Boss 302 in TTB

[jacob300zx]

Looking at this...

 

In the event that a specialty or upgraded version of a vehicle, that is individually listed in 6.3.2

Base Classifications, has had so many of it’s “specialty” parts replaced or modified that a points

assessment results in a situation where a hypothetical lower base classed “standard” model can

be upgraded to be identical to it, but end up in a lower competition class, the specialty or

upgraded version vehicle may be granted a waiver to “jump down” to the standard model’s base

class. Then, it must be assessed points for all of its features that differ from the standard model.

This will also require a specific evaluation and approval by the National TT Director. For

example, a ’96 Mustang Cobra has a TTC base class. The owner replaces every part on the car

that distinguishes it from the Mustang GT, except for the wing and sway bars (valued at +6

total). After adding up all of the modification points, the car is now in TTA for competition.

However, a theoretical ’96 Mustang GT (TTE*) has the exact same modifications as our ’96

Cobra, making the two vehicles identical except for the wing and swaybars, but it ends up in

TTB with 8 points to spare before it would jump up to TTA. To ensure fairness for the Cobra

owner (who was essentially getting assessed twice for many of its specialty parts), we allow the

- 35 -

Cobra to jump down to the GT’s base class, and after adding up all of its modification points, it

ends up in TTB with 2 points to spare before it would jump up to TTA—i.e. parity between the

two cars.

 

Here are the differences compared to a base model mustang

 

 

Base TTB/ Boss TTA* / points

414hp390tq / 440hp/380tq / ?

intake manifold/ boss intake / 3

stock head/ ported/ 6

stock exhaust/ side dumps/ 2

rev limit 7k/ 7.5k flashed ecu/ none

limited slip dif/ torsen diff/ 1

base brakes/ brembo/ 2

base front bumper/ splitter/ 3

base rear bumper/ diffuser/ 2

base spoiler/ same/ none

base springs/ higher rated springs/ 2

base shock/ tokico single adj/ 3

base sway/ bigger sways/ 2

base wheels/tires?/ 19x9/19/9.5 255/285/ 4

base 3.31 gear/ 3.73/ none

base clutch/ race clutch/ none

alum radiator/ none

oil cooler/ none

strut tower bar/ none?

 

 

So another words the Boss got almost full points for every mod over the base Mustang. Looks like it got 30 points total over a stock Mustang GT. The tiny splitter and diffuser are almost non functional and not worth the combined 5 points. The 285 rear tires are also not worth the 4 points they got. The only change to the sways was the rear bar gained 1mm, not worth 2 points. That 26 crank hp cost 11 points. So what would be the optimal way to modify this car?

 

Put on stock lower front reat bumper, run 265 tires, stock rear sway and get rid of 11 points, to run in TTB with 265 Hankook RS3's? Also get rid of the side dumps and run 255 R6's?

[jimbow]

You are thinking about it wrong.

 

Base Mustang = base Mustang class add points for ANY changes over base.

Watch weight and hp to weight ratio

 

Boss 302 = NEW base class.

Change the sway bar then you are adding points

Remove the splitter and difuser add points, etc.

You can change tire width to get back points.

Watch hp to weight ratio

[kbrew8991]

Wrong Jimbow - go reread the section he quoted

 

Jake - You could claim the normal Mustang GT base class and then add points for all the different stuff just like you're thinking. Don't know how far ahead you're going to be though, depends on how much crap you're willing to take off the Boss for normal GT parts. What's best - dunno

[Greg G.]

Also not quite right...

"This will also require a specific evaluation and approval by the National TT Director"

 

And, it isn't going to happen. It has been base classed, and that is it.

[obzezzed350]

400+ hp and you want to run TTB? Come on...step it up and run TTA.

[2bars]

400+ hp and you want to run TTB? Come on...step it up and run TTA.

 

400hp? so is a mustank gt and it's in ttb. there's also an e46 in ttb thats 7 seconds faster on a high speed 2.9 mi. track and it's not the driver. why don't you run tts, you know, step it up?

btw, was the cobra in the nasa rule book example NOT base classed?

[jason]

So another words the Boss got almost full points for every mod over the base Mustang.

I have to take full points for every mod I do regardless of its effectiveness.

[obzezzed350]

400+ hp and you want to run TTB? Come on...step it up and run TTA.

 

400hp? so is a mustank gt and it's in ttb. there's also an e46 in ttb thats 7 seconds faster on a high speed 2.9 mi. track and it's not the driver. why don't you run tts, you know, step it up?

btw, was the cobra in the nasa rule book example NOT base classed?

 

Look at the list of mods it has that the standard mustang does not have. +1 on what Jason said..

 

I drive a 350Z with 310whp in PTA, a car with a baseclass of PTC, I think I have stepped it up enough.

