Audi 4KQ Build for GTS4: build update-cage done

[timmmy]

Hi All,

 

I would like to formally introduce myself and my project. My name is Haydn, but Timmmy will work fine too. I have been racing vehicles most of my life, starting in motocross, then forest rally, followed by a lot of superbike and more recently I took up road racing after realizing I dont bounce quote as well as I used to

 

I have been running a Miata in time trial for about 9 years, and have been instructing with various clubs for about 4 total (COMSCC, BMW, AUDI).

 

I have also been building special vehicles for a long time, for myself to race and for the film industry to break. My most recent project was suppose dot be a quick build as a TT instructor vehicle to replace the MIata. It turned into a bigger project and I recently decided that given the amount of work I have into it , it would be a shame not to actually race it.

 

The car is a 1986 Audi 4000 Quattro. It was converted in 1988 by 4 Star racing and the Sprongle Brothers into a rally car, and it then spent the next 10 years being beaten to death. I first saw the car in a very sad state about 8 years ago in the yard of Force 5 Auto in Concord NH, it subsequently began a rebuild by a friend of mine, who ran out of patience and $$, at which point I picked it up to do a quick build as a training vehicle.

 

Well that was last April, and since then it has seen a lot of hours in the shop. I am hoping to have it done by this April, or at least done enough to take it to the track to shake it down.

 

The thing is a major Frankenproject combining the original shell with a new floor, firewall and cage; along with the engine and trans from a 2005 Audi S4 V8.

 

I hope to be doing the NASA licencing school in April, however pressures at work and lack of funds may push that back a little.

 

At some point you will see it at some NE and MA events!

 

Here is the project photo gallery: http://picasaweb.google.com/haydn.taylor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (note there are 2 galleries due to 500 pic limit / galley)

 

Here is the thread on Motorgeek. http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29308&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

and here are a few snapshots for good measure.....

 

 

Im gonna have questions for you all!

Edited April 6, 2010 by Guest

[cosm3os]

Im gonna have questions for you all!

 

I got all your answers right here.

 

1. Only rule is power/wt

2. Ain't no way that's gonna be a GTS3 car!

 

Cool build. Good luck!

[timmmy]

HI Kyle,

 

Thanks for your feedback on the rules, I like this class! Nice job on your efforts recently by the way, I have been following the series for a few years now.

 

OK first of my series of questions, this one was prompted by some discussion on my Motorgeek thread. (Thanks guys for the heads up)

 

"you need to have a plate at each attachment point (see section 15.6.13 of the CCR)."

 

My cage has (in the process of getting) footer boxes at all attachment points, these are within the regs for material thickness, area etc, however the rear main hoop stays that connect to the rear strut towers do not have a plate as you can see below;

 

 

The strut tower is double wall 16gauge and would be a bit of a bitch to plate, so I didn't. Is this going to be an issue for tech? should I cut the tube, clean it up and try to squeeze a plate in there before i go any further? My mechanical engineering head says "doesnt need a plate, it is plenty strong enough" However 'rules is rules'.

 

Thoughts of any techs out there?

[cosm3os]

Isn't there any way to get that motor behind the front wheels?

[timmmy]

Isn't there any way to get that motor behind the front wheels?

 

Nope, at least not while retaining AWD....the joy of Quattro. Front driveshafts come out of the transmission about 10" back from the flywheel. I pushed the motor back 4" and down 3" already, this puts the front axles at about as much angle as they can take. The car will be a tad nose heavy as all Audi's are. Likely 57/63 ish.

[JSG1901]

The car will be a tad nose heavy as all Audi's are. Likely 57/63 ish.

Wow...that must be one of those funny weight distribution calculations you get when you start working with AWD. Who knew?

 

 

Welcome!

[timmmy]

The car will be a tad nose heavy as all Audi's are. Likely 57/63 ish.

Wow...that must be one of those funny weight distribution calculations you get when you start working with AWD. Who knew?

 

 

Welcome!

 

hahahah, thats what happens when you take too much flu medication (correction: 57F/43R)

 

And answering my own question about rear stays to strut tops requiring a plate, rules are clear and minimum size of 9" square....gonna be tough to get that, but I guess the grinder is coming out (again)

[Jimax]

Isn't there any way to get that motor behind the front wheels?

 

Nope, at least not while retaining AWD....the joy of Quattro. Front driveshafts come out of the transmission about 10" back from the flywheel. I pushed the motor back 4" and down 3" already, this puts the front axles at about as much angle as they can take. The car will be a tad nose heavy as all Audi's are. Likely 57/63 ish.

 

Yeah, but what Audi doesn't have that weight distribution? My Audi is 58/42 stock.

[timmmy]

Yeah, but what Audi doesn't have that weight distribution? My Audi is 58/42 stock.

 

Yeah, I am hoping to improve over stock quite a bit, however until I get things together and weighed I am going to assume the worst, and hope for better

[John Graber]

That thing looks great. I would assume by the looks of it it will fall into the "tube frame" category so you will need to run using the non-DOT wt/HP ratio.

[ianacole]

That thing looks great. I would assume by the looks of it it will fall into the "tube frame" category so you will need to run using the non-DOT wt/HP ratio.

 

Hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like the main cabin area is all there - A-pillar and back...

[timmmy]

That thing looks great. I would assume by the looks of it it will fall into the "tube frame" category so you will need to run using the non-DOT wt/HP ratio.

 

Thanks

 

I have to say I am still not seeing the tube frame thing. This is the new floor, it is basically an 18gauge skin with some box 1" box to keep everything straight, the tunnel is the same but 1/2" thin wall box.

