your 13 page posts to truly get an idea of what you all are getting at.

 

I do know this, any time you step up the competition and race hard the amount of incidental contact will also rise, that you can count on. You stated in the past AI had large fields of racers and not much contact... do you really think AI is at the same level of competitiveness as it was last year...? I think not. Im simply stating there needs to be degrees of penalties based on the type of contact that occured and why. I don't think any AI racers use contact as a tactic to move up through a field.

 

Elliott

[D Algozine]

Elliott - Aren't you in the wrong forum? Is your season over yet and if so how did you do?

 

I think the idea here is to reduce excessive contact. EVERYONE understands that some contact is going to happen but we need to have a good enough deterent that people will think twice (or three times) before not giving someone racing room or forcing their way past someone. We have proven in the past that we can have large fields running REALLY close AND avoid contact. What I see missing in the rules is any deterent that would penalize someone for using "incidental contact" as an excuse to move through the field.

 

If we don't do it now it's going to be much harder to do in the future.

 

Mark nailed it exactly.

[D Algozine]

I do know this, any time you step up the competition and race hard the amount of incidental contact will also rise, that you can count on. You stated in the past AI had large fields of racers and not much contact... do you really think AI is at the same level of competitiveness as it was last year...? I think not. Im simply stating there needs to be degrees of penalties based on the type of contact that occured and why. I don't think any AI racers use contact as a tactic to move up through a field.

 

Elliott

 

There may be different degrees of contact, but either someone, or both, is at fault or no one is at fault. It does't seem realistic to decide the severity of each incidnet. It was either an ill-conceived move or it wasn't. Allowing a stepped system would open the door to considerable more debate.

Racers may not use contact to move through the field, but they also, are not to worried about the consequences if there is contact.

[swhiteh3]

Next thing you know, we'll have class specific flags:

Blue flag with a white stripe: Chris Griswold is coming up on you, move out of the way!

Black Flag with a orange dot and notch cut out of it: Come into the pits, your frame is illegally modified!

Red and Yellow Flag with Golden Arches: Beware of slippery conditions, Mark Luna's car is dropping french fry oil on the track!

 

Oh Gee, thanks Jeff. I nearly spit the water I was drinking all over my keyboard!

[EFisher12]

Dave, Mark always nails it right on the head, don't you know that yet or are you just a rookie forum reader ? Wait till someone checks up on you in tight traffic and you bump the fellow competitor without intent resulting in a DQ. I think you will see the need for review on contact at that time.

 

Elliott Fisher

[D Algozine]

Dave, Mark always nails it right on the head, don't you know that yet or are you just a rookie forum reader ? Wait till someone checks up on you in tight traffic and you bump the fellow competitor without intent resulting in a DQ. I think you will see the need for review on contact at that time.

 

Elliott Fisher

 

I've thought about that, and honestly I may have a different view once I'm involved in some questionable incidents.

Its interesting that you bring up brake checking, because I heard that term thrown around last weekend. That is a difficult situation for the second guy, because he is always at fault, but may be a victim. I don't have an answer, other than if your on probation, you're going to have to be very careful. What else could be done? There are always going to be difficult calls and victim's of curcumstances, even the way the rules read now. It's never going to be perfect.

The way I read the 13/13 rule, every contact will still be reviewed, but if you're found responsible, you will be put on probation, which could lead to suspension if your found guilty a second time. But, if your not responsible than your record remains clean.

 

Another situation: The same guy who punted someone off the track last month pulls a crazy move and knocks you off track. How pissed are you knowing he has a history of banging cars around? Sure he get's DQ'd from that race, but that doesn't do you any good.

Currently the reward for making a wild move is still greater than the punisment if you screw up.

 

Has anyone been put on probation, and then been involved in another incident? Anything happen to them?

 

Perhaps the existing rules are enough, but need to be tightened up, but something should be adjusted.

[mansier]

Dave:

 

In referrence to OH/IN: I am not sure of any AI drivers, but we have had drivers on probation that had contact and were put on suspension. Not many, but it has happened a few times. I can also remember a certain gentlemen who retaliated after being hit, then got punted. He came up to the timing and scoring building so hot we locked the doors. Both got DQ'ed, a suspension, and a probationary period. Guess who got a much longer suspension?

 

LM

 

The main difference between the two, is that the 13/13 immediately lengthens the probationary period. Then if it happens again, you are out for a year.

[bmw22]

Chime Chime Chime!

 

 

As requested above, I'm chiming in! Here is a brief history behing the GTS Challenge 13/13: 95% of GTS racers come from a PCA or BMWCCA back ground. Both the PCA and BMWCCA have a very strict 13/13 rule, many feel it's way to strict. Their 13/13 rule puts you on probation for incidents that don't even involve another car. However, the drivers do like the protection a 13/13 gives you from other cars.

