ST3 how is it progressing?

[Shawn M.]

Write your congressman.......the powers that be don't want ST3

 

 

Not true. The powers to be want people to ATTEND in ST3. 2 cars attending sporatic events does not a class, make.

[philstireservice]

Write your congressman.......the powers that be don't want ST3

 

 

Not true. The powers to be want people to ATTEND in ST3. 2 cars attending sporatic events does not a class, make.

 

 

 

Make something important and it will get subscribed to........

 

in other words....help the class !!

 

Make it available in all regions.......right now PTA and PTB are only better by 1 car, here or there

[Shawn M.]

Make something important and it will get subscribed to........

 

in other words....help the class !!

 

Make it available in all regions.......right now PTA and PTB are only better by 1 car, here or there

 

 

Phil, as I told you at Putnam Park, we made it available to the 2 regions that screamed for it the most and it just hasnt panned out. Those that asked for it were then responsible to grow the class.

 

Do you want a do over for 2011?

[John Graber]

I want ST3 in the Great Lakes Region for 2011.

[philstireservice]

I want ST3 in the Great Lakes Region for 2011.

 

 

 

 

Shawn - Yes

 

trade in Texas and the NE for Great Lakes and Mid Atlantic

[Greg G.]

I want ST3 in the Great Lakes Region for 2011.

 

 

 

 

Shawn - Yes

 

trade in Texas and the NE for Great Lakes and Mid Atlantic

Mid Atlantic? They have had no ST1 cars, no PTA cars, no PTB cars, and only three ST2 cars that ran at least two weekends. Where exactly would the ST3 cars come from? At least in this region we don't have to worry about them getting "taken" from PTA or PTB.

 

Great Lakes? Who wants it there, the one semi-regular PTA car? John, are you looking for a Supersize option for the GTS guys?

 

We were assured that there were 6-8 ST3 cars ready to go in the Northeast by Phil et al. Nobody showed. We were told that there was a big demand for ST3 in Texas....not so much once it was possible. We were told what a huge demand there was for the STR classes, and after two years, still not so great. NASA already has enough classes with too few cars. Now, if we could somehow get buy-in to delete PTA, PTB, TTA, and TTB and replace the four classes with just two classes, ST3 and TT3 (?), that may be interesting, but I think the majority of PTB, TTB, and all of the Corvettes in TTA will not be so happy.

[philstireservice]

I want ST3 in the Great Lakes Region for 2011.

 

 

 

 

Shawn - Yes

 

trade in Texas and the NE for Great Lakes and Mid Atlantic

Mid Atlantic? They have had no ST1 cars, no PTA cars, no PTB cars, and only three ST2 cars that ran at least two weekends. Where exactly would the ST3 cars come from? At least in this region we don't have to worry about them getting "taken" from PTA or PTB.

 

Great Lakes? Who wants it there, the one semi-regular PTA car? John, are you looking for a Supersize option for the GTS guys?

 

We were assured that there were 6-8 ST3 cars ready to go in the Northeast by Phil et al. Nobody showed. We were told that there was a big demand for ST3 in Texas....not so much once it was possible. We were told what a huge demand there was for the STR classes, and after two years, still not so great. NASA already has enough classes with too few cars. Now, if we could somehow get buy-in to delete PTA, PTB, TTA, and TTB and replace the four classes with just two classes, ST3 and TT3 (?), that may be interesting, but I think the majority of PTB, TTB, and all of the Corvettes in TTA will not be so happy.

 

 

Unfortunately this entire situation is debacle.......on paper, in my opinion ST3 is a super idea...an easy classing formula and might even pull from other clubs. Of course someone is not going to be happy either way. Right now and for the past 2-3 years PTA and PTB haven't been anything to get excited about. TTA and TTB might be a little different, but in general there is less subscription in the race classes. I believe ST3 is a lower cost option for the on the fence drivers who don't want to spend money for ST2 and can just add ballast for ST3. I know Greg and Shawn are probably saying...."Phil has been pushing this ST3 but nobody is signing up"...or something like that. If I didn't work at the track with some of the biggest regions in the country and could race instead, I'm absolutely positive that I could grow the ST3 class and make it work. But that ain't going to happen any time soon. I'm left to race in the so-called off season (as far as we are concerned). My plan is to race at CMP and Road Atlanta in the coming months, officially in ST2, but in my mind it will be ST3 (and maybe even on the car...

 

Overall I guess what it will take is NASA to "buy-in" to the PTA, PTB, TTA and TTB delete and go from there....

