Cobra4B Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 When I first got into HPDE stuff I unknowingly bought some Hawk Blues.... they stopped the car great, but over night it rained and the next day the sun was out.... all the dust turned to fused on rust.... it was horrible. I have never run Hawks since then. Over the years I've run Wilwood J's then H's and some Carbotech's in between. Has Hawk changed things up any or are they still notorious for paint/wheel ruining dust? What's the popular Wilwood compound these days? Anyone run PFC01s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda-Junky Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 Can't say about my experience with the hawk blues, but I have had a few sets of the HP Plus brake pads with white wheels and it always cleans right off, definitely no damage though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 Blues and the DTC's are very different from the HP and HP+ pads from my understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 All of my wheels are already toast, so I can't help you there, but I can speak for how good of a pad the 70's are. Which is all I ever cared about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomn29 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 When I first got into HPDE stuff I unknowingly bought some Hawk Blues.... they stopped the car great, but over night it rained and the next day the sun was out.... all the dust turned to fused on rust.... it was horrible. I have never run Hawks since then. Over the years I've run Wilwood J's then H's and some Carbotech's in between. Has Hawk changed things up any or are they still notorious for paint/wheel ruining dust? What's the popular Wilwood compound these days? Anyone run PFC01s? The Hawk Blues are they're own problem. I had a set given to me once and I turned around and gave them away too. I didn't want to mess with the issues just like the OP mentioned. I've ran DTC60's and PFC01's. Neither have the wet cementing issue of the blues. Both are a higher torque compound and a 'track-only' pad. You'll get dust from anything with stopping power but I'm sure you know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 So the DTC's don't have the "special" issues of the blues/blacks? Are they still rotor killers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 I just got 4 TT weekends out of one set of 70's and rotors. That is with a front brake bias that I have yet to sort out. I think that with proper front/rear bias I could have gotten another event out of them. I probably won't even need another set this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 17, 2010 Author Share Posted June 17, 2010 Wow that's pretty good..... and no issues w/ getting the dust wet and it turning to rusting cement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor57 Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 All my wheels are old oem wheels that I have never cleaned, so I couldn't say for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 17, 2010 Share Posted June 17, 2010 DTC70's were rotor killers for me. They'd pop your eyes out, but I got tired of changing rotors mulitple times per day. Carbotech XP12/10's are close enough, and don't eat rotors as fast. All of my wheels, OEM Z06, still clean up, on the rare occasion I get motivated and clean them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 18, 2010 Author Share Posted June 18, 2010 Yeah I'm not trying to keep a race car in show car shape, but Hawk Blues literally ruin stuff.... it just doesn't come off. I even have stains on my driveway 5 years old from Hawk Blues. Jason why run 12/10s vs. 16/12s? I ran 12/10s once but thay tapered so badly in one weekend that they were done for... Wilwood H's ate rotors a bit, but they lasted forever. -Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jay A. Posted June 18, 2010 Members Share Posted June 18, 2010 This is Jay Andrew-The guy that teaches all the Brake Tek classes in the different NASA regions. Ask me any brake question and I will try to answer or find an answer. Firs off if you have not heard of it or read it the book High-Performance Brake Systems by James Walker Jr. is a wonderful, technical resource for all of these questions. Ok here is the deal with brake dust- Most of the brads mentioned here are Semi-Metallic others like Pagid are organic with brass or copper. Semi-Metallic means they have ferrous materials in them (ground up steel wool). Semi Metalic pads work very well as the metal hold up to the intense heat we generate. When the dust from this gets wet or left on the wheels it will oxidize and turn to rust. The Old Hawk Blue compound was the best thing on the market in its day when it came out about 20 years ago after they banned asbestos. The thing with the blue compound when it is used beyond its designed temperature range 900F it becomes abrasive on the rotors. Most of the dust from the hawk blues is rotor dust in addition to the pad dust. The new DTC compounds are not abrasive on rotors so there is not as much dust. Track days use lots of pad. That friction material has to go somewhere. Some of it sticks to the wheels. Anyone who wants their car to look good should carry a bottle of windex or wheel cleaner and a roll of paper towels to the track and wipe down their wheels a couple times a weekend. This is why pro teams cars look so good is they clean their cars and wheels after every session. This is what I do. When I get home I take off the wheels and spray with simple green and scrub them with a brush and wash them very well with water. Brake clean will take off the stubborn rubber and oil marks. DTC compounds are not abrasive on rotors. However enough temperature and heat cycles will crack a rotor over time. This is not a function of the pad compound or manufacture. In James Walkers book describes the job of the brake system is to convert kinetic energy into heat through friction. The brakes are supposed to get hot. Here is the basic equation Speed X weight equals heat (temperature). Someone with an engineering degree can give us the full equation. Basically the faster or heavier the car the more heat the brakes generate. This has nothing to do with the friction level of the pad or what it is made from. To stop a 3000 pound car from 100 mph generates the same amount of heat in the brakes regardless of the brake pad. In my advanced class I talk about brake balance. One way to reduce the heat in the front brakes is to match the rear brake pad to the front or balance the system. Not all but most new drivers have a very aggressive pad on the front and too mild of a pad on the rear. This will over heat and over dust the front brakes. So the bottom line is whatever brake pad brand you use wipe down your wheels to keep them looking good. I hope this helps, Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vettedoctor Posted June 18, 2010 Share Posted June 18, 2010 I've been very happy with the DTC-70's, you see a lot of T1 cars running them (I would say it's a push between them and CarboTech) I think that the DTC-70's are easy on rotors but they don't last all that long. I get 1 day out of them at Road America. The Wilwood H pads are harder on rotors than the DTC-70's IMHO. It's kind of the differance between Hoosier A's (in this case the DTC-70's) and Hoosier R's Wilwood H. Better braking versus pad life. The differance between the Blues and DTC-70's is huge, I've never had an issue with cleaning the dust off of wheels, plus Blues are rotor killers. I think I tried a set on my C4 5 or 6 years ago. What car are you looking to use them on the Panoz or the Vette? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 18, 2010 Author Share Posted June 18, 2010 I'm picking up a '01 Z06 to make into a TTA car this weekend.... on the Panoz we've been ruing PFC97s for 2.5 years w/o changing them... it's quite amazing. But the car is 2700lbs and it has nice brembos on it and new pads are very very thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 i run the DTC60's on my miata. Left the car outside the shop one day when it rained and had the rust issue on the lips of my wheels and calipers. Just going to take some elbow grease to get it off...After all its just a track car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 21, 2010 Author Share Posted June 21, 2010 Report back to me on how much elbow grease it takes? Hawk Blue dust plain doesn't come off.... I know it's "Just a track car", but hawk blue literally is like putting cement on everything.... it can ruin brake calipers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edhunter Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 I run a 88 mustang in HPDE3. Weight is 2830 wet w/o driver. Front brakes are DTC70s on brembo calipers, 13" rotors. Rears are DTC60's with stock 12" rotors. This was based on recommendations from Jay, which BTW, is who I buy my pads from. Works very well IMO. They do dust, but I just cleaned a set of wheels that had been in bags from last October's VIR event. They were not cleaned before storage, and I took them out as someone was interested in buying the tires. Cleaned them up to send pics, just a quick terry towel and dishwashing soap. Not sure if the wheels got wet but I wasn't being careful with the wheels, just a track whore. They cleaned easily, no pitting or wheel damage. I like the pads. My rotors and pads last 4-5 weekends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share Posted June 29, 2010 Nice post.... the real test would be to get them wet and let them dry I ended up going with Carbotechs, actually ordered 2 sets of XP12s front and XP10s rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jay A. Posted June 29, 2010 Members Share Posted June 29, 2010 So now the same experiment with the new pads…After the next track event leave the car outside until the next rain wait until dry. I would be really curious to hear the results. The new Hawk DTC compounds do not have the same dusting issues of the old blues but I would still not suggest to anyone using a semi-metallic pad of any brand (Hawk or other) to try this experiment at home. I am not trying to knock other brands besides Hawk. I am just saying that a brake pad that is semi-metallic or carbon metallic is mostly made of ferrous metal, carbon, binders and the other proprietary “special” ingredients. The dust from this ferrous metal (steel or iron) in the pad left long enough on a wheel will oxidize (especially left in the rain) making it more difficult to remove than if wiped down at the track soon after use. Now that this dust discussion is out of the way let’s talk performance. Most of my regional and national champion TT and race winning customers in well prepared Corvettes use the same compound front and rear. Your next set of rears you may want to experiment and use the same compound you have on the front. You never know you could be a second a lap faster and you front brakes run cooler. However if the car is not well balanced or has all stock suspension then a lesser rear pad may be required. It seems that the ABS in these awesome Z06 cars is well programmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted June 29, 2010 Author Share Posted June 29, 2010 Most C5/C6 racers run one heat range lower in the rear because the rear pads aren't seeing the temps of the fronts because they aren't doing the same amount of work. I've run Carbotechs in the past and they clean up easily and don't bond to paint. Chris Ingle whose been very successful in T1 over the years swears by Carbotechs. Plus they're nicer to the rotors than the DTCs from what I've read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedengineer Posted June 29, 2010 Share Posted June 29, 2010 I run the DTC-60s and once I accidentally (read "through negligence"), let them sit dusty for about 10 days and they got rained on and dried. The dust, while it didn't rust per say, became solid on the wheels. It would NOT come off now matter how much washing I did. So then I went to walmart and bought some acetone. Figured that would clean them up. Nope... All I have to say is that the dust cleans off really easy as long as you take the time to wash it before it sits too long. Oh, and that equation Jay alluded to a while back is kinetic energy equals 1/2*mass*speed^2. Just for fun, the amount of energy absorbed by the brakes in slowing a 3000lb car from 115mph to 60mph could power a 60W light bulb for 6 hours..!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWeber Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 here is what happens if you don't care about the wheels and just let the Hawk brake dust become part of the wheel finish: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 I ended up going with Carbotechs, actually ordered 2 sets of XP12s front and XP10s rear. TTA was never meant to be a spending contest, but if it were you're definately winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted July 1, 2010 Author Share Posted July 1, 2010 Carbotech gives a Corvetteforum and NASA discount so they were cheaper than anything else out there. Last time I used Carbotechs years ago I really liked them but went through a set of pads in 2 weekends.... so I wanted spares! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted July 1, 2010 Share Posted July 1, 2010 Last time I used Carbotechs years ago I really liked them but went through a set of pads in 2 weekends.... so I wanted spares! We need to get you back down here to run CMP. You'll burn through a set of pads in 2 days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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