Joshua Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 A new design Miata air dam nears production, and I wanted to get confirmation on points before ordering one. It looks to me like a standard front fascia replacement / air dam (+3). I'm particularly interested in Greg's interpretation, and wanted to post here for all of our education. I'm already taking +3 points for the marginally effective MazdaSpeed front lip, and this looks like it would actually provide noticeable benefit. Here's a link to a pre-production prototype. http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.php?p=4996159&postcount=469 Versions for the NB1 ('99-'00) Miata will be made first, followed by ones for the NA ('90-97), and then the NB2s ('01-'05). They will be sold through 949 Racing, and they already have it up on their website. http://949racing.com/SuperMiata-air-dam-NB1.aspx . According to their documentation it "does not project beyond forward most point of OEM bumper and has no splitter built in". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I'd be curious if that also gets dinged for canard points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken o Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Looks like an Amish Miata. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 This thread will be meaningless until it gets to 30 pages. Wake me when it gets to 29...lol Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 My hope is for a meaningful and reasonable discussion about this new product for the benefit of all of us who run Miatas in TT. My wife says I'm an optimist ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboShortBus Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 My hope is for a meaningful and reasonable discussion about this new product for the benefit of all of us who run Miatas in TT. My wife says I'm an optimist ... Check the S2000 hardtop thread as painful proof that The Mrs. is correct... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
949Racing Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) My hope is for a meaningful and reasonable discussion about this new product for the benefit of all of us who run Miatas in TT. My wife says I'm an optimist ... Check the S2000 hardtop thread as painful proof that The Mrs. is correct... Mark In all seriousness, this should be cut and dried. Is there anything resembling a canard or splitter in the shape? I studiously avoiding a concave face so as to avoid any confusion with a splitter. A splitter is a flat plate but many will confuse a concave front spoiler with a true splitter. Notice this face is convex. A canard can function as a vortex inducer to add energy to stagnant boundary layer mass near the side of the car to reduce drag. More commonly, they are simple wings with steep angles of attack to develop downforce and also force more air over the hood and into the windshield and rear wing, thus raising overall downforce. The sides of our airdam are horizontally flared only, no vertical slope is built in. Again, to purposely avoid any confusion with a canard or "dive plane". It would have been easy to build in an under tray, splitter, canards, dive planes, F1 winglets, ducts, turbo noisemakers.. We chose not to and hope NASA is able to identify that. Edited March 22, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obzezzed350 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Doesnt look like canard points to me...nowhere near the shape of the S2000 CR fascia which IIRC, takes canards points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 perhaps a few shots from different angles would help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 That seems to go beyond what I would consider an "air dam". Let's go through one possible interpretation of the rules..... 1) Add, replace, or modify front fascia or air dam +3 (except as provided for in I.c.3), I.f.3),I.h.14) of the No-Points Modification list) (note: Additional points must be assessed below for any component of the added/replaced/modified fascia or air dam that performs the functions listed in G.2) and G.4) below) OK. "1" says that you can modify the air dam AND fascia for your three points. That modification looks fine so far. 2) Add, replace or modify a single front splitter/spoiler/wing/foil +3 (note: This part mayextend horizontally past the side of the vehicle no greater than five inches. If any portion of this part that protrudes from the side of vehicle is not parallel to the ground, then additional points must be assessed for canards in G.4) below.)(note: No material or part may extend the vertical reach of the OEM front fascia without taking fascia modification points above.) There's no splitter here and the lower front appears to be covered by the OEM fascia so it looks OK here. 4) Add or modify canards/winglets (includes portions of an added/modified/replaced fasciathat provide a downward force other than that listed in G.2) above) +2 Now here is when this modification may run into trouble. Does this modification increase downward force at speed over and above what a simple chin spoiler would provide? If it does then it "provides downward force" and this rule does "include portions of a modified/replaced fascia". In other words, if you change the fascia and it provides downward force then it is legislated to function as a wing no matter what it looks like.... in my interpretation of the rules. So, if someone were to protest this fascia modification on the grounds that it provides down force, who has the burden of proof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
949Racing Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 perhaps a few shots from different angles would help Greg has all the images and specifications. Hopefully, we can simply homologate the design and be done with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Amish Miata... now that's funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 perhaps a few shots from different angles would help Greg has all the images and specifications. Hopefully, we can simply homologate the design and be done with it. that's not a bad idea at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 So I guess we're going to bypass rules creep and just light the fuse on the rocket, then? (the theme continues) Not only do we now have unlimited engines to compete with, now we have to develop an aero package that doesnt' look like an aero package as well? I tried to say it nice but according to the rules, if the beard on that car produces downforce it's not legal according to what is written in the PT rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 air dam - noun 1. spoiler mounted at the front of an automobile to reduce air flow on the underside of the chassis to increase stability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Did you know that if you use duct tape to close factory radiator inlets then you have to take points for a fascia modification? Duct tape >>>> Da Beard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Scott, Just to understand properly. Your concern is that the beard has an angle/rake instead of vertical correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Scott, Just to understand properly. Your concern is that the beard has an angle/rake instead of vertical correct? I'm concerned for the rules more so than I am concerned with this individual part or any slope/angle/appearance of said part. I agree with the