Does this classify as an engine swap?

[bossman429]

I think the answer is yes, but I'm hoping for no.

 

Ford made a 4.6L Al engine block used in Explorers absolutely identical in all ways to the 4.6L iron block in my car save for material.

 

If I were to take all the internals and swap them over to a 4.6L AL block would that be classified as an engine swap or just weight reduction?

 

There would be no power gain, no change in compression etc etc.

 

If it were to be an engine swap, any idea how many points would be allocated for doing this?

 

The only reason I would consider this is to save 80lbs off the nose of my already nose heavy car.

 

Thanks in advance!

[STRINGER]

I cant wait to see what Greg says about this. Seems like everyone is doing dyno reclass these days to be competitive in certain classes.

[speedengineer]

Sounds like a question for Greg.

 

Even if it did count as an engine swap, they you would be doing a dyno reclass, which should show that it still has the same power output as before, thus I would assume that you'd be 'reclassed' back into the same base class as you already have. Not sure if that's how it actually works, but it makes sense to me.

[bossman429]

Sounds like a question for Greg.

 

Even if it did count as an engine swap, they you would be doing a dyno reclass, which should show that it still has the same power output as before, thus I would assume that you'd be 'reclassed' back into the same base class as you already have. Not sure if that's how it actually works, but it makes sense to me.

 

Thats what i figured, and since the power would be the same I dont see why it would make a difference...

[TurboShortBus]

You will find that the RWHP that your car makes in bone stock condition is very close to the number that Greg already uses to base class your car (1999-2004 Mustang GT). Mine is right on the money. So, if you aren't changing the power output, then a dyno reclass shouldn't change anything.

 

Of course, if you aren't doing anything to help increase its low-end power and torque while it's apart, then you aren't maximizing your effort. Also, from a durability standpoint, a piston and rod kit might not be a bad idea.

 

Note that the 1999-2004 Mustang GT 4.6L SOHC was rated at 260 hp / 302 lb-ft, while the 2002-2005 Explorer 4.6L SOHC was rated at 239 hp / 282 lb-ft, so something was different (if you were to just dunk an entire Explorer engine assembly in there). Maybe it was in the tune, maybe it was in the hardware.

 

Mark

[kbrew8991]

maybe it was something in the top end (heads, cam, intake, intake tract)...?

 

It walks like weight reduction, it quacks like weight reduction... at least to me

[TurboShortBus]

I vaguely recall there being some sort of points assessment for a non-OEM engine block several years ago, claiming that it increased durability. This seems to have disappeared in recent years, though. Or maybe I'm thinking of a class other than TT.

 

Ken's car barely makes enough power to cover the difference between the Explorer and Mustang V8s.

 

Mark

[kbrew8991]

and it's still made more laps than your car this year

[TurboShortBus]

and it's still made more laps than your car this year

Unemployment...gotta do the responsible thing...

 

Mark

[jimbow]

In my opinion its an engine swap - needs dyno reclass.

 

Because that block never came in the Mustang.

 

Just my $0.02

[drivinhardz06]

Unemployment...gotta do the responsible thing...

 

Mark

 

You need to read Scott Perkin's NYT Bestseller, "How to quit your job and go racing"

[brkntrxn]

Mark beat me to it...

 

 

 

To the OP,

 

Being a loong time Mustang guy (don't let the Z06 in my sig fool you), I agree in that you would only be reducing weight if you take the same internals from the GT and put them in the Explorer block. And going from the iron to aluminum block would greatly help balance the car.

 

However, like Jim said, it is a swap and at the very least you should be dyno classed and put right back where you currently stand. However, if that were to happen, would Greg let you stay at the current minimum competition weight of your Mustang? Or would you base class with a couple of points for the improved weight balance the aluminum block now gives? If he dyno classed you right back to where you started, you have now forced anyone else that wants to compete with you in that same car to also go to an aluminum block. And that would just not seem fair in my uneducated opinion.

 

 

-Kevin

[Greg G.]

