nape Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 I don't know the AI rules that well. But how is dropping in a LS motor into a mustang "cubic dollars expensive"??? A friend of mine dropped one into a 240sx, and spent less money then most people spend who drop K20a motors into hondas. (its a $5,000 motor.. used...) Other then the stigma of the whole cross breed deal, it's the fact that Pat's car is built to the hilt. Everything on it is custom/aftermarket, which is allowed by the rules, but seen as an unfair advantage by people who can't afford to build to that level. As is allowed by the rules, there's not much of a stock LS motor left. Example, his crankshaft cost more then my engine. It's a hard pill to swallow, because this is "club racing" but there's no disclaimer on the membership form that says, "You can only join this club if you make $xx,xxx/year." So, if you can't spend cubic dollars, you have to spend cubic time and/or cubic effort to try to be at the same level. The great thing about racing is that money can't buy luck, and it's better to be lucky then good most of the time. PS- Give Raybob another shot, the man just bleeds Chevy Blue, so you can't blame him for hating seeing a GM product in a Friggen Ol' Rebuild Dodge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firehawkclone Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 How many of the devil-spawn Mustachevs are out there? Bob There is 2. Hal Massey's ls6 powered Griggs prep sn95 out of NorCal. Hal lives in CO i think. I don't mind the ls powered cars, i've beat both of them at onetime or another with the old lt1 motor. Those cars are fast becuase they have good drivers and crew cheifs, and they have alot of time to work on the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Watson Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 As for the chevy in a ford there is a Mustang here in the NE region that has a chevy efi motor in it, not sure which model but he races every once in a while. Its fast. I see no issue. AI is built around allowing racers to run any engine parts combo so long as they make the wght/pwr ratio, so who cares which make it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 John is correct, Hal's car is also an eclectic muse of "Made in America". Although his motor is a full liter larger than mine and can make a good 100 ponies more (I have no idea how they've managed to choke that thing and make it live, bravo!). It's too bad the stars weren't able to align and that car didn't make it to Utah with Guy Cunningham; would have been right up there. Beautiful SN95. Really, what happened was we put the LS motor in there to run interference on all the other crap I keed I keed... cha cha cha, Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raybob9289 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Wow Raybob, I guess if you're dumb enough to believe there's a competitive advantage to putting a chevy in a mustang then I guess you can also be ignorant enough to make it run in "X". If I'm an outsider looking at the series, this kind of attitude would keep me out, not the frankenstein mustang. AI has enough problems with a rules package that is nearly impossible to enforce, now we have to contend with vigilante series directors. My guess is I could bring my frankenstang to RMR, tell you it's a 4.6L with a crank trigger and you wouldn't know the difference anyways. Mr. Lindsey, I'm not Dumb or Ignorant. I do know that the LS motor is about 60 Lbs lighter than the Original Small Block Chevy. Since you seem like a smart guy you would probably ditch the Mod motor and run some sort of old school 302 or 351 FoMoCo. The 302 with an Iron block probably weighs +/- that of a 350 Chevy. So if you went with an LS motor you'd take 60+ pounds off the front of the Mustang, making it some what of a Competitive advantage. Me thinks..... I guess when you bring your Mustang to Colorado me and you can carry on this conversation. Dave Algozine hit the point dead nuts. This is just an intent issue to me. It's not the end of the world, but it just seems unecessary, and most believe is blurrs the battle of the muscle cars from the past slugging it out, which is one of the intents of the seriies. Todd, I will take my medicine. I not gonna be a Roeg Director. Hell, maybe I won't get re-elected, and all of the other AI racers in other Regions who don't race here will be happy since the last thing AI needs is my leadership.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Well, I guess if you think taking 60lbs. out of the engine is a good thing... are you sure it's 60? I'm going to let you in on a little known secret: if you take a bunch of weight off the nose of any configuration of car (Assuming it uses the front wheels to turn), you can create a whole mess of handling problems. Corvettes, for example, often run ballast to put weight on the front axle. And if you take a bunch of weight from the bottom of the car... well, I'm sure you may have heard of the term "roll center" in one of those shadetree mechanics books. Anyways, if we really wanted to get weight off the car we would have ditched the lexan and steel decklid. What we did do, however, is hack off the core support and build a one-piece front end. Now I'd rather take 30lbs off the nose, forward of the front axle, than lose 60 behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slammed_93_hatch Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Other then the stigma of the whole cross breed deal, it's the fact that Pat's car is built to the hilt. Everything on it is custom/aftermarket, which is allowed by the rules, but seen as an unfair advantage by people who can't afford to build to that level. As is allowed by the rules, there's not much of a stock LS motor left. Example, his crankshaft cost more then my engine. It's a hard pill to swallow, because this is "club racing" but there's no disclaimer on the membership form that says, "You can only join this club if you make $xx,xxx/year." So, if you can't spend cubic dollars, you have to spend cubic time and/or cubic effort to try to be at the same level. The great thing about racing is that money can't buy luck, and it's better to be lucky then good most of the time. People who want to spend money will always spend it. Trying to create rules to limit spending, historically, ends up doing nothing but allowing more creative ways for people to spend money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermac Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Pat, I don't know you or your car. I do know Raybob and he is one of the hardest working, give you the shirt off his back guys I have ever met! He built his new car for less than 5k and in most regions against most cars it is 100% competitive! Hell I would venture to guess that "if" your car was 100% legal (which from what I have heard about "your" specially tuned after a certain point make more power computer, that was retuned and taken out of your possesion and afterwards you weren't nearly as fast so I would doubt that it is!) it would come down driver, as it should! Pat I believe in my heart that you cheat! After the 2007 nationals you were, as I recall involved in some form of alleged cheating as well. Your arrogance and above the law attitude, in my opinion is the real problem here not your engine swap! Nobody (in a legal car) put's 4 seconds on the field! Mike Patterson whom I believe is the best club racer I have seen could barely muster a half a second against Tommy at Hallet, a track that he owns and Tommy admittedly stuggles at. And what about those notched frame rails? Also please refrain from insulting those of us that cannot afford our own engineers and have to resort to reading "shade tree mechanics" books. You might have to defend your self in person for those remarks someday, and there are a helluva lot more of "us" than you! Cody Powell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micks 41 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 What a let down!!! I was so looking forward to the entertaining threads that would have come up like in years past! Every party needs a pooper I guess. Hey, we can still have the entertaining threads, my point was that rules aren't decided by the amount of people we can pee-piddily-diddily off or the # of pages of rants, that's all. Let's be civilized, that's all. I see nothing has changed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhiteh3 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Wow, it's really too bad we can't have a simple discussion anymore. Here are my thoughts... I don't think cross-breeds should be allowed. Although there is some competitive advantage to picking and chosing a powertrain/chassis combination, the main reason I'm against it is I don't think they're necessary, and they go against where we came from, and what we're trying to be. I think all currently registered cars should be grandfathered for at least some significant period (5 years?) if not indefinitely. There is absolutely an advantage to removing 60# from the nose of an AI-style Mustang. Arguing otherwise seems like nothing but a curve ball, or just a misunderstanding of the rules of physics. Being able to lower CG, improve F/R weight distribution, and reduce polar moment are all very significant improvements in the car. A huge part of my job is to find improvements to these things that are on the scale of 1/1000th of the 60# change we're talking about. I concur that unless there is some serious reason to do so, regional rules should mirror national rules. Only a near-unanimous vote by the racers of that region, or some absolute necessity should overule that. I'll put my firesuit on now, because I'm sure someone is going to call me dumb in whatever their chosen words are. -Scott Whitehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat L. Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Cody, You're entitled to your opinion as is everyone. I'll be the first to tell you that we build our cars to the very edge of the rules, but not over. I've been blessed to have extremely talented people involved with all my racing efforts and it shows in the results throughout my driving career. Even now, with Horton Autosport, we are able to field a privateer touring car and compete head to head with factory efforts. A lot of folks who we compete against have accused us of cheating over the years and by now I'm numb to it. And just because we ran a car that was out of compliance once, everyone believes their assumtions were true. If you and all the others that were too busy crying cheat decided to put your heads down and figure out what we figured out... you'd be right with us in the time sheets. I appologize if that comes off as arrogant, but believe me when I tell you that you'll get a lot quicker if you put that advice into practice. The majority of club guys have a hard time understanding just how much is left in their cars and their driving. As for my times slowing down at Nationals this year... we still paced the field by a nice margin on a hurt motor carrying roughly 100lbs more ballast than we had to. Off the top of my head I believe our race pace with full fuel was still just shy of two seconds off our fastest qualy lap - on a 2:00 pluss track that ain't bad. If that's "cheating" then maybe I should toss the driving suit and play golf again. Scott, You're absolutely correct and smart and beautiful, etc... There is a law of diminishing returns though and we found it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacovini Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 Ooook, guys. Again, let's keep things civil. Pat, thanks for your calm response. Cody...luv ya' man, but no need for the sucker punch from across the room. RayBob's the man, and no need for him to go anywhere as his heart is in this game and has helped grow AI in the Rocky Mountains a great deal. Everyone has to play by the rules and series directors aren't exempt. I don't want to lock every thread here...so let's get back on task. Only 10 days to submit your RCR's. I'm working this weekend on consolidating all requests to date and putting them in a table form for your leadership team to review & comment on next week. Get your requests in now to be included in this initial round of reviews! -=- Todd Covini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermac Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Todd he call's my buddy dumb and ignorant and then you thank him for a calm response! Nothing I said is untrue. What about the frame rails? I wasn't there and if it's not true than so be it, however if it is that is stepping over the line! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepoe Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Popping some more popcorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron B Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Ok Todd, 9.0 lbs per hp 8.5 lbs per tq - that is my final offer!- c'mon throw me a bone here! .5lb on both... - that way I can run in AI Aaron Bambach #20 AI wannabe/AIX? SN95 Mustang...with a Ford 5.0 engine Great Lakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Roco Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Todd he call's my buddy dumb and ignorant and then you thank him for a calm response! Nothing I said is untrue. What about the frame rails? I wasn't there and if it's not true than so be it, however if it is that is stepping over the line! Your friend was asking for it, LOL. I have no dog in this fight, I'm just sayinnn.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horsewidower Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 roflmao!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeP-99Z Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 That's a scary pic Ernesto lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_tone Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) Frame Notching - I have always been shocked that notching, or removing most of the upper frame rail on the front of the fox body/SN95 mustang has been given the thumbs up and been made legal considering the stink that was made over two tiny notches in the rear of a certain blue SN95 mustang...... Edited October 17, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermac Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Todd he call's my buddy dumb and ignorant and then you thank him for a calm response! Nothing I said is untrue. What about the frame rails? I wasn't there and if it's not true than so be it, however if it is that is stepping over the line! Your friend was asking for it, LOL. I have no dog in this fight, I'm just sayinnn.. Im just sayinn... that if I had stunk it up as bad as you on national television I would probably keep my mouth shut! I don't have any cheeky pics to go with mine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Once again I see tempers have flarred. So, I have just one question for our new series director. Is this legal in AI " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I can't wait for a panel review. I need to know right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstngrcr Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I am currently converting my mustang to run in AIX and would like to abolish forced induction altogether or at least a weight penalty. I believe forced induction will draw an even wider gap between the haves and have-nots. I know it says extreme in the title but I dont think it should stand for Xtremely large checkbook. From the outside looking in it doesnt seem like a very attractive class to run in as far as equal competition goes. I know Im gonna hear the usual "if you dont like it go run CMC or AI" but a large class with cars that are faster than AI but not as expensive as a LMP1 sounds like a blast. Every division of motorsports makes rules to keep competition close, I think we should do the same. This isnt a run what you brung class, thats called SU. Just something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardP Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Once again I see tempers have flarred. So, I have just one question for our new series director. Is this legal in AI " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I can't wait for a panel review. I need to know right away. No restrictions against it unless it would require firewall mods to install or is driver adjustable... Richard P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nape Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Frame Notching - I have always been shocked that notching, or removing most of the upper frame rail on the front of the fox body/SN95 mustang has been given the thumbs up and been made legal considering the stink that was made over two tiny notches in the rear of a certain blue SN95 mustang...... What are you calling the upper frame rail, the structure that you bolt fenders to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Tornado Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Just to let folks know I submitted two rule requests changes: 1) Engine change to allow all oem or oem equivalent so we have increased flexibility and options when making engine choices or rebuilding. I think ford motorsport, etc.. make awesome products and would allow us even more cheaper options (my rebuilds cost $10k a pop). Besides power to weight makes this a total non issue. 2) ABS brakes OEM or OEM equivalent. I know this was covered in another post. I personally won't be updating if this rule changes but welcome and would love mustang challenge car participation with only a tire change. These cars are getting cheap and I think will be a huge wave of cars entering our series if we make it easier. Full transparency as I feel all other rules are working very very well and this just gets more folks playing and more options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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