[drivinhardz06]

Now, if we could somehow get buy-in to delete PTA, PTB, TTA, and TTB and replace the four classes with just two classes, ST3 and TT3 (?), that may be interesting, but I think the majority of PTB, TTB, and all of the Corvettes in TTA will not be so happy.

 

IIRC, the last few 2 or 3 events at Road Atlanta had 18-20 cars in TTA and TTB, split about even.

 

I know of 5 or 6 TTA corvette's that have either gotten converted to w2w (PTA) or are in the process of being converted (I have personally worked on 4 of them).

 

I think PTA in the SE should be a big class next year, as there are already 4 or 5 thunder roadsters that frequent. And with the same power to weight as ST2, it will be easy to flip between ST2 or PTA depending on car counts, contingency, etc, for that weekend.

[kbrew8991]

TTA is huge in TX - with some close to pulling the trigger on PTA as well. TTB / PTB is getting there... it'll be a real tough sell Phil

[ninetyfourintegra]

I know Greg and Shawn are probably saying...."Phil has been pushing this ST3 but nobody is signing up"...or something like that. If I didn't work at the track with some of the biggest regions in the country and could race instead, I'm absolutely positive that I could grow the ST3 class and make it work.

 

For what its worth, Phil hits me up every time we talk or exchange an email about ST3 since the idea of the class came out - - and I'm in PTD

 

Here's an idea Phil, sponsor me a build for ST3

[John Graber]

Great Lakes? Who wants it there, the one semi-regular PTA car? John, are you looking for a Supersize option for the GTS guys?

It is not about stealing cars from other classes, that does nothing for Nasa or the Region. It is about creating an avenue to attract new cars. In 2009 the Great Lakes Region had 94 race entries in Super Touring. In 2010, including registrants for the last event of the year, we have 156 race entries. We have a solid program, committed drivers, and a Region that has demonstrated it's staying power. The drivers want the series to grow and will spread the word to facilitate the growth in ST3 if we give them the opportunity. We also have the Championships returning to Mid Ohio next year and that should attract additional attention for the Region, a good bit of which will come from competing sanctioning bodies.

 

Make it happen.

[philstireservice]

I know Greg and Shawn are probably saying...."Phil has been pushing this ST3 but nobody is signing up"...or something like that. If I didn't work at the track with some of the biggest regions in the country and could race instead, I'm absolutely positive that I could grow the ST3 class and make it work.

 

For what its worth, Phil hits me up every time we talk or exchange an email about ST3 since the idea of the class came out - - and I'm in PTD

 

Here's an idea Phil, sponsor me a build for ST3

 

 

LOL...when you and your Integra can beat me and my Integra we'll talk....

[philstireservice]

Great Lakes? Who wants it there, the one semi-regular PTA car? John, are you looking for a Supersize option for the GTS guys?

It is not about stealing cars from other classes, that does nothing for Nasa or the Region. It is about creating an avenue to attract new cars. In 2009 the Great Lakes Region had 94 race entries in Super Touring. In 2010, including registrants for the last event of the year, we have 156 race entries. We have a solid program, committed drivers, and a Region that has demonstrated it's staying power. The drivers want the series to grow and will spread the word to facilitate the growth in ST3 if we give them the opportunity. We also have the Championships returning to Mid Ohio next year and that should attract additional attention for the Region, a good bit of which will come from competing sanctioning bodies.

 

Make it happen.

 

 

Nicely said !!

[ninetyfourintegra]

LOL...when you and your Integra can beat me and my Integra we'll talk....

Sweet. Wait, but that will mean I'm already built.

[philstireservice]

LOL...when you and your Integra can beat me and my Integra we'll talk....

Sweet. Wait, but that will mean I'm already built.

 

 

smack talk...I love it...

[Greg G.]

Great Lakes? Who wants it there, the one semi-regular PTA car? John, are you looking for a Supersize option for the GTS guys?

It is not about stealing cars from other classes, that does nothing for Nasa or the Region. It is about creating an avenue to attract new cars. In 2009 the Great Lakes Region had 94 race entries in Super Touring. In 2010, including registrants for the last event of the year, we have 156 race entries. We have a solid program, committed drivers, and a Region that has demonstrated it's staying power. The drivers want the series to grow and will spread the word to facilitate the growth in ST3 if we give them the opportunity. We also have the Championships returning to Mid Ohio next year and that should attract additional attention for the Region, a good bit of which will come from competing sanctioning bodies.

 

Make it happen.

