Same seat for instructor in HPDE?

[boxtwo]

I want to upgrade my stock seats but do not want to buy two of the same seat until I know I like the one I buy. If I replace the driver's seat with a fixed-back (Sparco Evo) with the STOCK restraints can the passenger seat remain STOCK during HPDE (group 2)?

 

I read through the applicable sections in the CCR and it is a little ambiguous,

 

"Passenger seats must meet the same requirements, per the CCR, as the driver seat, if used by passengers. Note- The passenger seat does not have to match the driver’s seat." (Section 11.4.12 p44)

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

Section 11.3 p41-2

Section 11.4.12 p44

 

Thanks in advance!

[kieranlavin]

MY opinion is that they're not equal which is what it means when it says same requirements. To ME, that's like saying that you'll be installing a 6-point harness on your side and leaving the stock belts on the passenger side and because they both restrain you, they're similar and therefore acceptable. But it's all up to the region and all up to the person doing tech and then ultimately up to the instructor. I personally wouldn't want to get into a car with a different setup for me vs. the driver

[boxtwo]

MY opinion is that they're not equal which is what it means when it says same requirements. To ME, that's like saying that you'll be installing a 6-point harness on your side and leaving the stock belts on the passenger side and because they both restrain you, they're similar and therefore acceptable. But it's all up to the region and all up to the person doing tech and then ultimately up to the instructor. I personally wouldn't want to get into a car with a different setup for me vs. the driver

 

I see a HUGE distinction between this type of seat v. stock and a harness v. stock belt. The seat is for driver comfort/control, the restraint system is still the same across both drivers. (Actually better in this case for the passenger since they will retain the side airbags.)

 

But again, this is why I posted the question.

[krystar]

yea but in case of an accident, you'll be securely safe in your 6pt's and the passenger will be flailing about on stock 3pt's.

 

most other club's CCR's have similar sections. generally accepted the passenger's restrain system should be no less than the driver's. if instructor chooses not to get into your car, yer really screwed w/o instruction hehe

[boxtwo]

yea but in case of an accident, you'll be securely safe in your 6pt's and the passenger will be flailing about on stock 3pt's.

 

most other club's CCR's have similar sections. generally accepted the passenger's restrain system should be no less than the driver's. if instructor chooses not to get into your car, yer really screwed w/o instruction hehe

 

The restraint system (seatbelts) will be the SAME for the DRIVER and PASSENGER.

 

I will NOT be using harnessses at this point, for EITHER occupant.

 

The ONLY variable is the SEAT itself (removal of stock driver's seat and repalcement with Sparco Evo seat.)

[krystar]

ah i see.

 

just remember when you do upgrade to harnesses, u need to go to 5pt's or higher on both sides, and add a rollbar.

[soundguydave]

Speaking as an instructor, if you have stock belts on BOTH sides, I would hop in without a second thought... It's the harnesses that really make me think twice, when there's a difference.

[boxtwo]

Speaking as an instructor, if you have stock belts on BOTH sides, I would hop in without a second thought... It's the harnesses that really make me think twice, when there's a difference.

 

Thanks for an instructor perspective. If I don't hear something from a NASA biggie in here I'll give the local a shout.

[Lucid Moments]

As long as both sides are running the stock belts I don't see the different seats being an issue.

[Bruce L.]

I'd be wary of running stock 3 points with a sparco evo seat - the sides of the seat will hold the lap belt away from your body and you'll submarine.

 

The CCR states that each of the seats has to meet the requirements of the CCR - it does not say they have to be the same.

Ditto for the belts - you can have a harness for the driver and stock 3 pts for the passenger.

With that said, an instructor can refuse to ride in such a car, but NASA will usually find someone to ride with you.

 

bruce

[soundguydave]

I'd be wary of running stock 3 points with a sparco evo seat - the sides of the seat will hold the lap belt away from your body and you'll submarine.

 

The CCR states that each of the seats has to meet the requirements of the CCR - it does not say they have to be the same.

Ditto for the belts - you can have a harness for the driver and stock 3 pts for the passenger.

With that said, an instructor can refuse to ride in such a car, but NASA will usually find someone to ride with you.