 

Now here are the problems with our 13/13 rule.

 

1. Mixed run groups. we can't enforce our rule on a car that isn't in GTS.

 

2 Enforcement. It can be a lot of work to handle an incident. Interviews, evidence, appeals, etc..... Our officials are racers, and we don't want to waste our beer drinking time messing with this stuff. (I'm just be honest)

 

3 Two sets of rules regarding contact.(GTS 13/13 and NASA's) Because of the nature of NASA, one NASA region is very different from another. Each NASA regional director handles contact incidents they way they feel is best for their region. Consistancy is hard to maintain across regions.

 

4 The ultimate penalty in a 13/13 situation is a 13 month suspension. This may not sit well with the NASA director since that would mean several hundred dollars of lost entry fees. Afterall, it is a business.

 

The final authority lies with the NASA director.

 

At the last few IN/OH events, Lawerence has put a very good system in place to handle these incidents. I had a chance to experience his system first hand on Saturday at Putnam. As the victim in an incident with a non-GTS car, I was satisfied with the way it was handled by NASA/Lawrence.

 

If all contact is going to be looked at and dealt with like I saw on Saturday, I may suggest that GTS Challenge abandon our 13/13 rule at OH/IN and the new Midwest region events.

 

In summary: The modified 13/13 rule that we have in GTS Challenge is a great rule, BUT it is very difficult to enforce when it is superceded by NASA rules. At least 80% of all contact for GTS cars in the past 2 years has been with cars from other non-13/13 series, so our 13/13 rule didn't even apply.

 

My suggestion to all of you AI folks is that you keep communicating with your officials and with NASA officials. There is no set of rules that can address everything that could happen. Even at the top levels of motorsports they still have these problems. Just look at some of the stuff in F1 this year.

 

I know that I didn't provide any great insight or wisdom here, but maybe a contibuted a thought or two that has been over-looked.

 

BTW, your races at Putnam were a blast to watch.

 

Why can't your big and loud V8s keep up with that little 3.4 litre Porsche?

 

Mark

[gbrown8439]

Has anyone been put on probation, and then been involved in another incident? Anything happen to them?

 

To answer that question: Yes someone has been put on probation and when they hit me again the very next race nothing was done! What is the use in putting someone on probation if there is no penalty for violating that probation? Why make more rules that can't/won't be enforced? I would be happy if they would enforce the no contact rules they have!

 

Greg Brown

OH/IN AI#7

[mansier]

I would have to check the notes on the incident Greg has spoken of. However, I will respond with this:

 

The level of AI racing in the OH/IN region has risen far above that it started the year as. As a whole, the racing in OH/IN has become much more competitive as more drivers are gaining the experience, equipment, and track time they need to become faster. Along with this, the officiating and training of officials has followed suit. We are dedicated to the continued growth of our officiating staff, and the support of our racers.

 

As a part of the January banquet we will be holding workshops on several items:

 

Neck Support Devices

Safety Equipment

CCR rules interpretations

Etc.

 

See you all then. However, our kart racing team from last year will be ready to defend our championship!

 

LM

[onralz]

LM thanks for the info. It helps to have you involved in the discussion. I know the idea behind these was for the directors to watch, but this is one that it was a good idea to be involved. BMW 22 (Mark) thanks also for your input. It also helps to hear from someone doing it even if they do drive a Porsche.

No doubt we need to address contact. Does someone have a way to write the rules to help the directors to enforce the rules? Anything that keeps a beer in their hand is a good idea. I'm not joking either.

It wouldn't seem that the 13/13 scenario helps except for us not being allowed to jump all over Eric. I kind of enjoy that.

At Mid-Ohio Beau and I had a minor touch that barely even left paint. Both Beau and I spoke with Eric about it and we agreed it was a racing incident. No harm, no foul. No positions were exchanged, and no dents were exchanged. Beau and I had a great race and there was nothing but smiles and handshakes at the end. Those type of events need to be considered non intential contact and shouldn't be penalized. If even on person claims fault on someone else, it should be considered intentional. When trying to differentiate intential contact and incidental contact maintaining positions should be kept and no body damage should result from the incident. To me that is could generally be considered incidental. When positions change or B.A.D happens (big ass dents) that would be considered intentional. If someone hits someone in front of them and makes up a position and the contact wasn't intentional, they should drop back to their original position that way the directors would note that it wasn't intentional and the driver did the right thing. If they realize upfront that if they gain something by contact there will be an investigation than people are less likely to have contact. If they have contact ant gain position but know if they drop back nothing will happen to them, they control their own fate. If it was intentional, than the video, corner workers, other drivers and so on can determine the fault. I still like the simplicity of if two cars are racing for position, the car in front has the "right of way" and any dents will fairly easily determine who was at fault along with the rest of the potential evidence.

