Carb vs. Fuel Injection

[ST#97]

Here's a prediction...we'll have more CMC cars at the crossovers then AI

 

God I've heard this for the last few years over and over from many different people you just wait. yup always the same. just a couple cars. few years back I was told like 6 guys are building cars for cmc yup car count never changed fact they went down

 

I liked cmc when we had the group of 6 or 7 but no more , which sucks.

 

Sidney you get cmc car counts up and I'll bring two cars back again.

 

I had a carb on a ai car about 5 years ago. I'll never do that again. Scott Hoag almost had to put me and the car out from a carb fire.

 

Steve, you can't throw a dead cat in Texas without hitting 20+ CMC/2 cars right now. There are also 4 or 5 in the wings looking to complete cars and get licenses. There are 2 or 3 in AI as well and hope to see 8 AI cars on grid each weekend soon. the economy and a lot of other factors are keeping our counts down too....but Hallett crossover will see 40+ car field this year for sure for AI/CMC/AIX.

[roadracerwhite]

Here's a prediction...we'll have more CMC cars at the crossovers then AI

 

God I've heard this for the last few years over and over from many different people you just wait. yup always the same. just a couple cars. few years back I was told like 6 guys are building cars for cmc yup car count never changed fact they went down

 

I liked cmc when we had the group of 6 or 7 but no more , which sucks.

 

Sidney you get cmc car counts up and I'll bring two cars back again.

 

I had a carb on a ai car about 5 years ago. I'll never do that again. Scott Hoag almost had to put me and the car out from a carb fire.

 

There are at least 14 CMC cars out there, built, being built, and progressing through HPDE. I try to keep track of everyone and communicate with them and work with them to make sure their car is legal. Every event we go to I recruite and try to talk to all of the HPDE mustang, camaro, and firebird drivers.

 

I can't force the people that are out there to come to the track. I also can't force people to finish there cars, life sometimes gets in the way and there isn't much anyone can do about it.

 

If everyone had your attitude, none of us would have any one to race against, we would all be sitting at home waiting for the first guy to show up, somebody has to be the first one to run in the class.

 

I also can't control the tires we run or the economy, and both have affected the car count this year.

 

We even built another car to sell to someone in the region. It has some bugs that we are working out and when it is done it will be advertised for sale. At Putnam next year there will be 6+ CMC cars there.

 

 

Bryan White

 

MW/GL CMC Director

[bluebandit48]

okay so my little question of who is running a carb and who is running FI announced my switch to AI i guess all of this is kind of on topic.

 

CMC is a great class.. no doubt..

 

AI is a great class.. no doubt..

 

each one has their pros and cons..

 

i wanted to start out in CMC and then move to AI because i like the big HP numbers and the countless dollars spent on suspension..

 

i think what people in the MW/GL region see CMC as is a steping stone to AI.

 

there will be 6 cmc cars at putnam but how many AI cars?

 

anyways.. i think im going to run a carb

[King Matt]

[

God I've heard this for the last few years over and over from many different people you just wait. yup always the same. just a couple cars. few years back I was told like 6 guys are building cars for cmc yup car count never changed fact they went down

 

I liked cmc when we had the group of 6 or 7 but no more , which sucks.

 

Sidney you get cmc car counts up and I'll bring two cars back again.

 

A big part of the reason the car count went down was thanks to you pulling your orange car out of the class to go run mid-pack in AI and selling your rental. You could have helped grow the class in our region, but instead you bailed out. Anyone who's been paying attention would notice that AI counts have been pretty stagnant in the Midwest/GL regions over the past couple of seasons too. It's maintained a higher count than CMC, but hasn't really grown.

[King Matt]

 

i think what people in the MW/GL region see CMC as is a steping stone to AI.

 

There is some truth to that, which is why a proposal was floated in MW/GL in 2008 to merge CMC into AI so everyone who wanted to race a pony car could run under the same banner and be a part of a bigger "American Iron" class. I think it would have worked very well, but larger national political issues scuttled it. Ironically, the person most opposed to it, who accused me of being a traitor to the class, later tried to take a breakaway group of CMC racers to a competing sanctioning body. It's like our own little soap opera!

[Aaron B]

UMM, I still say Carb it, and you have the perfect one already no expense on that one

[bluebandit48]

hey Aaron, we are in the same boat! we both have cars that shouldnt be in the classes they are in!!!

 

you need 200 more horse and a lot more tubes in your chassie

 

i need all new suspension!

 

haha maybe ill just run AIX and throw that curve ball in!

[stevepoe]

spend the money and Put a Fuel injection system in it. You will be glad you did.

Ford lowered the price on the injection computer harness. I've seen them selling on ebay for like $150 , a9l,p's sell for under $75 on ebay as well. fuel rails and lines can be sourced for next to nothing . pumps can be had for under $125 dollars, air boxes and 02 sensors and easy find. injectors$125, air meters $75, tb's used under $100 and I've seen explore intakes sell for $100 and most others selling for couple hundred dollars.