 

bruce

 

It's interpretation, however, at least in the Midwest and Great Lakes regions, it's pretty well understood that while the EXACT MODEL is unimportant, keeping the types the same is the key. I'll take a stock seat and 3-points if the driver is also on a basic seat with 3-points. What I will NOT do, nor will any of the other instructors that I know, is accept a stock seat and 3-points when the theoretically-rookie driver has a full containment seat, 5/6/7 points, a HANS device, etc. PARTICULARLY if the car is a high-horse machine. For me, the breaking point is the belt arrangement. I want a similar setup to what the driver has. It doesn't need to be the same. He has Sparco 6-points, and gives me Simpson latch/link 5-point? I'm fine with that. He has a Joie Of Seating custom piece, and I get a Corbeau FX? Fine. The combination of high-horsepower, lack of experience, and the "I'm safe in my cocoon over here" equipement is a recipe for "Bad Things." The cocoon gives the driver the sense of security to push the envelope in way's that they may not be ready for, and have not developed the sense of judgment to assess, and with lots of horses on tap, things can go wrong a LOT faster than I (or any other instructor) would be able to get ahead of. While equivalent safety gear won't prevent lapses in judgment, it would go a long way towards ameliorating the results...

 

As for the 3-point and Sparco seat, that would fall under "improper installation." Pull the lower side anchor of the belt, run it through the lap harness guide, then bolt it back down again. Route the buckle side through the other lap guide, and voila, the belts will work as advertised...

[miwifri]

I'd be wary of running stock 3 points with a sparco evo seat - the sides of the seat will hold the lap belt away from your body and you'll submarine.

 

The CCR states that each of the seats has to meet the requirements of the CCR - it does not say they have to be the same.

Ditto for the belts - you can have a harness for the driver and stock 3 pts for the passenger.

With that said, an instructor can refuse to ride in such a car, but NASA will usually find someone to ride with you.

 

bruce

 

It's interpretation, however, at least in the Midwest and Great Lakes regions, it's pretty well understood that while the EXACT MODEL is unimportant, keeping the types the same is the key. I'll take a stock seat and 3-points if the driver is also on a basic seat with 3-points. What I will NOT do, nor will any of the other instructors that I know, is accept a stock seat and 3-points when the theoretically-rookie driver has a full containment seat, 5/6/7 points, a HANS device, etc. PARTICULARLY if the car is a high-horse machine. For me, the breaking point is the belt arrangement. I want a similar setup to what the driver has. It doesn't need to be the same. He has Sparco 6-points, and gives me Simpson latch/link 5-point? I'm fine with that. He has a Joie Of Seating custom piece, and I get a Corbeau FX? Fine. The combination of high-horsepower, lack of experience, and the "I'm safe in my cocoon over here" equipement is a recipe for "Bad Things." The cocoon gives the driver the sense of security to push the envelope in way's that they may not be ready for, and have not developed the sense of judgment to assess, and with lots of horses on tap, things can go wrong a LOT faster than I (or any other instructor) would be able to get ahead of. While equivalent safety gear won't prevent lapses in judgment, it would go a long way towards ameliorating the results...

 

As for the 3-point and Sparco seat, that would fall under "improper installation." Pull the lower side anchor of the belt, run it through the lap harness guide, then bolt it back down again. Route the buckle side through the other lap guide, and voila, the belts will work as advertised...

 

I am in complete agreement with Dave. I have never seen the guidelines interpreted in a way that would allow a driver in 5/6 pt and race seat go out with an instructor in a 3 pt and stock seat.

 

 

Mike

NASA NE HC #23, Instructor NASA/PDA

[boxtwo]

I'd be wary of running stock 3 points with a sparco evo seat - the sides of the seat will hold the lap belt away from your body and you'll submarine.

bruce

 

I have seen this done before, plus the lap belt routing holes in the side bolsters sit low enough to work as well as a stock seat with stock 3-points.

 

As for the 3-point and Sparco seat, that would fall under "improper installation." Pull the lower side anchor of the belt, run it through the lap harness guide, then bolt it back down again. Route the buckle side through the other lap guide, and voila, the belts will work as advertised...

 

How does it fall under "improper installation?" (Simply looking for support/clarification for that statement.)

 

Can you explain your belt routing description as I do not follow.

 

To clarify again, I am NOT looking to add a racing seat and harness for the driver and nothing for the passenger. This question simply revolves around a new driver's seat and STOCK SEATBELTS FOR DRIVER AND PASSENGER.

[soundguydave]

Routing:

 

The issue as I see it with the stock 3-point belt and the Sparco seat is that the belts don't run through the harness guides at lap level, which would lead to a gap between the belt and your body. If we label the three points as follows: A) is the upper restraint mount, over the driver's left shoulder (assuming left-hand drive); B) is the latch portion, at waist level on the right; and C) is the lower restraint mount, at waist level on the left. With a typical "street tooner" seat install, the belt would run fine from A) down your torso and over towards B), but that is where the problems will start. Starting at B), and looking at the belt routing, it would run from the attachment point, over the bolster of the seat (2" above your lap??). straight across to the other bolster, then downward to point C). The fix would be to unbolt point C), drop the unbolted end through the harness guide hole in the seat, and then reattach the bolt. Next, you'd have to figure out how to route the buckle through the other harness guide hole and then click it together on the right side. That, at least, would have proper belt routing.