Adding stricter fines or probations to our existing rules would also be a good idea. Once a person has been put on probation, fine them. That will eliminate the "hit" the series will take on losing a driver for multiple races. I don't mean thousands, but a couple hundred bucks would still make a "dent".

 

Next thing you know, we'll have class specific flags:

Blue flag with a white stripe: Chris Griswold is coming up on you, move out of the way!

Black Flag with a orange dot and notch cut out of it: Come into the pits, your frame is illegally modified!

Red and Yellow Flag with Golden Arches: Beware of slippery conditions, Mark Luna's car is dropping french fry oil on the track!

 

Too funny. I can bring my own flag if you like! We've got a new one to go along with our new chicken select promotion. Defend your chicken! The other that we made is "don't choke on my chicken".

Maybe the notching flag could be a picture of a Mustang Notchback?

Griswolds flag should have a middle finger sticking up on it. Ask me how I know that.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Has anyone read the 2004 NASA CCR's? Do each of the competitors have a copy with them at the track?

 

2004 NASA CCR's, Section 23.1 Participant Conduct - Expectations, subsection 23.1.3 Knowledge and Possession of the Rules:

 

All drivers must know all of the rules, especially those pertaining to safety items. Additionally, all drivers must have the appropriate rule books in their possession, or have immediate access to them at all times.

 

There are three (3) sections that address just about everything you guys have described here:

 

2004 NASA CCR's, Section 25.0 On Course Conduct

 

(See also Appendix A)

 

and,

 

2004 NASA CCR's, Appendix A

 

and,

 

2004 NASA CCR's, Appendix B

 

The Texas region learned the value of these sections earlier this season. IMO, once you read ALL of those sections carefully, you'll see there isn't a need add them yet again to the Series rules.

 

2004 NASA CCR's, Section 26.0 Appendix A:

 

The purpose of this appendix is to review and clarify the rules of the road as applied to NASA road racing. The following is are excerpts from the NASA Club Codes and Regulations (CCR)

 

2004 NASA CCR's, Section 25.0 Section 25.0 On Course Conduct, subsection 25.3 Rough Driving:

 

Any driver, deemed by the Race Director, displaying rough or unsportsmanlike driving might be penalized. The Race Director shall determine the course of action. [Note: In some cases the driver will be required to spend time with the Chief Driving Instructor. The intent is to educate the driver on safer methods of racing.] If a driver is determined, by the Race Director, to be at fault in a collision that sent the other car significantly off the track, he/she may be disqualified from the race or qualifying (different rules apply to enduros). The Race Director has the right to waive or modify this penalty should the situation warrant.

 

2004 NASA CCR's, Section 27.1 Issuing Penalties:

 

The IRB may choose to issue any penalty for any infraction. However, it is highly recommended that they follow closely with what is published in the rulebook. Any deviation from what is published without due proof of mitigating circumstance may be grounds for appeal. The following is a list of suggested penalties for the listed infraction:

 

1. Contact bumper to bumper with no deviation and no damage: No penalty

2. Any sheet metal contact with no damage and no deviation: No penalty

3. Any contact causing deviation, with no damage, but loss of a position: Reposition

4. Any contact resulting in “damage” as defined by these guidelines: One (1) race suspension

5. Any contact resulting in a “punt” as defined by these guidelines: Disqualification

6. Any contact resulting in damage and punt: Disqualification and one (1) race suspension.

7. Passing under a standing yellow or double yellow: Reposition to last place (minimum).

8. Passing under waving yellow and / or over-driving any yellow: Disqualification (minimum).

 

These are general guidelines for standard penalties. They may be additive or multiplicative depending on the situation and the person’s past record. The IRB may invoke more severe penalties for repeated violations. Any deviation from these guidelines should be justified in the report to the Race Director.

 

I can tell you with complete certainty that we put a driver on a 3 event probation due to more than one instance of contact. That driver elected, on his own, not to return to the series.

 

At our Sept race, I ever-so-lightly bumped an AI rookie causing no deviation in line, no off-track excursion, no damage ( other than a mark on his bumper cover ), and upon return to the pits, was put on probation for one race. It was noted in my logbook, and had to be signed off by a director.

 

The NASA Texas Event organizers/Race Director(s) have been very good at handling contact on the race track. They keep an eye out for folks that have continued to be a problem, and do not hesitate to put their collective foot down to stop the problem.