It's a motor swap, and it needs a Dyno re-class. He can use whatever Minimum Competition Weight he wants, just like all of the other Dyno re-classes, and it will be re-classed appropriately based on the numbers submitted.

[Varkwso]

need to get my magnet out to see if it is iron or painted aluminum.....

[bossman429]

You will find that the RWHP that your car makes in bone stock condition is very close to the number that Greg already uses to base class your car (1999-2004 Mustang GT). Mine is right on the money. So, if you aren't changing the power output, then a dyno reclass shouldn't change anything.

 

Of course, if you aren't doing anything to help increase its low-end power and torque while it's apart, then you aren't maximizing your effort. Also, from a durability standpoint, a piston and rod kit might not be a bad idea.

 

Note that the 1999-2004 Mustang GT 4.6L SOHC was rated at 260 hp / 302 lb-ft, while the 2002-2005 Explorer 4.6L SOHC was rated at 239 hp / 282 lb-ft, so something was different (if you were to just dunk an entire Explorer engine assembly in there). Maybe it was in the tune, maybe it was in the hardware.

 

Mark

 

The tune and some hardware was different, but the block specifications were identical. I would actually probably just get a bare block, and take all the internals out of my car and put it in the new block.. I would carry the heads over as well.

 

As far as reliability/power, without F/I i'll be hard pressed to damage anything on this engine. Also - if I were to start changing internals then I could see a power increase and possible points (not to mention more money). I'm thinking about it stricly for weight.

[bossman429]

It's a motor swap, and it needs a Dyno re-class. He can use whatever Minimum Competition Weight he wants, just like all of the other Dyno re-classes, and it will be re-classed appropriately based on the numbers submitted.

 

 

So to be clear - if I do this, get a dyno and the numbers do not change enough to push me to a different class based on hp/wt ratio then nothing changes correct? I say change enough because dyno numbers will change day to day, dyno to dyno.

 

Would my base weight be changed? I currently have about 250lbs to shed before I start taking weight reduction points, so even if I did lose 80lbs (which the delta is) I would still be in the black so to speak

[TurboShortBus]

As far as reliability/power, without F/I i'll be hard pressed to damage anything on this engine. Also - if I were to start changing internals then I could see a power increase and possible points (not to mention more money). I'm thinking about it stricly for weight.

Last season, we had an HPDE-1 driver with a 99-04 2V car with a ported set of heads, aftermarket camshafts, valve springs, etc. with a stock bottom end. At one point during a session, he pulled a "money shift." Later that day, he had a connecting rod exit through the side of the block.

 

While I'm sure that the stock powdered metal rods are fine for a NA application, I'm not good enough to be completely immune from a "money shift."

 

Mark

[Greg G.]

It's a motor swap, and it needs a Dyno re-class. He can use whatever Minimum Competition Weight he wants, just like all of the other Dyno re-classes, and it will be re-classed appropriately based on the numbers submitted.

 

 

So to be clear - if I do this, get a dyno and the numbers do not change enough to push me to a different class based on hp/wt ratio then nothing changes correct? I say change enough because dyno numbers will change day to day, dyno to dyno.

 

Would my base weight be changed? I currently have about 250lbs to shed before I start taking weight reduction points, so even if I did lose 80lbs (which the delta is) I would still be in the black so to speak

No, what Mark said is that if the numbers stay about the same as stock then nothing changes. However, for you, it looks like you will benefit from the Dyno re-class due to the extra weight you are carrying anyway. We will use the Minimum Comp. Wt. that you state, not the base weight listed in the rules (unless that is the weight that you chose).

[TurboShortBus]

So to be clear - if I do this, get a dyno and the numbers do not change enough to push me to a different class based on hp/wt ratio then nothing changes correct? I say change enough because dyno numbers will change day to day, dyno to dyno.

 

Would my base weight be changed? I currently have about 250lbs to shed before I start taking weight reduction points, so even if I did lose 80lbs (which the delta is) I would still be in the black so to speak

Per the TT rules, you declare your minimum competition weight and submit the dyno results for the base reclass.