 

Hell I have a box of fuel rails and regulators if you need anything.

[roadracerwhite]

okay so my little question of who is running a carb and who is running FI announced my switch to AI i guess all of this is kind of on topic.

 

CMC is a great class.. no doubt..

 

AI is a great class.. no doubt..

 

each one has their pros and cons..

 

i wanted to start out in CMC and then move to AI because i like the big HP numbers and the countless dollars spent on suspension..

 

i think what people in the MW/GL region see CMC as is a steping stone to AI.

 

there will be 6 cmc cars at putnam but how many AI cars?

 

anyways.. i think im going to run a carb

 

Sorry Rob,

I don't mean to hijack your thread. There will probably be about the same number of cars in AI, about 6.

 

Run a carb for AI, it is the way to go, your not going to beat the price.

 

CMC is sort of a stepping stone for those that want to enter AI. However most of us that are in the CMC here have already chased AI and found out we like close racing more than we like changing and chasing the car every weekend. Sidney and Matt are just trying to save you from being a mid pack AI car.

 

Bryan

[Burnett]

Someone sell bluebandit an AI car cheap so I can buy MY CMC car back! I talked my neighbor into buying a CMC car so bluebandit would have someone to race and now he wants to go AI……………………kids!!!

 

Robin

[ST#97]

Someone sell bluebandit an AI car cheap so I can buy MY CMC car back! I talked my neighbor into buying a CMC car so bluebandit would have someone to race and now he wants to go AI……………………kids!!!

 

Robin

 

Mine is for sale....don't know about the cheap part though.

 

In all honesty, he should go buy Algozine's car. that is a BARGAIN!!! And it's a carb too!!!

[5.0stang]

PLEASE READ

 

 

Due to the fact that you are dealing with a typical ford pushrod motor, naturally problems are going to arrise as they are exposed to the repeated track stresses. In December while i was driving at Road Atlanta, the valve keepers of one of the valves on my AI mustang failed causing the valve to drop and strike the piston. Not that this issue has any true correlation between a carb or a fi system, but because of this incident i was forced to rebuild the top end of the 302.

 

I myself am a 17 year old kid who has only a few years of experience, none of which i have had any sort of training, yet i was able to disassemble the motor down to the pistons in about 2 1/2 hours. The ONLY reason i was able to do so in a relatively short period of time was due to the SIMPLICITY OF THE CARBURETOR and the lack of extensive intake that all fuel injected systems have. In years past, i have had to assemble and reassemble the top end of my trickflow based fuel injected pushrod 302 out of another track car i previously owned, and i unfortunately had to spend roughly the same span of that 2 1/2 hours to just remove or reinstall the excessive pluming (egr and what not) before even breaking a seal of the motor.

 

If you are planning to race or even track a car, especially a mustang, you are going to eventually face obstructions and motor issues that must be addressed. If you are in the prospect of spending as little time, money, and effort towards your motor possible, yet retaining all of the performance, a CARBURETOR IS THE MOST RATIONAL ROUTE attainable and should be widely considered.

 

Why does NASCAR continue to use carb motors? Because time and time again they are proven to work reliably. When operating a high tolerance motor, you need all the adavantages in reliability possible. A carbureted motor is not going to face near the stuggles that very well may be posed by fuel injection systems, and does not require an engineering degree to run diagnostics. For this reason, I BEING A CHILD, can build these motors single handedly.

 

I hope that this might sway your opinion towards installing a carburetor, because lets face it, we are all in the sport due to the fact we all are passionate about this and want to spend as much time in the left seat as possible. What better way to do so then by eliminating complexities and capitalizing on simplicity.

 

Carburetors work well.

 

Thanks for consideration,

Jared

[swhiteh3]

Why does NASCAR continue to use carb motors? Because time and time again they are proven to work reliably.

Ummm.... No. Quite simply.... Completely incorrect. And I might know just a LITTLE bit about the NASCAR rulebook.

[Trevor57]

Enlighten us.

[5.0stang]

Alright swhiteh3,

If you were knowledgeable of the NASCAR rulebook, you would clearly be aware of section 20 - 5.10 found in the NASCAR Sprint Cup Rule Book. The section states that the CHOICES ARE LIMITED TO ONE. It is mandated that the Holley 4150 series four-barrel carburetor is the only form of induction allowed in the series. And when pertaining to the reliability aspect of the carburetor, the four-barreled Holley has been put through rigors throughout this sactioned body for years and has successfully been an intricate component of the high compression, 800+ horsepower motors used by all teams.

