New class - Mustang Challenge - NASA version...thoughts

[Racer91m]

A reply to this thread that got forwarded to me so I will post because it's pretty accurate...

 

I think you are mistaken. I'd guess it's closer to 50/50. Under the circus tent at nationals:

2 - Mustang Challenge cars

2 - Rehagen-built cars that came from the dealership as Mustang GTs

1 - Boss 302 S

1 - Rehagen Boss 302R reworked to closely match a 302S

1 - S197 built by someone I don't know in the Mid-West then gone through by Rehagen

I see (1) Grand Am shell and (3) BIW vs. (3) S197 cars built from street cars.

 

 

My input:

 

If you can't enforce the ABS rule, take the rule out (which is REALLY why it is gone).

Same goes for throttle by wire. Throttle control was eliminated from the rules for the same reason. You can't police it.

 

A question that everybody seems to be asking, but won't post:

 

Why in the hell did you sell a Mustang that was already very fast and competitive to build a Camaro. If you think the S197 cars are so much better, Why didn't you build one? Why go to a Camaro that you now argue is not competitive? If you knew it wasn't competitive, why did you build it and then complain about it? I, along with others, are wondering... It just doesn't make sense. The rules were what they were. It seems like you built a car knowing it wasn't competitive, and now you want the series to dial back to the level of your car. It just doesn't make sense. Given all your arguments, and the fact that you just built this car in the last year or so, why didn't you just build it to CMC2 specs? I'm not trying to be a D, but it just flat doesn't make sense....

[D Algozine]

A reply to this thread that got forwarded to me so I will post because it's pretty accurate...

 

I think you are mistaken. I'd guess it's closer to 50/50. Under the circus tent at nationals:

2 - Mustang Challenge cars

2 - Rehagen-built cars that came from the dealership as Mustang GTs

1 - Boss 302 S

1 - Rehagen Boss 302R reworked to closely match a 302S

1 - S197 built by someone I don't know in the Mid-West then gone through by Rehagen

I see (1) Grand Am shell and (3) BIW vs. (3) S197 cars built from street cars.

 

 

My input:

 

If you can't enforce the ABS rule, take the rule out (which is REALLY why it is gone).

Same goes for throttle by wire. Throttle control was eliminated from the rules for the same reason. You can't police it.

 

A question that everybody seems to be asking, but won't post:

 

Why in the hell did you sell a Mustang that was already very fast and competitive to build a Camaro. If you think the S197 cars are so much better, Why didn't you build one? Why go to a Camaro that you now argue is not competitive? If you knew it wasn't competitive, why did you build it and then complain about it? I, along with others, are wondering... It just doesn't make sense. The rules were what they were. It seems like you built a car knowing it wasn't competitive, and now you want the series to dial back to the level of your car. It just doesn't make sense. Given all your arguments, and the fact that you just built this car in the last year or so, why didn't you just build it to CMC2 specs? I'm not trying to be a D, but it just flat doesn't make sense....

 

 

It has never been about me or my personal situation.

Racers should be able to build any legal AI car and have a fair and equal chance to be competitive.

[D Algozine]

Thats a great price per tire if that sticks and they are the tire!!!

 

Oh and everyone should stop there crying till rules come out....

 

Is only seems like crying... For some of us, its fighting for whats fair. It's fighting for a good reason to stay in the series that we used to really enjoy. It's getting back to that series and getting the racers back that have left..... When your point falls on deaf ears, then your only recourse is to get louder, or just repeat yourself. I'm sure you realize how passionate racers are about racing. Most of us spend countless hours and/or dollars, because we love it, or we are addicted.

Obviously, you don't agree with the message that some of us our trying to get across, but there are significant number of us, who feel like,.... simply, it hasn't been fair. We just want it to be fair.

I'm pretty sure, there wont be much BS when things are posted. You either can race with the rules or you can't.

[D Algozine]

A reply to this thread that got forwarded to me so I will post because it's pretty accurate...

 

I think you are mistaken. I'd guess it's closer to 50/50. Under the circus tent at nationals:

2 - Mustang Challenge cars

2 - Rehagen-built cars that came from the dealership as Mustang GTs

1 - Boss 302 S

1 - Rehagen Boss 302R reworked to closely match a 302S

1 - S197 built by someone I don't know in the Mid-West then gone through by Rehagen

I see (1) Grand Am shell and (3) BIW vs. (3) S197 cars built from street cars.

 

 

My input:

 

If you can't enforce the ABS rule, take the rule out (which is REALLY why it is gone).

Same goes for throttle by wire. Throttle control was eliminated from the rules for the same reason. You can't police it.

 

A question that everybody seems to be asking, but won't post:

 

Why in the hell did you sell a Mustang that was already very fast and competitive to build a Camaro. If you think the S197 cars are so much better, Why didn't you build one? Why go to a Camaro that you now argue is not competitive? If you knew it wasn't competitive, why did you build it and then complain about it? I, along with others, are wondering... It just doesn't make sense. The rules were what they were. It seems like you built a car knowing it wasn't competitive, and now you want the series to dial back to the level of your car. It just doesn't make sense. Given all your arguments, and the fact that you just built this car in the last year or so, why didn't you just build it to CMC2 specs? I'm not trying to be a D, but it just flat doesn't make sense....

 

 

Initially I took the high road, but how boring is that. Like Mark said, spirited exchange of ideas is a good thing.