[TurboShortBus]

Let's not forget about Appendix C in the TT rules. Greg's comment notwithstanding, it would be tough for this car to meet the 10.25:1 adjusted weight/power ratio for TTB without weighing nearly 3900 lbs or running 245mm tires.

 

Mark

[kbrew8991]

400+ hp and you want to run TTB? Come on...step it up and run TTA.

 

400hp? so is a mustank gt and it's in ttb. there's also an e46 in ttb thats 7 seconds faster on a high speed 2.9 mi. track and it's not the driver. why don't you run tts, you know, step it up?

btw, was the cobra in the nasa rule book example NOT base classed?

 

No offense intended, but Ken O is an alien. Its the only explanation (well, that and car prep to the ruleset)

 

That said how would tech be able to tell the difference between a Mustang GT with Boss 302 parts on it and this Boss 302? Same with S2000 and S2000 CR, etc, etc...? Are we to decode VIN numbers and such?

 

One last data point - at Cresson on the small track I took out Laura's new RX8 R3 and was turning laps barley faster than my TTF/PTF has turned there. Does that mean its base classing is wrong? No. It means I need to spend the same amount of effort preparing it to the ruleset as I did my MR2. If you're rolling something off the dealer lot and running against a car that has been tweaked and modified to the limits of the ruleset you will pretty likely be fighting a bit of an uphill battle.

[drivinhardz06]

If you're rolling something off the dealer lot and running against a car that has been tweaked and modified to the limits of the ruleset you will pretty likely be fighting a bit of an uphill battle.

 

I agree. There is a massive amount of speed in the free mods and rules limit. On the same car, we are talking many many seconds a lap. IOW, another zip code

[kbrew8991]

If you're rolling something off the dealer lot and running against a car that has been tweaked and modified to the limits of the ruleset you will pretty likely be fighting a bit of an uphill battle.

 

I agree. There is a massive amount of speed in the free mods and rules limit. On the same car, we are talking many many seconds a lap. IOW, another zip code

 

and this is coming from the group of guys that set the TTA record at Road Atlanta to a point where I thought for sure it'd be unbreakable - and then they keep lowering it every event after that

[jacob300zx]

400+ hp and you want to run TTB? Come on...step it up and run TTA.

 

That said how would tech be able to tell the difference between a Mustang GT with Boss 302 parts on it and this Boss 302? Same with S2000 and S2000 CR, etc, etc...? Are we to decode VIN numbers and such?

 

 

That makes no sense. All the parts on the Boss are available through Ford racing. In fact they were available before the car launched. Yes, there are probably people running Boss parts on thier Mustang GT. How do you know if anyboady is claiming the correct amount of parts? You don't unless you feel the other guy is dishonest, start your research, form a protest. I'd like to hear Greg expand on his no decision. I'm pretty sure you couldn't get any closer to the example in the rule book than my situation.

 

The key word in the bolded txt of the first post is parity. As it stands right now I can build a Boss killer with the same points hit the Boss took over the base Mustang. The whole point of base classing a special model is to assess the modification the "factory" made over stock and give them a fair bump in the points system based on the "factory" installed parts. What Greg did was take every part and max it out on points, or close. Which is his call, but don't tell me I can't run as a Mustang GT and count points as if the car started as a Mustang GT. Thus creating the situation we are in now where the Boss is base classed too high compared to a base GT, making it worth it to take parts off the car and count others at full points.

 

Also not quite right...

"This will also require a specific evaluation and approval by the National TT Director"

 

And, it isn't going to happen. It has been base classed, and that is it.

 

Greg can you please explain how this isn't the situation that is stated in the first post copied from the rules?

Edited May 24, 2011 by Guest

[drivinhardz06]

and this is coming from the group of guys that set the TTA record at Road Atlanta to a point where I thought for sure it'd be unbreakable - and then they keep lowering it every event after that

 

still more to come there and at VIR

 

Jason did a record 1:36 in like June '09, I shrugged my shoulders and told his wife that was it, nobody would ever go faster (I was serious)

[wlfpkrcn1]

 

 

So another words the Boss got almost full points for every mod over the base Mustang. Looks like it got 30 points total over a stock Mustang GT. The tiny splitter and diffuser are almost non functional and not worth the combined 5 points. The 285 rear tires are also not worth the 4 points they got. The only change to the sways was the rear bar gained 1mm, not worth 2 points. That 26 crank hp cost 11 points. So what would be the optimal way to modify this car?

 

Put on stock lower front reat bumper, run 265 tires, stock rear sway and get rid of 11 points, to run in TTB with 265 Hankook RS3's? Also get rid of the side dumps and run 255 R6's?

