AI National Championship Race - OFFICIAL Results & Notes

[74 mach]

Todd,

What were the correction factors on these 3 cars when they dyno'd illegal, compared to the day before?

[wstukas]

What was non-compliant about # 41's wheels?

[GEORGEWINKLER]

10" wide instead of 9.5'

[Red Tornado]

For anyone who has spedcast the SCCA nationals are live right now as well

[74 mach]

Todd,

What were the correction factors on these 3 cars when they dyno'd illegal, compared to the day before?

[nape]

Todd,

What were the correction factors on these 3 cars when they dyno'd illegal, compared to the day before?

 

Bueller?

[Jeff F]

I have a better idea. Why don't you simply post up the dyno graphs-- all of them, including the temps and correction factors?

 

Since official dynos are supposed to be public, there is no reason not to.

[Red Tornado]

OK everyone needs to let this go. Todd as so cool to even share.

This isn't instant replay football guys.

It stands and its done and it appears Todd did a damn good job with some tough calls. Time to wrap this baby up!

[D Algozine]

OK everyone needs to let this go. Todd as so cool to even share.

This isn't instant replay football guys.

It stands and its done and it appears Todd did a damn good job with some tough calls. Time to wrap this baby up!

 

I don't think it's that simple. When the top two cars are over at the National race, I think it's fair to have some detailed discussion. I don't think anyone is expecting any calls to be reversed, and if they are, then that is exteme, but the dyno rules our class. If the system or proceedure is flawed, then that's a huge deal. Even if it was a one time error, resulting from circumstances, it should still be discussed and explained.

There were only a few guys there, the rest of us are getting info second hand. And there are only a small few who know exactly what happened. I can't imagine anyone wants this to happend again, so a discussion about exactly what happened and how, including hard data, is not too much to ask. If its not transparent, then it can lead to conjecture.

[kbrew8991]

If its not transparent, then it can lead to conjecture.

 

a wise man once said this in a situation that was similar:

 

"Sunlight is the best disinfectant"

[stevepoe]

The burning smell arond here and the cross being constructed has been telling me to stay out of this but ...

 

 

Ok, this is what I know

 

Todd was just glad Dean found his dirt bike, all along sneaky Dean stole It just for the purpose of giving it back right when he needed too.. good plan Dean

 

Dave, Well Dave just wanted to win since it had been forever since he been in a race car and always had to watch from the tower.

 

Secretley I was told Dave made a Deal with Dean That if he got him into the top three Dean would get in free for the 2011 season in the great lakes region . Since Dean was not going to have to pay out any money for the 2011 season Dean secretley slipped Greg $500 to let him and dave pass on the dyno......all along Todd was just making sure nothing was missing from his bike.

 

that is how it happened. I was standing next to them and heard everything.

 

Todd, it's all your fault ....If you not left your dirtbike sitting around so every dick around the place could have stole it we would never have had this problem.. It's all fun and games till somebody gets hurt .

 

I bet you don't act like this at GRAND AM events ? Do you need me to get Stacey to take care of this ?

 

get some spikes I see the cross going up ....

[D Algozine]

The burning smell arond here and the cross being constructed has been telling me to stay out of this but ...

 

 

Ok, this is what I know

 

Todd was just glad Dean found his dirt bike, all along sneaky Dean stole It just for the purpose of giving it back right when he needed too.. good plan Dean

 

Dave, Well Dave just wanted to win since it had been forever since he been in a race car and always had to watch from the tower.

 

Secretley I was told Dave made a Deal with Dean That if he got him into the top three Dean would get in free for the 2011 season in the great lakes region . Since Dean was not going to have to pay out any money for the 2011 season Dean secretley slipped Greg $500 to let him and dave pass on the dyno......all along Todd was just making sure nothing was missing from his bike.

 

that is how it happened. I was standing next to them and heard everything.

 

Todd, it's all your fault ....If you not left your dirtbike sitting around so every dick around the place could have stole it we would never have had this problem.. It's all fun and games till somebody gets hurt .

 

I bet you don't act like this at GRAND AM events ? Do you need me to get Stacey to take care of this ?

 

get some spikes I see the cross going up ....

 

Again, most of us weren't there, so the inside jokes went over our heads.

