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Lemming

Making wt and hp/tq numbers public?

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B.Watts
scales and dyno's make cheating and getting away with it only slightly more difficult and are fundamental to GTS's success.

 

Fixed.

 

That said, I agree that it doesn't really make much sense to have such a simplified rule rule set if we have no means/intention of enforcing it. Might as well make the rules more complicated in an attempt to even out the competition and make for closer racing, IMO.

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vinnymac

I wouldn't have any issue displaying my HP/TQ and WT numbers. In fact, the Midwest and Great Lakes regions use race tech stickers that have the numbers clearly displayed at every event.

 

Regardless, I think it's a novel idea and would be cool to see what everyone is running. I don't think it would deter any cheating because it would be easy to sandbag a dyno run if someone wanted to.

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cosm3os

Vincent:

 

Consider yourself protested for this weekend!

 

See you tomorrow . . .

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streak

That said, I agree that it doesn't really make much sense to have such a simplified rule rule set if we have no means/intention of enforcing it. Might as well make the rules more complicated in an attempt to even out the competition and make for closer racing, IMO.

 

I thought you didn't want rules:

 

Your post from the infamous Spirit thread:

 

"I'm reading a lot of whining about a little bit of weight in a class that allows UNLIMITED MODIFICATIONS. Weight is the LEAST of your concerns if you aren't competitive. There's nothing in the rules that prevents any performance modification...UNLIMITED RULESET. This is NOT a class for the budget minded. Sure, it's a class where the budget minded have been able to be competitive to this point (as interest in the series has grown and cars have crossed over from limited ruleset classes in other organizations), but the rules, at their very basis, are designed to allow silly amounts of car development. Our car is one of the fastest and most developed chassis/suspensions in all of BMW CCA club racing, and yet it's only a small percentage of what we could do within the GTS rules. An ALMS M3 or GT3RSR is "under developed" compared to what the rules allow. If you limit the amount of weight someone can bolt into the car, they'll simply add some more bars to their cage or a larger oil tank for their dry sump system.. A weight limit solves nothing from a performance standpoint and only increases the cost of adding weight to the car."

 

What rules would you propose? Not picking a fight, seriously. Limiting ballast seems like the first rule to "even out" the competition. Would you propose tire widths? Wing sizes? Something akin to PT with a point system?

 

I don't know enough to know what an effective yet simple ruleset would be so just to be clear before the pile on, I'm not suggesting a rule change, just having a discussion.

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B.Watts

That said, I agree that it doesn't really make much sense to have such a simplified rule rule set if we have no means/intention of enforcing it. Might as well make the rules more complicated in an attempt to even out the competition and make for closer racing, IMO.

 

I thought you didn't want rules:

 

Your post from the infamous Spirit thread:

 

"I'm reading a lot of whining about a little bit of weight in a class that allows UNLIMITED MODIFICATIONS. Weight is the LEAST of your concerns if you aren't competitive. There's nothing in the rules that prevents any performance modification...UNLIMITED RULESET. This is NOT a class for the budget minded. Sure, it's a class where the budget minded have been able to be competitive to this point (as interest in the series has grown and cars have crossed over from limited ruleset classes in other organizations), but the rules, at their very basis, are designed to allow silly amounts of car development. Our car is one of the fastest and most developed chassis/suspensions in all of BMW CCA club racing, and yet it's only a small percentage of what we could do within the GTS rules. An ALMS M3 or GT3RSR is "under developed" compared to what the rules allow. If you limit the amount of weight someone can bolt into the car, they'll simply add some more bars to their cage or a larger oil tank for their dry sump system.. A weight limit solves nothing from a performance standpoint and only increases the cost of adding weight to the car."

 

What rules would you propose? Not picking a fight, seriously. Limiting ballast seems like the first rule to "even out" the competition. Would you propose tire widths? Wing sizes? Something akin to PT with a point system?

 

I don't know enough to know what an effective yet simple ruleset would be so just to be clear before the pile on, I'm not suggesting a rule change, just having a discussion.

 

I think you missed my point. The beauty of the simplistic ruleset is that it is easy to enforce. BUT, if we aren't going to enforce them, why bother leaving them so wide open? If we can't enforce even a simple set of rules, we might as well complicate them and trust that most racers will follow the rules as we are doing now. A narrower set of rules would certainly make for more even cars.

