New to NASA looking for guidance

[promo]

I would like to start endurance and time trials.

 

The car is pretty stock at the moment. I'd like to know what i'm getting into before I move forward with it.

Car is a 2008 Tiburon GT

mods are pretty basic.. I/H/E tuned on an AEM F/IC unit. MS2 on the way.

HSD coilovers, 10kgs front and 8kgs rear. UR rear sway bar, VPW endlinks. I'm waiting on a set of LCA's. Front and rear, fully adjustable, and a few other little things, like bushings.

Brembo BBK w/ XP10's and a set of Hoosier R6's.

The "cooling" portion is pretty much done. Trans, oil, and larger rad.

Everything from the LIM to the TB has been ported.

 

I say the car is relatively stock because it still has an auto trans, and still has a stockish engine.

I have a 6-spd being prepped for a rebuild.. few more things in plan.

 

Question is, should I stay N/A or go twin turbo.

 

What are the restrictions for time attack/endurance?

Would going F/I put me into a class that would be less than optimal?

A few race tibs are making 250-280whp N/A Stock displacement. The heads and cams were about 4k though..

My plan was to either twin turbo or GT30r. Aiming for 300-350whp, stock 6-spd (it'll handle the power) with a quaife LSD

Would that put me at a disadvantage?

Car's weight is 2,900lbs btw. If I had to guess what my output is at the moment with my current modifications, it wouldn't be over 180whp.

 

I'm still relatively new to tracking the car. I've been to 10+ OTD's. I was never really interested in time attack and enduro racing until I started measuring myself with other cars on the track, I was at waterford hills raceway on Monday and was putting down between 1:18 and 1:20. That's a huge gap, I don't have a lap timer. I just go off of cars that i've passed on the track and estimate using their lap times. lol

 

Any advice would be appreciated, but please don't tell me to ditch the platform.

 

Quick pic..

[getfast]

Welcome. NASA does offer an excellent Time Trial (not the same format as "time attack") program across the country. As for endurance racing, that is offered as well, dependent upon the region of course.

 

Regarding car prep and classing, check out the rulebooks. For a TT car it'll just need to pass HPDE tech. For endurance racing it will need to have a racing logbook and all that associated safety equipment for car and driver. Read up on these things at http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules , especially the CCR which is the first link there.

 

Have you done any actual HPDE's (instructor in car, classroom, graduated passing, etc) or just "OTD" events? Generally speaking with NASA you will need to 'climb the HPDE ladder' and get a check ride to be allowed to TT. Equivalent experience from other groups/events is considered on a case by case basis. Beyond that you'll need a legal (not necessarily competitive) racecar and a comp license - which you get at a comp licensing school in your region - to go endurance racing.

 

Your nearest regional director would be an excellent person to ask about all this stuff and more.

 

Hope it helps...

[promo]

Welcome. NASA does offer an excellent Time Trial (not the same format as "time attack") program across the country. As for endurance racing, that is offered as well, dependent upon the region of course.

 

Regarding car prep and classing, check out the rulebooks. For a TT car it'll just need to pass HPDE tech. For endurance racing it will need to have a racing logbook and all that associated safety equipment for car and driver. Read up on these things at http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules , especially the CCR which is the first link there.

 

Have you done any actual HPDE's (instructor in car, classroom, graduated passing, etc) or just "OTD" events? Generally speaking with NASA you will need to 'climb the HPDE ladder' and get a check ride to be allowed to TT. Equivalent experience from other groups/events is considered on a case by case basis. Beyond that you'll need a legal (not necessarily competitive) racecar and a comp license - which you get at a comp licensing school in your region - to go endurance racing.

 

Your nearest regional director would be an excellent person to ask about all this stuff and more.

 

Hope it helps...

 

 

For enduro..

I'd need a full weld in roll cage, an FIA certified seat (my Brides are not, it's a DD/weekend track car, so knockoffs were fine at the time), I have a Snell 2010 helmet, but still need a suit. Do I need a hans device?

 

I'm not ready for either.. the car's extremely underpowered, 180whp? and 2,900-3k lbs.

I have some things to take care of first before I can consider TT or Enduro.

[getfast]

For enduro..

I'd need a full weld in roll cage, an FIA certified seat (my Brides are not, it's a DD/weekend track car, so knockoffs were fine at the time), I have a Snell 2010 helmet, but still need a suit. Do I need a hans device?

 

See http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf section 15.

[kbrew8991]

there's classes for all kinds of speeds of car

 

180whp and 3,000lbs isn't that slow either really, I know RX8 make & weigh in that neighborhood and those cars will turn some great times and are pretty competitive in "D", and there are at least 2 classes below that

[cool hand luke]

I'd get started with the HDPE and hold off making any decisions to mod the car.