 

I don't think anyone is insinuating that there was a conspiracy, or even sure that it was handled wrong. I'm sure if any of us were in Dean or Daves position, we would want ever possible option exhuasted before we got DQ'd. But, I think it would be helpful for the future if we all understand what happended and why, and what to expect if something like this happens again, or what is going to be done to prevent this from happening. It's a National event, it shouldn't come to this. Perhaps there will be some revisions to the dyno proceedure.

 

I don't think it's out of line to have the dyno pulls looked at from those two cars for the whole weekend, along with the correction factors and compare to the weather conditions. I also don't think it makes sense to demand this info, but agian, sharing the info goes along way to understanding. I suppose the risk is that nearly everyone will interpret the data differently, which can lead to a more issues. At the very least, every regional directior should be given the info and data and have it explained thorughly.

[stevepoe]

I suppose the risk is that nearly everyone will interpret the data differently, which can lead to a more issues. At the very least, every regional directior should be given the info and data and have it explained thorughly.

 

Yup , agreed totally Dave

 

to bad you didn't make it ,all in all it was a lot of fun. How is the new car ? any luck selling the mustang ?

[UBR]

Todd was just glad Dean found his dirt bike,

Somebody took his dirt bike?

 

I missed that.

 

Todd did a decent job of trying to keep things entertaining and equal. Unfortunately there were a few examples where it seems he didn't know the specifics of the rules as well as I would expect a national director should.

 

The splitter "intent", despite the rules being very clearly written that they were "unrestricted' was one that bit you.

 

The, very well written and appreciated, description of the post race procedure where he described the dyno pulls with the hood on vs the rules that state it should be open is another. Making an announcement at a drivers meeting is not the place or time to dictate a rule change that might impact a cars legality for a national championship. We showed up and dyno'd per the written rules. Even did on Wednesday... Then the rules are changed at a drivers meeting before the big race.

 

Sadly, it seems Greg's unintentional oversight of a temp sensor location was the cause of the questionable numbers. I'm sure it won't be an issue next time he is out, but from Todd's write up, it sounds like the AI dyno process rules were not followed initially, regardless of the sun on the temp sensor.

 

Overall, nationals went great (except for our engine issues). I appreciate all the hard work the volunteer officials have contributed to make the event successful. We could have done without the frustrations of mis-interpreted rules or seemingly arbitrary rules changes that could effect championship outcomes.

 

j

[tacovini]

OK...here's the deal.

 

1st...Wow...I was off the boards for a few days to continue unpacking moving boxes at home and it seems like the Nationals questions continue.

 

2nd...we've reviewed the Nationals results upwards, downwards and every which way we could. I took the time after the race (as the haulers all pulled out of the event) and made a decision at the dyno. (That extra time was to analyze all the results, not to figure out a way to pass everyone as some have suggested.) The results were questioned and reviewed with the national office both at the track and afterward. Additional Q&As with people involved continued. Dyno sheets & weight logs were provided to the executive directors at NASA HQ for a triple check. The results are final...let's move on.

 

3rd...part of moving on...I won't be posting the dyno sheets or giving correction factors...or providing the relative humidity & temp that day, nor will we provide the date the dyno was last calibrated, etc. etc. This isn't traffic court. Bottom line is that if there was an issue/error with the dyno then all the post race dyno results would be invalid anyway and the race results would stand as they already are.

 

4th...some background/perspective....This is the very first year American Iron has had ANY dyno certification procedures in it's ruleset. It was the first thing I implemented into the rules when taking over this position. Before this year (other than last year's Championship races which I was the race director) we had zilch, nada, nothing in way of dyno procedures for AI. In a nutshell, they previously said "make 3 pulls, and take the highest." As such, I saw how different people did different things to achieve different results. Albeit small, they were different results...and we all know American Iron racing is so close that even rounding matters! So I'm with you guys. I want the same consistency and we ARE driving toward a standard procedure for all to follow so there are no questions. That dyno cert procedure is the result of many years of CMC quirks, mishaps & anomalies...by everyone following it to a "T", we will eliminate any questions and be able to say "the # is the #." For 2011, we'll again learn from glitches and in the interest of continuous improvement...we will make some changes to the procedures so that it is easier to understand and follow. Where there are unwritten rules we follow, I'll look to add them into the procedure as well (rounding to the nth decimal?) I like to think that in our first year of Dyno Certification procedures, there's still room for improvement, but we're doing pretty well.