 

 

I re-read the ccr and the GTS regs and I dont see a good definition of tube frame vs monocoque, can anyone point me in the right direction on that.

 

Front end tube work is just to encase motor and hang bodywork from. This could be removed but would not leave much crumple zone.

 

Front end:

 

before : Note engine mounts on chassis legs in same location as new ones.

 

Cut inner fenders forward of strut towers and trim forward chassis leg off at engine mount.

 

during

 

a bit more during, note engine mounts stradle existing chassis and new engine cage

 

Firewall:

 

Before: Lots of penetrations and odd shapes, I figured it would be easier to seal and stronger with a nice flat firewall.

 

Cut out: Viewed form inside, also note new trans tunnel top.

 

During: Framed up

 

After: Stock location, just beefed up a bit for intrusion protection and a pocket to let me move the rack back an inch. (Strange Audi steering setup)

[timmmy]

That thing looks great. I would assume by the looks of it it will fall into the "tube frame" category so you will need to run using the non-DOT wt/HP ratio.

 

Hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like the main cabin area is all there - A-pillar and back...

 

Yup its actually all there from about 6" forward of the front suspension towers.

 

Having said that the floor and tunnel are non factory sheetmetal, they are in the same place (Height of floor is unchanged), however they have been replaced, and the drive tunnel is wider at the bottom.

 

Re-reading the GTS regs it says

 

“Tube frame” is defined as any car that does not retain the manufacturer’s stock unit body or

chassis. Modification of suspension and drivetrain mounting points alone does not

constitute a tube frame.

 

So by the letter this would imply all stock sheet metal should be retained and any deviation would mean the car is tube frame, even if the replacement was sheetmetal in the same location?

 

If I were to go full tube frame then my definition would be that the body would simply be a drop on and would be non structural much like a Nascar. Whereas my floor, tunnel and firewall are non original but are located in the stock location and form part of a monocoque design.

 

Either way I am fine with the classification of the car as GTS4 or GTS5, GTSU would be a stretch though I think.

 

H

[RSCoupe]

It would not be considered tube frame car.

[RSCoupe]

...Either way I am fine with the classification of the car as GTS4 or GTS5...

 

Perfect, that's where I run. Really looking forward to it.

Now I'll have to bring my car to Mid Ohio if you go.

[claykos]

I'm not a tech inspector - but based on my understanding of the rules and in my experience, your rear downtube is not going to be legal without a plate between it and the shock tower. I would check with a Tech Inspector to confirm, but that's my opinion.

[timmmy]

I'm not a tech inspector - but based on my understanding of the rules and in my experience, your rear downtube is not going to be legal without a plate between it and the shock tower. I would check with a Tech Inspector to confirm, but that's my opinion.

 

Thanks, I agree completely.

 

I cut the tubes tonight and plated the towers so thats one issue off the list

[timmmy]

...Either way I am fine with the classification of the car as GTS4 or GTS5...

 

Perfect, that's where I run. Really looking forward to it.

Now I'll have to bring my car to Mid Ohio if you go.

 

I hope to see you there, all I have to do now is finish the car, get it through tech and logbooked, go to school and get my provisional licence......

[timmmy]

Hi All,

 

I got some initial weights on the car this weekend to help me finalize placement of components. I was hoping some of you guys could chime in here with your vehicle weights and balances (wet no driver) so I can get a frame of reference.

 

The bare shell with drivetrain and exhausts, but no doors etc as shown below came in at 2117lbs balance is nose heavy as expected 65F/35R

 

 

 

I then piled everything on about where it should be, including all stock glass, seals, steel panels etc and came up with 2611lbs, with a weight balance of 63F/37R

 

 

I suspect I can hit 2500lbs wet if I work very hard, more likely 2600+ if I dont. How does this stac up wiht other vehicles in class, particularly the BMW's as the E36 M3 seems to have a slightly higher factory curb weight than the audi (Audi = 2850lbs, BMW = 3100 approx)

[cosm3os]

E36s run GTS3 almost exclusively. Since most of them are IP cars, I think they are running 2975 lbs (with driver) and about 270 whp.

[timmmy]

E36s run GTS3 almost exclusively. Since most of them are IP cars, I think they are running 2975 lbs (with driver) and about 270 whp.

 

Thanks Kyle,

 

Good to know and about what I thought. I know there are some threads kicking about here discussing having open listings of GTS car weights and HP. I can see why people wouldn't want that, however I feel it would be good to have out there as a resource for people building or planning builds.

 

H

[cstreit911]

If you want to know someone's weight and HP, just look at the tech sticker on their windsheild.. Simple enough. It's not like it's a huge secret around the paddock...

[timmmy]

If you want to know someone's weight and HP, just look at the tech sticker on their windsheild.. Simple enough. It's not like it's a huge secret around the paddock...

 

Thanks Chris, I knew they were out there individually, however I was wondering if there was an online repository for general reference.

 

Cheers again

 

Haydn

[cstreit911]

Oh that's easy.

 

If you ask anyone, ANYONE in GTS about their car....

 

1. The car is overweight

2. The engine isn't making the power it should

3. We're running on tires with 30 heat cycles that came out of the spares bin.

4. ...and something isn't quite right in the setup.

[timmmy]

Oh that's easy.

 

If you ask anyone, ANYONE in GTS about their car....

 

1. The car is overweight

2. The engine isn't making the power it should

3. We're running on tires with 30 heat cycles that came out of the spares bin.

4. ...and something isn't quite right in the setup.

 

Hahahahaha Thats good