It is about cars getting stolen from other classes. The success of ST1 and ST2 is largely due to NASA not having an appropriate class for those cars to run in until we deleted the three Vette-Viper Challenge classes, and formed the two ST classes that we knew could draw a large number or cars from outside of NASA (both currently running in other organizations and cars that could be built). Until then, they could either run in Super Unlimited (no chance of being competitive), or be limited to the VVC rules that were not ammenable to the cars running in outside classes. Yes, we have cars specifically being built from scratch for ST1 and ST2, but many of them are crossovers from other classes. The ones being built for ST1 and ST2 had nowhere else in NASA to run. This is a much different case than ST3. NASA already has multiple classes where the potential ST3 cars fit. Cars only come from three places--built for a class, come from another NASA class, come from an outside class. Those potential ST3 cars that are "built for a class" only help NASA and your region if they weren't going to be built for another current NASA class otherwise. The list of potential current NASA classes that could be effected in some way by ST3 is big:

PTA

PTB

GTS3

FFC

CMC

CMC2

AI

HC2

HC1

ST2

(and TTA and TTB if we add a TT class to go with ST3)

 

With that list, there is pretty much a place for every car in this Wt/hp range to run in already. Even the EP, FP, and HP cars fit into this list even though the drivers don't particularly care for adding up their points in PT (but they don't mind the 76 pages of P rules ). However, with Dyno re-classing, the EP's generally fit right where they are competitive in PTA. So, once again, we come back to the question as to where will the ST3 cars come from? Will they come from EP/FP? Will they come from cars that would have been built for GTS3 otherwise? Will they come from TTA or TTB cars, instead of those cars feeding into PTB and PTA? When I developed the ST classing system and the ST Rules, I knew exactly where the ST cars were going to come from. John, are you going to move your TTB car to ST3 instead of PTB? I have a PTB car sitting in the garage for a year that could come back as an ST3 car (after about $15,000 in mods because unlimited classes like ST definitely cost more to build a competitive car than a class like PTB). Will ST3 just take cars from all of the above classes equally (ie. hurt them equally, after some have just started to make a nice comeback)? I don't have a problem with ST3. I have a problem with the continuous dilution of classes that occurs when a few people decide that they don't like the rules of the class that their car fits into. ST3 WILL steal cars from other classes--other NASA classes. There is no doubt about that. Some will be Supersizes, and others will just be a dilution of current classes. As an ST Director, John may not have a problem with that, as his job is to build his series. But, the question remains whether we end up losing more drivers to other organizations because they are fed up with spending their time, money, and efforts into building a car for a series that just ends up getting diluted (and/or deleted) by a class like ST3, or gaining more drivers (new or from other org's.) that decided against running in one of the ten classes listed above, but would run in ST3.

 

Once again, any volunteers to have their current NASA classes deleted? ST3 could be an awesome class if we deleted PTA, PTB, and GTS3. (No, Ian and the rest, I'm not suggesting.....)

[philstireservice]

I'll add some input here. It's a rough estimate (average), but I keep an eye on most of the classes because they are all my customers.

 

Class Region Participation

 

PTA NE 0-1 MA 0-2 GL 0-3

PTB NE 0 MA 0-1 GL 0-1

GTS3 NE 3-6 MA 2-4 GL 3-6 *Mid Atlantic was a big GTS3 region, but everyone has downsized to GTS2

FFC NE 0-1 MA 1-3 GL 3-5

CMC NE 0-1 MA 3-6 GL 2-4

CMC2 NE 0-1 MA 2-5 GL 2-4

AI NE 1-2 MA 5-7 GL 5-7

HC2 NE 4-8 MA 4-8 GL 3-6 * the NE and MA share most of the HC2 cars so it depends on where they want to race on any given weekend

HC1 NE 1-2 MA 1-3 GL 2-4 * same as HC2

ST2 NE 1-2 MA 1-2 GL 3-5

 

 

 

(and TTA and TTB if we add a TT class to go with ST3)

 

TTA and TTB do well in most of the regions with the exception of the NE who doesn't have much of TT program to start with....or a race program for that matter....

 

Now remember these numbers above are an average and are not backed up with any proof, just a rough estimate from memory. Some events like Hyperfest grow the numbers, but on an average they are pretty close I would think.

 

I will agree that a ST3 class would for the most part be a bit more expensive than some of the above classes, but the numbers would be bigger (assuming most switched to ST3) and then the tire contingencies would kick in almost always.

 

I applaud the efforts of NASA trying to separate cars into classes to satisfy the membership. It would just seem that there are too many classes with too few cars per class to benefit most.