 

5th...I heard many say "you're setting precedent...you're changing the dyno norm. What happened to "1 HP over = DQ?" My answer is that I haven't changed a bit. My stance on a firm dyno read remains. I've personally lost a championship season over a 1HP dyno DQ. I know how that feels. I've personally DQ'd racers at Nationals (and regionally, right Glenn?) over the last 5 years for being 1 HP over. Nothing has changed. In those cases, we had a scenario where "one of these things doesn't look like the others"....and the DQ result was a quick & easy decision. There was no doubt. This year's Nationals, was a different case where "all of these are consistently off by the same amount"...with doubt, we required a bit more judgement than a simple "DQ & move on". I would hope officials would do the same if we found scales that consistently read 25-50 lbs less on all cars than they did earlier in the day. (Different story when 1 car comes across 25lbs light while all the others are spot on.) To those who subscribe to the conspiracy theory that the top 3 all agreed to up their power together...very doubtful, and our first hand knowledge of the cars on the rollers the day prior, the sealed engines, etc. etc. lent more creedance to them.

 

6th...with the first 5, I agreed with you guys....Need a conclusion, need to move on, need consistency, need no grey areas, need to follow procedures). However, the next 2 items is where I disagree with some of the comments made.

a) Driver meeting changes. While we try to minimize ANY changes for obvious reasons, please go back and read CCR 2.12 Officials / Rules Hierarchy which states....

This section is intended to clarify hierarchy among some officials and rules. Where there

is a conflict, the following order should be used. Each item on this list supersedes the

prior listed item whenever there is a conflict:

• Club Codes and Regulations

• Class Rules

• Local or Event Supplemental Rules

• Drivers’ Meeting Information

• Orders From Officials

• Race Director

• Executive Director

• Medical Staff (with regards to patient care and their duties).

 

So while the class rules may state one thing, they very well could be superseded by supplemental event rules, driver's meeting info AND the race director. This is why we make driver meetings mandatory. I'm not advocating a lot of changes in driver's meetings, however, simply stating that driver meeting information supersedes CCR & series rules. For simplicity sake, we'll try to minimize this but the heirarchy will remain per the rules.

 

b) Rules Knowledge. Everyone's interpretation of the rules is different. ("Short Driver Meeting?") What may be clear to one person, may be different for what another person wanted to hear. Yes. I made an error on the splitter rule...and after the rules didn't reflect what I thought they said (and as national director, what I wanted) I agreed amd backed off. Half the people I polled thought the front splitter limit was the same as the rear limit...the other half knew there was no limit. Look for a tech bulletin on that soon and for 2011 we'll need to set SOME limit, such that keeps things reasonable and doesn't hurt our existing racers with 1-4" splitters. We'll do our homework on this one....but overall, if there is a difference in opinion about the rules...it's probably a different interpretation and not a lack of knowledge.

 

So....lots going on! Tons of great events coming up with Putnam Park, Watkins Glenn and Santa's Run at Road Atlanta all proving to have double digit American Iron fields of cars! The series is getting bigger and better and I'm sure there will be other areas we'll need to improve in the future. (FYI...I've committed to HQ that I will make it out to your regional events later this year and in 2011 to try to promote consistency among the regions so that at Nationals we're all doing it the same way. I hope to be at Road Atlanta in December and Santa will bring new windshield banners to all the girls and boys who have been good all year. Ho Ho Ho!

 

We'll keep after it and keep the American Iron Racing safe, fun & fair for all!!!

 

-=- Todd Covini

[D Algozine]

I suppose the risk is that nearly everyone will interpret the data differently, which can lead to a more issues. At the very least, every regional directior should be given the info and data and have it explained thorughly.

 

Yup , agreed totally Dave

 

to bad you didn't make it ,all in all it was a lot of fun. How is the new car ? any luck selling the mustang ?

 

Mustang is out the door. It will be down to the wire on having the new Camaro at Putnam and ready to race.

[GEORGEWINKLER]

Todd,

 

American iron rules changed daily at the championships! Even the standing start flag start changed from normal NASA standing start rules and what was said at the drivers meeting.