 

If you absolutely cannot lose those extra 170 lbs (after -80 for the aluminum block) to get your MCW down to 3268 lbs (3273 - 5 for 0 weight reduction points), then declare the car's actual MCW and you might end up with a better base reclass than the current base TTE** 3273. Maybe you will lose a * or two.

 

IMO, if your MCW is 250 lbs heavy now, then there are easier ways to get down to 3268 lbs (unless you weigh 250 lbs more than I do) besides building another engine. My car is in the neighborhood of 3170 lbs MCW if I remove all of my ballast (or 2970 without driver). My power windows are still in place, original exhaust, stock K-member, but a completely gutted interior with no roll cage (yet).

 

Mark

[bossman429]

Maybe I need to re-read the rules, but this is making my head hurts.

 

He's whats tripping me up:

 

I've done various mods to the car to increase RWHP over a stock engine. (exhaust, cams etc etc) all of which I've taken points for.

 

Lets say my dyno results today are 290rwhp w/ a MCW of #3400

 

Now If I take everything i have on the engine/car and swap it over to the new block, the RWHP should stay the same at 290rwhp, and again I would take the same points as before for my cams, exhuast ect etc. Now my weight will be #3370. Still about 100lbs over the base min weight. How would anything change here?

 

I guess i dont fully understand the process of a base re-class and what that does or how that is determmined. I'll re-read the rules

[kbrew8991]

Once you're reclassed by Greg you don't take power points anymore - you just have to always measure under the WHP you're given for that Weight & Base Class.

 

Your base class may increase to account for some of those power (and weight) points, but, many still come out ahead (ie their base class may increase 7 points but they were taking 10 points in power before - savings of 3). And in your case it's also the only way to get that aluminum block in the car legally....

Edited September 27, 2011 by Guest

[bossman429]

IMO, if your MCW is 250 lbs heavy now, then there are easier ways to get down to 3268 lbs (unless you weigh 250 lbs more than I do) besides building another engine. My car is in the neighborhood of 3170 lbs MCW if I remove all of my ballast (or 2970 without driver). My power windows are still in place, original exhaust, stock K-member, but a completely gutted interior with no roll cage (yet).

 

Mark

 

 

Maybe its 150, not 250, but i know I'm above it by more than 80lbs

 

That being said I plan on removing more weight this winter, but its not just weight, its weight from the front of the car which I want to take out. Also I dont have the balls to gut my car. For some crazy reason I still want it to look decent even though I haven't driven if anywhere but the track in the past 3 years.

[bossman429]

Last season, we had an HPDE-1 driver with a 99-04 2V car with a ported set of heads, aftermarket camshafts, valve springs, etc. with a stock bottom end. At one point during a session, he pulled a "money shift." Later that day, he had a connecting rod exit through the side of the block.

 

While I'm sure that the stock powdered metal rods are fine for a NA application, I'm not good enough to be completely immune from a "money shift."

 

Mark

 

ehh I haven't done a 2-3-2 shift since I was learning to drive stick on my sisters accord, I'd be pretty shocked if I did that now (knocks on wood).

 

I agree, they aren't bullet proof by any means, but I've never seen one blow apart on a NA car without serious abuse (god I bet I just jinxed myself)

[bossman429]

Once you're reclassed by Greg you don't take power points anymore - you just have to always measure under the WHP you're given for that MCW & Base Class.

 

 

ahhh Ok - now thats clear. So camshafts, exhuast, pulleys ect would not count.

 

 

Would the reclassing be based of the power to weight ratios outlined in the adjusted power to weight ratios in the rules?

 

If so I can figure it out from here Thanks!

[kbrew8991]

Nope, its classified as if it were a brand new car - which has to be done by Greg, which is why you send it in. What you get back very well may not be that close to the adjusted hp/weight limit of the class. Factors like handling, aero, etc will push it downward away from that cap for sure... My reclass is about ~1.5 or so away from the cap for example (likely due to mid-engine weight balance, decent factory handling, decent factory aero, etc).