 

It always cracks me up that parts aren't worth their point assesment. Weather it is a factory part that is different than base or an AM part.

 

I'm sure all those thing that are worth nothing is just money Ford wanted to spend for no real gain in performance.

 

This car has a base class. Live with it. Every frog....

[Cobra4B]

still more to come there and at VIR

Bring it Cupcake

[kbrew8991]

This car has a base class. Live with it. Every frog....

While I do agree with you that non-base parts do need assessed, lest we all have to go out and chase special edition cars to remain competitive, in this case I think we're leaning too far the other way and assessing them at far to great a value.

 

I'd love to find a way for us to reliably and consistently assess these special edition cars such that they are at neither a disadvantage (ie this case, and many others similar to it) or at an advantage either.

[Cobra4B]

This car has a base class. Live with it. Every frog....

While I do agree with you that non-base parts do need assessed, lest we all have to go out and chase special edition cars to remain competitive, in this case I think we're leaning too far the other way and assessing them at far to great a value.

 

I'd love to find a way for us to reliably and consistently assess these special edition cars such that they are at neither a disadvantage (ie this case, and many others similar to it) or at an advantage either.

Why not treat it as the base car plus all the mods i.e. KISS? I mean if the spoiler and splitter sucks, but you've already been docked the points for them then you're free to put fancy racecar parts on there w/o taking more points right?

 

The way I read it I agree with the OP... but I may be reading it wrong. I could take a base 5.0 and mod it all up and still be ahead of the BOSS which is rated at TTA* right?

 

Just looking at the car on paper I don't see it as equal to a C5Z06 stock for stock which is TTA* so maybe it should be TTA. It may have a great motor, but it's a fat piggie.

[jacob300zx]

 

 

So another words the Boss got almost full points for every mod over the base Mustang. Looks like it got 30 points total over a stock Mustang GT. The tiny splitter and diffuser are almost non functional and not worth the combined 5 points. The 285 rear tires are also not worth the 4 points they got. The only change to the sways was the rear bar gained 1mm, not worth 2 points. That 26 crank hp cost 11 points. So what would be the optimal way to modify this car?

 

Put on stock lower front reat bumper, run 265 tires, stock rear sway and get rid of 11 points, to run in TTB with 265 Hankook RS3's? Also get rid of the side dumps and run 255 R6's?

 

It always cracks me up that parts aren't worth their point assesment. Weather it is a factory part that is different than base or an AM part.

 

I'm sure all those thing that are worth nothing is just money Ford wanted to spend for no real gain in performance.

 

This car has a base class. Live with it. Every frog....

 

I think your missing the point and trolling threads as usual. I'm not saying they are worth nothing, I'm say the part isn't maxed to the rules, which is why I would gladly take it off the car.

[kbrew8991]

Being allowed to claim a different base class / car and de-mod to that level (or take points for what's different) is one way to do it, not one I'd like to see become the norm as it would suck to have to ask people to de-mod their brand new special edition cars and that isn't the most newbie-friendly thing to do - but it does lead to parity at least which in the end is good.

 

Another way would be to reevaluate the base class given to a special edition car that seems out of whack. On the surface the differences in the GT and Boss302 don't seem to add up, but of course we may not have the full picture either. I've been wrong many a time so who knows...

[wlfpkrcn1]

 

I think your missing the point and trolling threads as usual. I'm not saying they are worth nothing, I'm say the part isn't maxed to the rules, which is why I would gladly take it off the car.

 

 

I understood the point. I think you should start with a base class Mustang if you think the Boss is not classed properly. If you start with the Boss, take your lumps and deal with it. Luckily trolling is 0 points!

[kbrew8991]

 

I think your missing the point and trolling threads as usual. I'm not saying they are worth nothing, I'm say the part isn't maxed to the rules, which is why I would gladly take it off the car.

 

 

I understood the point. I think you should start with a base class Mustang if you think the Boss is not classed properly. If you start with the Boss, take your lumps and deal with it. Luckily trolling is 0 points!

 

You missed the part where Greg forbid him from doing so.

[wlfpkrcn1]

I meant he should purchase a base Mustang and build it from there. Not take a Boss and make it into a base and start from there

 

Edited May 24, 2011 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

I meant he should purchase a base Mustang and build it from there. Not take a Boss and make it into a base and start from there

does that mean you'll pick up the difference for him?

 

Easy for you to say.

 

It also wouldn't be hard to either a.) allow him to do so or b.) reevaluate the Boss 302 base class to be certain it makes sense and is correct

[wlfpkrcn1]

He has never mentioned owning the Boss. Only the differences between it and base

 

It was very easy for me to say

 

Both would be up to Greg. He would have to dyno class even if Greg allowed the build down