If our home region was run this way there would not be competiters to go to the nationals.

 

As a director, competitors expect clear and consitant rules and not to have games played.

 

Also just because NASA could not fill the fields it's no excuse to penalize competers who played by the rules!THERE IS NO EXCUSE LETTING CARS RUN IN AMERICAN IRON THAT DID NOT EVEN RUN THE QUALIFING RACES FOR THAT CLASS.

 

G

[Tommy55]

And How many races did they (Cars and Drivers) run throughout the year and what kind of NASA log book do they have. I am not bitter, i know it sounds like it. I just want to know what to expect for future events. Can i run a new car for nationals and have a log book created there, or does the car and driver have to run the 5 races to qualify for nationals?

[ianacole]

And How many races did they (Cars and Drivers) run throughout the year and what kind of NASA log book do they have. I am not bitter, i know it sounds like it. I just want to know what to expect for future events. Can i run a new car for nationals and have a log book created there, or does the car and driver have to run the 5 races to qualify for nationals?

 

Tommy,

 

From the Nationals Supplement (http://www.nasaproracing.com/racing/national/NationalsRegulations_2010_10.pdf)

 

1) Race class competitors must start and score points in five main races in a NASA recognized class. Any number of races in any class and any region will qualify as credit...

2) Drivers may participate in any racing class at the Championships, regardless of which class(s) they run to qualify.

[Al F.]

Very good points about there not even being a dyno procedure in the past. The current one isnt perfect, but its much better than nothing and will be better next year after a couple of tweaks. Thanks Todd.

 

Almost the exact same thing happened in CMC2 and in FFR: a car was put on the dyno and the first pulls were over. We took a step back, validated all of the variables that could be validated as per the procedure (tire pressures, correction factor on the PC, water temp, etc.) and made more pulls. In both cases the cars ended up being over still and the drivers were DQd. Interstingly enough though, neither the CMC nor the FFR forums are awash with folks thinking that anything happened other than ensuring the numbers were as accurate as possible prior to DQing someone. We'd do the same thing if someone came up heavy on scales; roll them off and on again, turn them around, etc.

 

I think Todd has gone beyond the call of duty to explain so that everyone can understand what happened. Lets move on.

[Tommy55]

Thanks Ian. That clears up a lot for me. I just didn't know how all that worked.

 

Al, I agree with you to a certain extent. Weight is one thing. you are over or your not. We do need to clarify dyno procedures a little better for everyone. Just to make it simpler in the future. We have all winter to figure out how to fix it so it is mo better

[T&A Racing]

Al

 

You make a great point about how other classes are different and respond differently than Ai. I think this should be given a great deal of thought and attempt to discover why that would be, maybe AI racers are more completive, or just more trouble makers, or maybe it could be some other variable that is unique to the AI national event, since the region boards don't seemed to be full of unhappy racers.

 

Something has to change.

[Tommy55]

I really don't think we are unhappy or difficult or trouble makers. I think we have a really good base of a class and want to keep it that way. we need to reel it back in a little bit and take a look at what we have. We have a really competitive series that hasn't needed a big checkbook to be competitive. That's what makes AI so attractive. We just need to stick by the rules we have and make them very clear with no room for loopholes ( I know that's almost impossible.) What makes AI so great? A pretty basic set of rules and a bunch of great guys that want to go out and race. We take pride in what we accomplish as drivers and car builders. A lot of us don't have the big check books to have a factory ride or a custom built car. most of us are working in the garage engineering a car after work to go race once a month. It is a grassroots series and a amateur series. Lets try and keep it that way. Clarify the rules and don't change them. They are fine the way they are with a few exceptions

[Al F.]

I dont think AI drivers are any more or less competitive, nor any more or less troublesome...well, aside from Tommy anyway

[T&A Racing]

I dont think AI drivers are any more or less competitive, nor any more or less troublesome...well, aside from Tommy anyway

 

 

Yea, I don't think either, so I am sure you know what I am getting at, it is time to change the leadership for the national event, too many mistakes, misquoting the rules, changes to the rules on the fly it's just too much added frustration not in the other classes, even by your own comments.

 

I may one of the few who is vocal in a public forum, but am very sure I am not alone, that believes something has to change, and it's not the rules.