 

Believe me, I get what you're trying to do, and I would be fine with it as an instructor. Yes, I would prefer a similar seat, not only for safety, but so that I am "feeling" the same things you are. To clarify, the specific items do not have to match, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to upgrade things in full sets. Even if you did the Sparco, and threw a budget Corbeau in on the other side, that would meet both the letter and the spirit of the CCR, and won't really break the bank. Just make sure your belt routing is proper. I'm a skinny little dude, and if the belts won't put any pressure on my pelvis when I'm sitting in the seat, I would hop out in an instant. If I saw my student had the same issue, I would also "black flag" the car until the issue was resolved. That becomes a safety issue, and that's not something to mess about with.

[boxtwo]

For part 1, I totally understand your logic now. With those seats however, the belt does not go over teh side bolster, it goes through two "cutouts" in the bolster between points B and C in your example. This allows the lap belt portion to be apexed by the driver's pelvis (or gut) lol.

 

I also understand and appreciate the concept of "similar" equipment for the driver and instructor and the concept of "feel" is a good one that I had not considered.

 

Overall, my concern is spend 2x for seats/hardware that I am unsure of before having used them personally.

 

Routing:

 

The issue as I see it with the stock 3-point belt and the Sparco seat is that the belts don't run through the harness guides at lap level, which would lead to a gap between the belt and your body. If we label the three points as follows: A) is the upper restraint mount, over the driver's left shoulder (assuming left-hand drive); B) is the latch portion, at waist level on the right; and C) is the lower restraint mount, at waist level on the left. With a typical "street tooner" seat install, the belt would run fine from A) down your torso and over towards B), but that is where the problems will start. Starting at B), and looking at the belt routing, it would run from the attachment point, over the bolster of the seat (2" above your lap??). straight across to the other bolster, then downward to point C). The fix would be to unbolt point C), drop the unbolted end through the harness guide hole in the seat, and then reattach the bolt. Next, you'd have to figure out how to route the buckle through the other harness guide hole and then click it together on the right side. That, at least, would have proper belt routing.

 

Believe me, I get what you're trying to do, and I would be fine with it as an instructor. Yes, I would prefer a similar seat, not only for safety, but so that I am "feeling" the same things you are. To clarify, the specific items do not have to match, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to upgrade things in full sets. Even if you did the Sparco, and threw a budget Corbeau in on the other side, that would meet both the letter and the spirit of the CCR, and won't really break the bank. Just make sure your belt routing is proper. I'm a skinny little dude, and if the belts won't put any pressure on my pelvis when I'm sitting in the seat, I would hop out in an instant. If I saw my student had the same issue, I would also "black flag" the car until the issue was resolved. That becomes a safety issue, and that's not something to mess about with.

[soundguydave]

For part 1, I totally understand your logic now. With those seats however, the belt does not go over teh side bolster, it goes through two "cutouts" in the bolster between points B and C in your example. This allows the lap belt portion to be apexed by the driver's pelvis (or gut) lol.

 

Awesome, I therefore withdraw my objection! I would have no problem with that at all...

 

I also understand and appreciate the concept of "similar" equipment for the driver and instructor and the concept of "feel" is a good one that I had not considered.

 

NASA has an absolutely fantastic instructor cadre (polishes fingernails on shirt), and it only makes sense to allow your instructor the opportunity to give you the best possible feedback on your driving techniques, and quite a bit of that is literally "seat of the pants" assessment of what the car is doing.

 

Overall, my concern is spend 2x for seats/hardware that I am unsure of before having used them personally.

 

I completely understand... Best bet would be to find a local dealer that has the seat you're interested in in-stock, and actually sit in it. You're looking for a reasonably tight fit between your hips and the side bolsters, as well as your shoulders and the seat wings. Also make sure that it won't put too much pressure on the bottoms of your thighs, cutting off bloodflow to the legs. That gets VERY fatiguing. Then, if the seat does the trick for you, see if the vendor will do a deal on two!

[[email protected]]

Dave:

Sit in a few seats at your next track event to get an idea of which manufacturer's seats fit you the best. Don't play a guessing game and order seats on line based on brand name. Sparco, Racetech, Recaro, etc are all good quality seats. But, some fit certain body types better than others. Are you thin, or more round. Do you have a long torso, or long legs. For example, one of my friends and I are the same height and weight. But he has a long torso and shorter legs, and I have long legs. In standard size seats like a Sparco Evo, and Racetech RT4009, I fit great, he doesn't since his shoulders completely cover the shoulder belt openings. Definitely sit in several different brands and models. It's unpleasant driving on track in a seat that doesn't fit right.