definition of the air dam that you posted...."underside of the chassis". Now I see an "air dam" that wraps up and into the fascia on that Miata. It has the appearance of something that could create downforce (which you can't do with an additional points assessment). Also, the way the beard juts forward, you could extend a legal belly pan all the way out there and it would probably function as a poor man's splitter....without the points assessment. It also has the potential to help reduce drag around the tires. I'm no Miata expert but I have talked with people that insist that Spec Miatas have been proven to go slower on 225 tires than they do on 205 tires (I do not have a citation for this). This effect has been attributed to drag. This Beard Dam will allow a larger tire that will be out of the air flow thus having the potential to reduce drag. This point may not be as salient as the downforce issue because fender flares are legal and you could cover the wheels with those in PT. Still, if this part provides a "free" aerodynamic advantage then it puts the rest of us scrambling to come up with something to match it. That is the definition of rules creep and that is my primary concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra4B Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Rules creep? Last I checked the whole point of racing is to push the rules.... if it doesn't say you can't, then you can. You'd be stupid not to push the limit if you have the time/resources to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpkrcn1 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Now here is when this modification may run into trouble. Does this modification increase downward force at speed over and above what a simple chin spoiler would provide? If it does then it "provides downward force" and this rule does "include portions of a modified/replaced fascia". In other words, if you change the fascia and it provides downward force then it is legislated to function as a wing no matter what it looks like.... in my interpretation of the rules. So, if someone were to protest this fascia modification on the grounds that it provides down force, who has the burden of proof? In theory- Anything you hang off the front weather it is vertical or sloped is going to increase downforce. The absence of air flow under the car creates a "vacuum" (actually it is just lower air pressure). If the pressure on top remains the same and the pressure underneath drops, you have downforce. Personally I think this spoiler/air dam/ fascia should be +3. It is not radical enough to take an extra 2 for increased downforce. Rules creep- I understand your concern. However racers are going to push the envelope. Part of the problem is one rule set is being used for 2 different purposes. The idea behind TT is you can take your daily driver show up at the track and compete with your friends and drive home. Most people are not going to build front ends with splitters to the bottom wheel. The car would not be drivable on the streets without tearing it off on every speed bump. A racer will build it. Take it off to load on the trailer and then reinstall it at the track. The racer will maximize the rules to the best of their ability to have the most competitive car. 30+ page hardtop threads occur because of this difference in philosophies. Guys in their DD don't understand why a racer would cut apart a perfectly good car to change the roofline to increase air flow to a rear wing. Greg has done a great job clarifying and revising the rules to try and limit creep. The only way to address your concern of "rules creep" on this part is to give front end "aero parts" specs. I.E Your air dam must be vertical within 2 degrees. The vertical plane may not be taller than x inches. Now you have a rule that is very specific and it's intent cannot be misinterpreted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrew8991 Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 The only way to address your concern of "rules creep" on this part is to give front end "aero parts" specs. I.E Your air dam must be vertical within 2 degrees. The vertical plane may not be taller than x inches. Now you have a rule that is very specific and it's intent cannot be misinterpreted. that would also give us a rule that would be easier to enforce trackside how do I know if something increases downforce or not? define signifigant..? etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Then you've missed the point, Brian. "Push the rules"? What the heck is that? How many people have ever said to you that they started racing so that they could "push the rules". I haven't heard that one in 15 years of motorsports.... and I've talked to a LOT of people. The point of racing is to have fun. The rules are simply there so that everyone can compete fairly. I know people that have gone into other series because they think that the PT rules are a moving target...and they are right. One of the ways people have fun is maintaining competitiveness without have to go through new development every year. Oh, and another thing the rules specifically state that "If the don't say that you can then you can't". You've got it backwards. Anyway, sorry for feeding the troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdracer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 In theory- Anything you hang off the front weather it is vertical or sloped is going to increase downforce. The absence of air flow under the car creates a "vacuum" (actually it is just lower air pressure). If the pressure on top remains the same and the pressure underneath drops, you have downforce. Personally I think this spoiler/air dam/ fascia should be +3. It is not radical enough to take an extra 2 for increased downforce. That's not what the rules say. 4) Add or modify canards/winglets (includes portions of an added/modified/replaced fascia that provide a downward force other than that listed in G.2) above) +2 If the fascia modification provides downforce then it's +2. That's how I see it. Am I reading it wrong? All I'm saying is that an air dam should be an air dam.....under the car. Plus this thing isn't an add-on it's an entirely new piece that reshapes the fascia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 The NB1 Miata ('99 & '00) has a much improved front end that better covers the wheels. I've been toying around with the idea of adding the lower section of an NB bumper to my car to get better airflow around my 225 width tires. I'll take my 3 points for that, just as I am taking 3 points for the small MazdaSpeed front lip. This new design front air dam IS added to the existing fascia, so it is not a replacement, but a much more through and effective add-on. I suggest that we wait for Greg to make his decision and then move on. BTW, I still drive my car on the street, and to the track from time to time when my wife is using our truck. Most TT cars down here are still used on the street, but some are not, and see no reason why it should matter one way or another. If I were to add this new air dam, I'd attach it in such a way to make it easily removable, both for the off track excursions that may occur, and to negotiate trailer ramps and speed bumps more easily. FWIW, here are a couple of alternative Miata air dam designs from ISC Racing: http://www.iscracing.net/miata_fiberglass.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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