 

I don't think we SHOULD make the rules more complicated. Actually, I think we should remove the current rule that penalizes slicks. I am simply playing devils advocate...the power/weight ruleset has been suggested in BMW CCA club racing because it is "easy to enforce". I simply wonder what good having "easy to enforce" rules are if no one enforces them.

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streak

I have a rule to suggest. It's both easy and enforceable:

 

Any car newer than 1986 runs with a 3 second per lap penalty

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B.Watts
I have a rule to suggest. It's both easy and enforceable:

 

Any car newer than 1986 runs with a 3 second per lap penalty

 

Is the car defined by the motor, the chassis, the suspension, etc? We have what could be a 2006 motor in our 1995 chassis and various other Frankenstein parts from various years of BMW's.

 

I'm good with your rule as long as every other part on your older than 1986 car is from 1986 as well. Shocks, tires, electronics, etc.

 

At some point over the last 9-10 years that we've been racing this car, it has gone from "new" to old. If I decide to use Hoosiers from 1998 I know I'm at a disadvantage to guys from Hoosiers from 2008. Time marches on.

Edited by Guest

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Lemming
I have a rule to suggest. It's both easy and enforceable:

 

Any car newer than 1986 runs with a 3 second per lap penalty

 

>1988 and I'll sign the petition

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cwbaader

Ian, Byron's post is the explanation of my post about enforcement. Now, consider this: cars can be weighed at the track. Cars must be loaded in the trailer, and moved to a dyno anywhere from 1hr to several hours from the track. Should the protest be on Saturday are you going to require the racer to do just that? And what if you throw paper on Saturday evening and the racer gets called home on Sunday? I think what we are all saying is that the rules are fine (except, IMHO, the hp/tq rule) what we need is at track enforcement. There are too many things that can be manipulated by the racer prior to the dyno run. There also needs to be strict instructions that the car be impounded at the time of protest and not touched by the racer until after the dyno run. That is my idea of enforcement....at the track, randomly. Chuck

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Lemming
Ian, Byron's post is the explanation of my post about enforcement. Now, consider this: cars can be weighed at the track. Cars must be loaded in the trailer, and moved to a dyno anywhere from 1hr to several hours from the track. Should the protest be on Saturday are you going to require the racer to do just that? And what if you throw paper on Saturday evening and the racer gets called home on Sunday? I think what we are all saying is that the rules are fine (except, IMHO, the hp/tq rule) what we need is at track enforcement. There are too many things that can be manipulated by the racer prior to the dyno run. There also needs to be strict instructions that the car be impounded at the time of protest and not touched by the racer until after the dyno run. That is my idea of enforcement....at the track, randomly. Chuck

 

+1.

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ianacole
Now, consider this: cars can be weighed at the track.

Yes, and every GTS Regional Director (GRD), working with the Chief of Tech, has the authority to require this as cars come off the track.

 

Cars must be loaded in the trailer, and moved to a dyno anywhere from 1hr to several hours from the track. Should the protest be on Saturday are you going to require the racer to do just that?

Absolutely, that's what the protest process is all about, as per the CCR. If a protest is filed in accordance with the rules, the car will be locked down and hauled off to the dyno, where ever that may be. I have spoken with a number of Regional Directors on this very topic, and all are willing to work with the GRD to ensure the process is followed as required.

 

And what if you throw paper on Saturday evening and the racer gets called home on Sunday?

I'm not sure I understand this question, but if the gist of this is what happens if the competitor being protested finds some excuse to not comply with the requirements of proving the legality of his car?, then the decision is up to the GRD as to what course of action to take, but I would strongly recommend forfeiture of finishing positions for the weekend. However, I would need to understand more about the situation and circumstances to be firm in that position.

 

I think what we are all saying is that the rules are fine (except, IMHO, the hp/tq rule) what we need is at track enforcement.

I certainly don't disagree, and encourage all competitors to discuss what they would like to see in terms of at track rule enforcement with their GRD. Any and all competitors are free to address any issues with me as well, but be forewarned, I will ask if you've had the conversation with your GRD first, and when discussing the issue with the GRD, I will be direct and open about the situation and who brought it to my attention. I can always be reached through PM here, email to [email protected], and on my cell at 720.270.2147.