 

With 300 hp, you are going to be up in ttb area . Take a look at what you would be running against. I'm not sure how competitive you'd be. I'd spend money on as many track days as you can, and then get a better feel for what's the best way to proceed.

 

Right now you probably have a machine that can perform better than you can drive!

[promo]

I'd get started with the HDPE and hold off making any decisions to mod the car.

 

With 300 hp, you are going to be up in ttb area . Take a look at what you would be running against. I'm not sure how competitive you'd be. I'd spend money on as many track days as you can, and then get a better feel for what's the best way to proceed.

 

Right now you probably have a machine that can perform better than you can drive!

 

 

After some long and hard thinking, here's my outlook

-Dual major in ME and ISM

-Move to HPDE4, then

-Obtain NASA competitive racing license

-Obtain a job in automotive development and testing. Living in Detroit within 50 miles of 50+ companies that develop and test products for the big 3 and then some.

 

THEN think about getting a better RACE car.

A racing license, engineering and computer background, ability to work on cars and being 20 years old seems to be a pretty potent combination.

 

I might try ST2 after I get my license. Even if I come in last, I can still say I raced my car competitively.

We'll see how things go. I'm pretty sure I won't be selling this car anytime soon. It's way too much fun on a road course, it's especially interesting to see people's reactions as they see a Hyundai closing up on them from the rear view. I get a lot of WTF looks.

[kbrew8991]

I would highly recommend a mid-level PT class instead of $T if you're starting out.

[promo]

I would highly recommend a mid-level PT class instead of $T if you're starting out.

 

I've spent a good 6 hours reading through all the NASA guides and classes, but i'm still lost as far as how many classes and how many rules there are..

I'm still reading through all the classes, reading touring series now. lol

[kbrew8991]

I can save you a bit of legwork in that your car doesn't fit any of the "Spec" classes, nor does it fit GTS, American Iorn, CMC, and so on.

 

It does fit into Time Trials (TT), Performance Touring (PT), and Super Touring (ST).

 

TTA-F match PTA-F, ST2 & ST1 match TTS and TTU respectively, and TTR and SU match car-classing wise. Competition format does differ however - TT is against the clock where PT & ST are racing series.

 

TT is a good place to play whether its where you end up staying, or if you move on to racing, or even if you do both. That against-the-clock format vs rubbing fenders format is it's own unique thrill

 

PT is a bit more limited ruleset in the sense that yes, you can in theory do any modification you want but however you'll always be limited by the amount of mod points your car has to spend to stay in your desired class and also be limited by the adjusted hp/weight ratios for the desired class. These limits help keep modifications to reasonable levels, thus keeping the costs to run well at a reasonable level to boot.

 

ST is goverened soley by the hp/weight caps, so to stand a chance not only does the car need to be well driven, but you'll also have alot of money in suspension development, aero development, huge tires, etc, etc, etc. ST is home to quite a few speedy (and spendy) cars...

 

SU is even crazier - the only real car classing rules are that the vehicle must have 4 wheels, 4 fenders, and pass basic safety inspection

 

Visit an event and talk to some of the racers, look at their cars, etc. I'd also think about possibly running through the DE levels with the current car, possibly TT, and then really re-evaluate racing it in PT, ST, or keeping it a street car and buying a truck, trailer, and a Spec car of some flavor (Miata, 944, E30, etc).

 

I was in your shoes circa 2003 when I started volunteering with NASA - wanted to do the engineering / racer thing and move it towards being a career. It can be done (I ended up on a different path but know people that did it and that it can certainly be done) but don't beat yourself up on the timeline too bad. DE alone can be spendy, be smart about your spending and don't use credit to get there.. stick to cash. Volunteer at events to earn free track time if your region offers it. Learn anyway you can even if it's just observing the mistakes and successes of others. Use autocross to hone car control between track events. And above all else have a plan for how you're going to get to classes and/or work if you wreck or break your only car that you're tracking.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Guest

[obzezzed350]

The faster the class, the more moola! PT kind of keeps the spending down with the points system...kind of..

[kbrew8991]

Speed costs money - how fast can you afford?

 

Racing itself is fun enough for me that I don't care that I've only got 120whp and only hit 110-115mph on most tracks. Esp since by choosing a slower car I can afford to prepare it well enough to win (regionally and nationally if I drive well) and drive it often enough to stay sharp.

[promo]

I can save you a bit of legwork in that your car doesn't fit any of the "Spec" classes, nor does it fit GTS, American Iorn, CMC, and so on.

 

It does fit into Time Trials (TT), Performance Touring (PT), and Super Touring (ST).