 

If yet you still deny this claim then simply follow this link: http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/nascar/icons/news/story?id=3473499" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[IGZOSTD]

Carful 5.0

[King Matt]

NASCAR uses carbs because the rulebook says they have to. The rule book says that because NASCAR does not want to deal with the mess it perceives would result from a change to EFI, both from the engine redevelopment cost and tech inspection perspective. That, and they don't think the popularity of the "show" with fans is much affected by the technology under the hood. Yeah, carbed engines are a little simpler in some respects, but it's still air, fuel and spark.

 

Here's a tip, since you're a new kid: try to make your posts look and read less like Nigerian scam email.

[b_tone]

I, for one, can vouch that Scott Whitehead has no knowledge of things pertaining to or involved in NASCAR. He actually manages a Holiday Inn Express and stays there every night, and that is where he garners his massive so-called insight and information about NASCAR!!!

 

Take that Mr. Whitehead!

[D Algozine]

I for one can vouch that Scott Whitehead has no knowledge about things pertaining to or involved in NASCAR. He actually manages a Holiday Inn Express and stays there every night, and that is where he garners his massive so-called insight and information about NASCAR!!!

 

Take that Mr. Whitehead!

 

Very funny, good stuff !

[Holster Maker]

Carbs in NASCAR is because efi opens the door for more cheating, simple as that!

[swhiteh3]

Alright swhiteh3,

If you were knowledgeable of the NASCAR rulebook...

So, do own a NASCAR Sprint Cup rulebook? I do. I have a 2010 rulebook, sitting right next to my 2009, 2008, and 2007 rulebooks. I'm guessing you don't own one, because unless you work for a NASCAR Sprint Cup team, and have a valid NASCAR license, you can't get one.

 

Quoting a section of the rulebook directly from the ESPN.com article seems to me like presenting yourself as an English professor simply because you can quote the dictionary. Quoting a book, even if you had a copy, does not mean you understand it's history, it's context, or all the other information in the tome.

 

As Matt said, the teams run the Holley carb you mentioned because they have to. There is nothing else to discuss here.

 

But NASCAR has the option of what they require. And there are many reasons for this. Most sigificant is NASCAR's interest in close competition, and therefore it's need to have a tight and enforceable rulebook. A carb is very easy to measure and police.

 

You see, electronics are the bane of any sanctioning bodies' enforcement group. It's incredibly simple for any electronics engineer to hide a traction control "brain" just about anywhere. To prevent this, NASCAR has gone to some extreme lengths (which I'm sure you understand since you understand the rulebook so well). MSD boxes, for instance, need to be filled with a clear potting compound and have a clear bottom panel on them so they can be inspected (because competitors far before my time, and more clever than me proved it was easy to hide a functioning traction control system inside an MSD box). Heck, even the significant wiring harnesses in the car need to be wrapped in CLEAR shrink wrap, so that each wire can be traced.

 

By disallowing the sensors and actuators, you prevent a large portion of the electronics tinkering. If I were to install a wheelspeed sensor onto a Cup car that went through inspection, even if it was not connected to anything, I'd likely get a hefty fine and a good long vacation, along with my Crew Chief. Why? Because NASCAR is smart enough to know they can't possibly understand every way you can hide traction control, so by disallowing many components (like wheelspeed sensors, auxiliary tachometers, brake pressure solenoids, etc) they prevent much of the tinkering. Simply put, electronic components are not allowed unless they are SPECIFICALLY allowed.

 

What's really odd to me is that if you read the ESPN.com article you quoted, you'd understand that there is a lot more to it than just reliability. The article does a pretty good job of summing things up.

 

With all this said, I'm sure you know that there are several teams working with NASCAR, running Sprint Cup cars with prototype EFI systems on them in tests all the time. Why would NASCAR dabble in EFI when there is so much incentive not to? Because the drive to stay relevant and appear environmentally friendly is starting to overcome the advantages of the carb. But trust me, NASCAR is going to be very careful about how they implement this system, probably assigning us sealed processors, and having numerous other requirements to help them police things.

 

I have to go now, a customer in my Best Western hotel forgot their toothbrush, and I need to run one up to them. (I would have said Holiday Inn Express in a nod to BPT, but we're partially sponsored by Best Western Hotels).

Edited January 17, 2010 by Guest

[Holster Maker]

Kool write-up Scott!

I heard a little about this pressure for efi. How soon you think for the big all-out swap....several yrs?

[swhiteh3]

Kool write-up Scott!

I heard a little about this pressure for efi. How soon you think for the big all-out swap....several yrs?

Yeah, if I was to guess, I'd say 2012 or so. I'd be surprised if they had the "bugs" worked out by 2011, but who knows - they may prove me wrong. There are a lot of questions still be to be worked out, and they'll make completely sure they can police the system before they release it.

 

This year we're working on the spoiler change-over. Personally, I don't think it's going to improve things much, but I guess fans are scared of a wing profile, so we're changing back to spoilers. Back to the drawing board....