 

There are too many things that can be manipulated by the racer prior to the dyno run. There also needs to be strict instructions that the car be impounded at the time of protest and not touched by the racer until after the dyno run. That is my idea of enforcement....at the track, randomly. Chuck

Keeping the car in impound upon protest is included as part of the protest process. The pertinent sections of the CCR:

 

The top four (4) finishing drivers and cars in each class must proceed to impound immediately after the race. Additionally, any vehicles that lost any body panel(s), had body contact, and/or lost any parts (i.e. muffler) on track must report to impound. Failing to do so may result in penalties imposed on the driver. If in doubt about finishing positions the vehicle and driver shall report to impound. It is the driver’s responsibility to report to impound with the vehicle and the vehicle’s logbook at the proper time. If it is necessary to stop in the pitlane after the checkered flag, no adjustments to the vehicle are allowed. Taking tire temperatures is permitted.
Any competition vehicle that has been impounded may be required to remain in impound for the necessary time to allow inspection. The competitor may not be allowed to compete in other races until the impound procedures are finished. [For GTS, this can mean until the dyno is performed, or any protest satisfied, what ever course of action that may entail] On occasion, if possible, the protested item may be sealed and the competitor allowed to compete. The car would then be inspected after the race. If the seal is missing or broken, the competitor will be subject to penalties for non-compliance.
Any entered driver may lodge a protest against another driver disputing the mechanical

compliance of their competition vehicle. To lodge a protest, the protestor shall obtain a “Protest Form” from Registration, fill it out, and file it, along with the appropriate fee, with the Race Director. The Race Director may accept the protest, may extend the time allowed, or may reject the protest. For the protest to be valid, it must meet the following conditions:

1. Be filed within thirty (30) minutes of the completion of the race.

2. Each part that is being protested must be named specifically.

3. Each part may be considered a separate protest, in terms of fees.

4. Each part listed shall be accompanied by the rule(s) number that it violates.

5. The title of the rulebook must be cited with each rule number.

6. Accepted by the Race Director.

The Race Director reserves the right to modify these rules as cited in CCR section #21.1

 

This is the challenge that we are facing, as just impounding the car (per the CCR) certainly doesn't guarantee that the car's performance hasn't already been manipulated. I'll use my car and my old software as an example: I could drop 20 HP and 20 FT/LBS of torque with a flip of my cruise control switch. No "extra" unlabeled switch in my car for a scrutineer to question, and I could make this adjustment during my cool-down lap, and pull off the track prepared to read lower numbers at the dyno even if I pulled straight into impound and a subsequent protest. I'm sure some enterprising folks intent on cheating would be able to come up with some sort of ECU subroutine where you put the left turn signal on, tap the brake pedal twice, cross your eyes and hit the window washer switch it would alter the engine's output. There are some folks out there that will go to any lengths to "gain an advantage."

 

That said, the most effective way of policing this class is with on-board telemetry that will be able to calculate peak HP and TQ. There are options out there that we are investigating, but are far from a solution. But even in this, in many cases the calculation for TQ would require competitors to divulge their gear ratios, and there's no way to verify the truth in that without a complete tear down, which just isn't practical.

 

This is a challenge, and I would be open to any suggestions on policing compliance. As always, if there are specific issues, questions, or thoughts that you would like to address with me individually, please do not hesitate to contact me by any means listed earlier.

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cstreit911
I have a rule to suggest. It's both easy and enforceable:

 

Any car newer than 1986 runs with a 3 second per lap penalty

 

>1988 and I'll sign the petition

 

You guys and your shiney new cars. Make it 1970.

 

 

WRT to the original topic. If you want to know a guys dyno numbers, just look at his windshield sticker.

 

Chris Streit, 250BHP, 225TQ.

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Eric W.
I have a rule to suggest. It's both easy and enforceable:

 

Any car newer than 1986 runs with a 3 second per lap penalty

 

>1988 and I'll sign the petition

 

You guys and your shiney new cars. Make it 1970.

 

 

WRT to the original topic. If you want to know a guys dyno numbers, just look at his windshield sticker.

 

Chris Streit, 250BHP, 225TQ.

 

Chris, that only is in the Midwest or OH...

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RacerZ

I think it is a good idea. I was trying to get the Time Trial classification forms posted on the web site. Seems like the right thing to do for any competition.

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Trackrocket

Bring it!! ...let's post 'em on a site. I'm all for it. +1.

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Sterling Doc
..... in many cases the calculation for TQ would require competitors to divulge their gear ratios, and there's no way to verify the truth in that without a complete tear down, which just isn't practical.