 

TTA-F match PTA-F, ST2 & ST1 match TTS and TTU respectively, and TTR and SU match car-classing wise. Competition format does differ however - TT is against the clock where PT & ST are racing series.

 

TT is a good place to play whether its where you end up staying, or if you move on to racing, or even if you do both. That against-the-clock format vs rubbing fenders format is it's own unique thrill

 

PT is a bit more limited ruleset in the sense that yes, you can in theory do any modification you want but however you'll always be limited by the amount of mod points your car has to spend to stay in your desired class and also be limited by the adjusted hp/weight ratios for the desired class. These limits help keep modifications to reasonable levels, thus keeping the costs to run well at a reasonable level to boot.

 

ST is goverened soley by the hp/weight caps, so to stand a chance not only does the car need to be well driven, but you'll also have alot of money in suspension development, aero development, huge tires, etc, etc, etc. ST is home to quite a few speedy (and spendy) cars...

 

SU is even crazier - the only real car classing rules are that the vehicle must have 4 wheels, 4 fenders, and pass basic safety inspection

 

Visit an event and talk to some of the racers, look at their cars, etc. I'd also think about possibly running through the DE levels with the current car, possibly TT, and then really re-evaluate racing it in PT, ST, or keeping it a street car and buying a truck, trailer, and a Spec car of some flavor (Miata, 944, E30, etc).

 

 

Holy shit. Is what I thought when I was reading through the mod list for the PT class.

An output of 20% = +20 points.

Stock output for my car (General output on a loaded MD) is 130whp, and if i'm right about my car being around the 170-180whp mark on a loaded MD I ALREADY have +20 points from basic bolt ons. Not to mention all the little stuff that seriously counts against me, such as the ported TB, ported IM's, pulleys, ECU, Brembos, rear control arms, sway bars, endlinks, camber plates, inverted coilovers, full exhaust, and ofc the weight reduction that a few of my mods provided.. I lost about 10lbs per corner due to the brembos, and I lost about 8lbs per wheel due to the Kosei's and the tire I run is 30mm's larger than stock.

Good god. This is strict.

I might as well buy a first gen tib and leave it mainly stock with a few small modifications to make sure I can max it in its class. I know how to work on the tib, it's easy for me. I don't know too many other platforms and I am not willing to give it a try when I'll be the sole "mechanic" fixing it.

 

Either ways, NASA license is still in the view even if racing isn't.

Thanks for the insight, I have a shit ton MORE to think about now. LOL

[promo]

The faster the class, the more moola! PT kind of keeps the spending down with the points system...kind of..

 

 

In the sense that I've spent roughly $800 for my bolt on's, $600 for my brakes, $500 for my wheels/tires, $1,500 on my suspension and i'm like already damn near +40 points in the PT class? LOL

[kbrew8991]

It's not uncommon for people with already modified cars to re-evaluate their complete package when moving from DE to TT and beyond. You're not alone. And it's not as bad as other clubs, any mod just about is allowed but it's up to you to pick & choose the best stuff for your car to end up fitting where you want to be. It could be worse, your favorite mod could send you straight to some unlimited class... do not pass go do not collect $200.

 

Work with what you have right now in HPDE, don't mod the car any more but instead spend money on the driver & seat time instead, and really take a good close look at your car vs the classing in TT (or beyond) once you're in HPDE3 or 4 and TT and/or Racing is the next step.

[promo]

It's not uncommon for people with already modified cars to re-evaluate their complete package when moving from DE to TT and beyond. You're not alone. And it's not as bad as other clubs, any mod just about is allowed but it's up to you to pick & choose the best stuff for your car to end up fitting where you want to be. It could be worse, your favorite mod could send you straight to some unlimited class... do not pass go do not collect $200.

 

Work with what you have right now in HPDE, don't mod the car any more but instead spend money on the driver & seat time instead, and really take a good close look at your car vs the classing in TT (or beyond) once you're in HPDE3 or 4 and TT and/or Racing is the next step.

 

 

With another club, I run group 2/3 which is basically HPDE3.

I've already signed up and paid for 3 track events next season.. like..5 months in advance. LOL

I do need quite a bit more seat time, and the only mod would be fatter tires to prevent the car from understeering quite as much.

Favorite mod.. coilovers. haha

[promo]

What's the worst that could happen in ST? Can't you get flagged for contact unless it was absolutely unavoidable, right?

I'd like to give ST a try if I can't fit into PTA or PTB class after reverting a few parts back to stock.