 

As others have said, the equal restraint rule means if you are using a race seat and harness, then you must have the same thing for the instructor. If they are different brands, doesn't matter. Also, when you do put a race seat in the passenger side, get a wide one so you don't run into problems of instructors not fitting in the right seat.

 

If you are going to Hyperfest, we have seats at the OG Racing Pro Shop at Summit Point that you can try out before you make a decision.

 

Kind regards,

[boxtwo]

 

NASA has an absolutely fantastic instructor cadre (polishes fingernails on shirt), and it only makes sense to allow your instructor the opportunity to give you the best possible feedback on your driving techniques, and quite a bit of that is literally "seat of the pants" assessment of what the car is doing.

 

Shameless plug! lol

 

I completely understand... Best bet would be to find a local dealer that has the seat you're interested in in-stock, and actually sit in it. You're looking for a reasonably tight fit between your hips and the side bolsters, as well as your shoulders and the seat wings. Also make sure that it won't put too much pressure on the bottoms of your thighs, cutting off bloodflow to the legs. That gets VERY fatiguing. Then, if the seat does the trick for you, see if the vendor will do a deal on two!

 

I sat in a couple @Summit in April, but I'd need to see how it works with me IN my OWN car.

 

Mark (OG): This whole process got started after getting tossed around @Summit in April, getting a few recommendations for upgrading seats, and subsequently, trying them out at the OG shop. Thanks for the tips, I am sure you'll see me in there again @Hyperfest!

[[email protected]]

Dave:

I will be at Hyperfest helping out at the store and instructing. I'd be more than happy to help you get fitted for a seat. We have at least 8 seats at the store that you can try. I probably won't be bringing a car so I will be in the store or walking the paddock in between student sessions so I'll make sure to find you during the event.

 

Kind regards,

[boxtwo]

Dave:

I will be at Hyperfest helping out at the store and instructing. I'd be more than happy to help you get fitted for a seat. We have at least 8 seats at the store that you can try. I probably won't be bringing a car so I will be in the store or walking the paddock in between student sessions so I'll make sure to find you during the event.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark-

 

I am sure we will meet up at some point, thanks!

[Honda-Junky]

For what its worth, I ran a Corbeau Forza FX-1 Seat on the driver side with the OEM 3 point belts in my civic and the OEM seat and 3 point belt setup for the instructor. I had an identical Corbeau seat that I could have installed on the passenger side, but I didn't because I didn't want an instructor to feel like the mounting was sketchy in any way. I thought that the instructor would want the OEM over the aftermarket installed by me, an HPDE1 driver at the time. I would say that that setup was never questioned by any of my instructors over the course of about 5 events. Now the FX-1's are installed for driver and passenger.

[Bruce L.]

then you haven't traded emails with Jerry Kunzman about it. The CCR allows a driver to have a racing shell and harness, and the passenger to only have a stock seat and 3 points, as Honda-Junky relates. NASA will never force an instructor to ride in a car they don't want to instruct in.

bruce

 

I am in complete agreement with Dave. I have never seen the guidelines interpreted in a way that would allow a driver in 5/6 pt and race seat go out with an instructor in a 3 pt and stock seat.

 

 

Mike

NASA NE HC #23, Instructor NASA/PDA

[kbrew8991]

NASA will never force an instructor to ride in a car they don't want to instruct in.

 

and no sane instructor would ride in a car with unequal restraints, thus, we should recommend that people get the sides equal so they can participate in an HPDE weekend...

[Honda-Junky]

then you haven't traded emails with Jerry Kunzman about it. The CCR allows a driver to have a racing shell and harness, and the passenger to only have a stock seat and 3 points

 

Until your post here is what I thought: I thought that you couldn't have Racing Seat and Harness without a roll bar and that you couldn't have a rollbar if you were only using OEM Seat/Belts.

 

I tried to find this in the CCR, but I could not:

 

I thought you needed to have at least a roll bar to run harnesses or is that just a recommendation?

I thought that you needed a pretty substantial seat back brace to run an OEM seat with a roll bar?

[miwifri]

then you haven't traded emails with Jerry Kunzman about it. The CCR allows a driver to have a racing shell and harness, and the passenger to only have a stock seat and 3 points, as Honda-Junky relates. NASA will never force an instructor to ride in a car they don't want to instruct in.

bruce

 

I am in complete agreement with Dave. I have never seen the guidelines interpreted in a way that would allow a driver in 5/6 pt and race seat go out with an instructor in a 3 pt and stock seat.

 

 

Mike

NASA NE HC #23, Instructor NASA/PDA

 

 

I can't argue that on careful reading of the CCR that it wouldn't allow different seats/belts for the passenger. I guess I and others I know have always stuck with the idea that a generally equal set up was the rule. The suppose the option not to ride in a student's car may be applied for any number of reasons.

 

Mike

NASA NE

HC #23