 

This is a challenge, and I would be open to any suggestions on policing compliance ...

 

Can't this be figured out on a dyno?

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FlyingDog

The question I have if you're posting this info for public consumption... is this minimum weight given the HP/TQ or is it actual weight at some point or is it a number the driver wants to declare?

 

WRT to the original topic. If you want to know a guys dyno numbers, just look at his windshield sticker.

 

Chris Streit, 250BHP, 225TQ.

I suggested that before. In MA, when the dyno cert is given to the CMC (assistant)Regional Director, the (assistant)RD gives the driver a sticker with HP, TQ, and spec weight. For GTS, that should be the minimum weight for the given dyno HP/TQ. That makes it easy for the Tech staff to say yay or nay as each car rolls over the scales.

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Eric W.
The question I have if you're posting this info for public consumption... is this minimum weight given the HP/TQ or is it actual weight at some point or is it a number the driver wants to declare?

 

WRT to the original topic. If you want to know a guys dyno numbers, just look at his windshield sticker.

 

Chris Streit, 250BHP, 225TQ.

I suggested that before. In MA, when the dyno cert is given to the CMC (assistant)Regional Director, the (assistant)RD gives the driver a sticker with HP, TQ, and spec weight. For GTS, that should be the minimum weight for the given dyno HP/TQ. That makes it easy for the Tech staff to say yay or nay as each car rolls over the scales.

 

I wanna do something similar. I could prolly just ask the Great Lakes region guys for the file that has the format and print the labels.

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JSG1901
..... in many cases the calculation for TQ would require competitors to divulge their gear ratios, and there's no way to verify the truth in that without a complete tear down, which just isn't practical.

Ian, if you have on-board telemetry that knows how fast you are going (in mph) and how fast your engine is going (in rpm), you don't need anybody to tell you the gear ratios. Those ratios are just math from there, which is how dynos work.

 

I wanna do something similar. I could prolly just ask the Great Lakes region guys for the file that has the format and print the labels.

Ask Dave Royce or Bryan Cohn. They have this worked out pretty well.

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Lemming

Ian, any movement on this? The board seems to be in agreement that this is a good idea.

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ianacole
Ian, any movement on this? The board seems to be in agreement that this is a good idea.

 

In terms of which, the publicity of HP/TQ numbers, or the on-board telemetry?

 

I've put the feelers out for the website development to add a page for HP/TQ numbers, but have yet to receive a response. I can just post the numbers on the existing page, but I've been asking for a complete revamp of the site to allow for more regional grouping of information which would include access for the GRDs to post event reports (or a designated individual) and other regionally pertinent information.

 

In terms of on-board telemetry, we're at a bit of a standstill awaiting a response from the company that we initiated the inquiry with...

 

So, moving at glacial speed

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Eric W.

 

I wanna do something similar. I could prolly just ask the Great Lakes region guys for the file that has the format and print the labels.

Ask Dave Royce or Bryan Cohn. They have this worked out pretty well.

 

Can ya PM me their contact info? Im on my phone right now and its a beatch to goto websites to look

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RSCoupe

 

I wanna do something similar. I could prolly just ask the Great Lakes region guys for the file that has the format and print the labels.

Ask Dave Royce or Bryan Cohn. They have this worked out pretty well.

 

Can ya PM me their contact info? Im on my phone right now and its a beatch to goto websites to look

 

[email protected]

[email protected]

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Tom A
In terms of on-board telemetry, we're at a bit of a standstill awaiting a response from the company that we initiated the inquiry with...
Ian, have you talked to Jerry? I am pretty sure they are already using something for this purpose for USTCC.

 

Come to think of it, didn't they use one on you for the 25?

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Damon in STL

I'm fully behind making hp and tq numbers public. My car currently puts out 166.1 hp and the same tq.

 

But, I've now been kicking around an idea about doing an engine swap and adding a turbo. One thought is to keep the hp and tq low and stay in GTS2 for reliability reasons. But, what if there are no cars in GTS2 on a particular weekend....but there are GTS3 cars? Different waste gate springs could be swapped and a different tune could be programmed to move up to GTS3. This same logic comes into play with racing in BMW CR.....the car would be able to cross over and run in DM....maybe even competitively.

 

The last thing I want to get involved with is a "Turbo-gate" situation where people are thinking you are not playing fair. How could this example be enforced? I'd prefer that to be defined before the car ever got on track.

 

Damon in STL

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