[turbo329is]

I would definitely invest time and money into hpde's. Look through all the rules and figure out if you're car can compete in any of the classes for a reasonable amount of money. Don't worry about mods until you read the rules, and are almost ready to race. I'm not to familiar with the TT and PT or whatever classes very much but I've never seen any tiburons in the winners circle. I'm not a fan of fwd but I'll try not to hate on them to much. I think the best thing for everybody is to start out in a low hp spec class. A lot of those guys who started out with high HP never figured out how to corner or brake properly(No offense. Don't Email me it's just a fact). Get enough of you're fellow tiburon lovers to make a spec class or join one of the others. Then email your regional director. The purpose of a spec class is to make the best drivers win and not the best cars while limited the cost of racing. I would suggest you get a spec miata or a spec e30. Being an e30 fanatic I am quite biased. E30s have the amazing invention of visibility which new cars don't come with. Open classes are more about the cars than the drivers. Yes I'm only an hpde4 driver right now so the real racers have a right to protest.

[turbo329is]

What's the worst that could happen in ST? Can't you get flagged for contact unless it was absolutely unavoidable, right?

I'd like to give ST a try if I can't fit into PTA or PTB class after reverting a few parts back to stock.

 

Corner workers don't see little bumps and nudges. It's impossible to see if cars are two inches away or if they're scrapping at that distance and speed.

[turbo329is]

Amazing/stupid/amazingly stupid things can be done. I salute you with the TTB vq35 Sentra. Only an amazing driver could fly a POS at that speed, lol.

[promo]

NASA listed my car in TTF class @ 3150lbs

 

I'm not worried about modifications anymore. I just want the seat time and want to enjoy it. NASA runs gingerman and grattan for a weekend next season, i'll be joining in on that.

I've come to the realization skill isn't obtained over night, and more than anything, I need more seat time, it's never enough.

[promo]

Bit of an update.

 

Bought an E30 325 for LeMons.

Caged, 2.7L I6, yada yada..

 

 

Bought some parts for the tib

sold some parts for the tib

signed up for a few HPDE's with the tib

Decided to get off my ass, get my license, start TTE and see where that takes me.

 

Thanks for all the advice guys, looks like I'll be getting the best of both worlds. Cheap wheel to wheel and fun against the clock competition racing.

[getfast]

Excellent choice, possibly the perfect Lemons car. Not saying it'll be competitive with that driveline, but it's possible that you could end up racing that 325 with NASA

[promo]

Excellent choice, possibly the perfect Lemons car. Not saying it'll be competitive with that driveline, but it's possible that you could end up racing that 325 with NASA

 

 

Always an option. I'm undecided on what I want to do with the motor in that car. It's safe to say we won't make the first event (I'm so certain i'm driving for another team) so I might put a M20B25 motor, more power, higher revs, better reliability.. and it's cheap.

Or I could swap to an 885i head with the 2.7L shortblock and still be competitive. Either ways, we're looking for reliability over performance. It's all up in the air right now. Jumping one hurdle at a time, meaning in the progress of removing rust and caging. haha

[promo]

Couple quick questions.

 

-Brembo BBK is considered a caliper upgrade right?

-I have the car wired for a piggyback, it's currently installed but I have a bypass wire for it. Would that count against me when the unit itself is out of the car?

-

3) Non-BTM or modified/re-valved shocks/struts/dampers +3 (all others) (springs not included)

4) Changing the mounting orientation/design of the BTM shock and/or spring perch in order to invert the shocks/struts

(includes non-BTM inverted shocks/struts) +1

5) Non-BTM or modified coil springs, leaf springs/spacers/brackets, or torsion bars +2

 

I have HSD coilovers. Uses HD system dampers, and their own type of coilover spring.

Is that +3 for the dampers, +1 for the orientation? and +2 for the springs?!

 

- Increase in track width greater than four (4) inches due to non-BTM axles, control arms, brake rotors/hats, wheel spacers,

hubs, wheel offset, and/or camber adjustment +6 (measured from the inside of one tire to the outside of the opposite

tire at ground level—averaging the measurements in front of and behind the contact patch to negate the effect of toe

 

Stock rotor 11", running 13" rotors

No wheel spacers

Stock offset is +36, running +33

-2.9* of camber in the front, -1.9* in the rear

Wheel size is +1"

 

I don't take any points for those right?

 

 

 

This is what I have so far.

 

225 45 17 +1

Hankook Z214 +10

Non-OEM intake +1

Ported TB +2

Intake manifold +2

Modified Camshaft +6

Aftermarket headers +2

Catback exhaust +2

Remove cats +1

HD dampers +3

Springs +3

Rear control arms +1

Calipers +2

 

Expected output 200whp

3,000lb race weight (with driver, full tank of gas)

Competing in TTE.

 

 

I'll have to take a few things out.. but it looks like i'm +36. Not bad. I'll probably add frame bracing for that +3 to have me at the maximum +39 limitation to be able to compete in TTE.