[kbrew8991]

contingency doesn't mean much to those that can't win it.

[philstireservice]

Another point just popped into my head. We just spent a week at the SCCA Runoffs in Wisconsin as tire support for the Spec Miata class. There were 63 Miatas in the race the back markers were 12-15 seconds slower. The Production and GT classes had an average of 12-18 cars per class, some where 20 seconds slower. In general you had a few front runners that would be within 1-3 seconds of each other, except for SM who were within 100ths of each other, but for the most part all the classes had a few in the front and bunch in the middle and few at end....all racing each other. The point I'm trying to make is, although an ST3 class would combine many different manufacturers all with different speed potential within the 10.25 - 1 hp/wt ratio, I believe there would always be someone to race along with the motivational factor of bettering yourself within the class each time out.

 

I'd rather be in a class with 10-20 cars at each event then come out and race myself or with one other car each time. If I'm mid pack my incentive is to be on the podium. If I'm a back marker well then I'll work to NOT be last or in the last pack. It will take time and effort, but I believe it's a much better alternative then racing 2 or 3 guys at every event....that gets old very quick. With more cars and drivers there is always that chance to improve, albeit one position out of 15 cars, but in the long run it is better than one position out of 3 cars......oh it's great once or twice, but an entire season....nope, I'll find something else to do or another class to race with more cars.......see !! it's inevitable.

[philstireservice]

contingency doesn't mean much to those that can't win it.

 

 

Who can't win ?? Those that can't.....DON'T

 

 

Exactly !! If 3 cars show up no contingency. More cars then there is a chance.

[philstireservice]

What about a minimum participation level?

 

Example: The class has to have an average of 2.5 cars per event for an entire season or else it goes on probation for the following year. If the levels don't increase in that following year, then the class goes away the year after the probational year.

[John Graber]

Ok, so here's what I think.

 

First, I believe locally there is a market for ST3. We could find a better home for some straggler cars that don't have anyone to race against, plus we have another easy avenue for new cars to participate. I do not know that the Regional Director or Race Director agree, but that's my view as the ST Director. Yes I will steal some cars from other classes. It happened in PTA and AIX this year, but their overall satisfaction level is much higher runnig in ST/SU. They consistently have more cars to race against Regionally, period. Yes this is selfish. Yes I want ST to be the largest group, have it's own start, run group, bigger trophies etc.

 

Second, I also believe there are already way too many classes that overlap and that needs to change. Certainly ST3 does not help that cause.

 

Third, Phil needs tune his car for ST2 if he wants to play with the big boys in GL.

 

Finally, Greenbaum once again has eaten up most of the server bandwidth with his response

[Rob Lay]

I'll keep it simple. If NASA doesn't keep ST3 they are stupid. They should also consolidate classes and do ST4/5. Last thing we need is another SCCA type failure.

[mbuskuhl]

They should also consolidate classes and do ST4/5.

It would just seem that there are too many classes with too few cars per class to benefit most.

It will take time and effort, but I believe it's a much better alternative then racing 2 or 3 guys at every event....that gets old very quick.

What about a minimum participation level?

 

^^ Excellent comments.

 

The minimum participation level is the way to go. Survival of the fittest. No more keeping these classes that are under subscribed just to appease a few people. There are an unbelievable 27 different production car non-spec classes! Add 7 spec classes and we have an astounding 34 different production car classes!!!! Completely unnecessary, too many classes, too few cars in most classes so people leave and race elsewhere or they never come to NASA to begin with because there is no one in the class. Too much of this manufacturer or country specific classing going on.

 

I find it funny that there are more Mazdas road raced than any other manufacturer but there is no Mazda specific class except for SMC/SSM. Honda gets it's own series. American muscle, Camaros, Mustangs, anything German as well. But Mazda, the most popular, nope. I am not saying there should be a Mazda series, in fact the opposite is true. The only manufacturer specific class should be spec classes. Drop the G from GTS, the H from HC, etc....

 

I suppose if one thought the current participation levels were acceptable and liked where things were headed, then in that case by all means keep things how they are. It's just when you see 30 entrants in EP and 3 in PTA it makes you wonder if the current classing system is working.

[obzezzed350]

^ I agree with this. I am the lone PTA car in my region. We get a handful of HC cars, a few GTS cars, a few AI cars, etc. If there was a simple PT or ST structure to consolidate these to, I think it would work. Though I am biased because I want some competition

 

I dont have any SCCA experience but isnt the only car specific class Spec Miata?