 

So, based on Deans comments, due to the fact that nearly every rule change made in the last few years has been designed to favor the S197, then anyone looking to build a new car should build or buy (any idea where I could get one from) a new Mustang. Based on the modified rules, it doesn't make sense to build anything else. Which is exactly my point. It doesn't get any more arrogant then that. I've got a novel idea. How about put the rules back to when it was fair for all of the platforms, and each platform had its strenghts and weakness's, but the goal was parity. Don't give me the BS about having to keep with new technology. That has nothing to do with why things were changed, and changed without any regards to the existing cars, any other potential platform, or any real data. Is this how things operate in Grand Am? No, they continuely make adjustments based on data, facts and in the interst of parity. The perception that buying a new mustang is one of the only ways to be competitive is so bad for the series. It may be great for a few in the short term, but not the series, and not for the long term. You of all people know exaclty how significant the advantages are.

 

From the limited, info I have read, the ABS rule can be policed. Aren't there physical differences in the systems, not the module put the actual components? News flash, not all racing series allow ABS. You can race without it, thousands are doing it, and the sky has not fallen.

[firehawkclone]

Dave were done I'm sad to say! All the rule makers are ford guys.

 

It's not just the s197 they have been handing major rule changes to, it's been every ford chassis. No GM car has been given any major rule change ever.

 

Most major race series bann ABS. I wonder why? Cause they use it as traction control. So we protest every car that has it, and since they can't prove otherwise. Those drivers will have to remove it or will be DQ. Yeah thats not going to happen(read first sentence above).

 

So I'll keep my two 16&17yr old cars parked.

 

Back on topic. Once you and TJ leave they will have this MC series

[stevepoe]

Once you and TJ leave they will have this MC series

 

I think Dave already left ...he made what , 1 Race this year ?

 

course TJ ran the 4th fastest time at nationals and according to Him he did it on worn out struts , a trans falling out and worn out hoosiers with no good solid data.......yup what 14 mustangs or something like that and the 4th fastest time.....or was it 3rd fastest

 

finished 4th and right on the ass of that boss 302s with 14"brakes , fresh tires and the crazy make you go faster race abs system.......

 

ya gm can't run with ford anymore.......

[stevepoe]

Once you and TJ leave they will have this MC series

 

I think Dave already left ...he made what , 1 Race this year ?

 

course TJ ran the 4th fastest time at nationals and according to Him he did it on worn out struts , a trans falling out and worn out hoosiers with no good solid data.......yup what 14 mustangs or something like that and the 4th fastest time.....or was it 3rd fastest

 

finished 4th and right on the ass of that boss 302s with 14"brakes , fresh tires and the crazy make you go faster race abs system.......

 

ya gm can't run with ford anymore.......

 

 

god I wish Pat Lindsey still ran with us in his old non abs fox body car.......

 

Now back to building my low 20k s197 ai car .....

[D Algozine]

Once you and TJ leave they will have this MC series

 

I think Dave already left ...he made what , 1 Race this year ?

 

course TJ ran the 4th fastest time at nationals and according to Him he did it on worn out struts , a trans falling out and worn out hoosiers with no good solid data.......yup what 14 mustangs or something like that and the 4th fastest time.....or was it 3rd fastest

 

finished 4th and right on the ass of that boss 302s with 14"brakes , fresh tires and the crazy make you go faster race abs system.......

 

ya gm can't run with ford anymore.......

 

Your off on my race record....Just saying

 

I don't see your point. One non S197 makes into the top 4 and that should be good enough. Everyone else should just shut up and be happy that someone else made a top five? If your going to use National finishes (podiums) as data, then let me know what you come up with.

 

Besides, I do your get message, and your right, this stuff doesn't really matter. Lets just go back to the way it was before.

 

If I can use some stat's, 99% of this is just banter. Its not a democracy, besides by the middle of Nov, what's done is done. Its just waiting to see the results. So, I'm with Chris, no complaining once it's posted.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Guest

[robbodleimages]

dean martin, chris cobetto, chris desalvo. i dont know rich g and his racing background well, but i do know about dean martin. wasnt desalvo top 3 at the nationals in his old chassis mustang? wasnt chris cobetto regularly championship level in a spec e30?

 

lets not make it sound like an S197 chassis was the reason there was only 1 gm car in the top 4 or 5. that totally demeans the well proven driving ability of the guys that happened to be driving mustangs.

 

if it were me beating tj, then you would have a case, but it was a pro champion and a multi time nasa champion running up front.

[D Algozine]

dean martin, chris cobetto, chris desalvo. i dont know rich g and his racing background well, but i do know about dean martin. wasnt desalvo top 3 at the nationals in his old chassis mustang? wasnt chris cobetto regularly championship level in a spec e30?

 

lets not make it sound like an S197 chassis was the reason there was only 1 gm car in the top 4 or 5. that totally demeans the well proven driving ability of the guys that happened to be driving mustangs.

 

if it were me beating tj, then you would have a case, but it was a pro champion and a multi time nasa champion running up front.

 

Not my idea to use National podiums as a gauge. I like to use physics and in car data.

[svttim]

Looks like Ford just upped the anti with the new GT500. Although they didnt specify how big, they said the brakes are bigger for 13. Along with a 650HP motor in a car with a 200MPH toop speed. Talk about creep!

[stevepoe]

Looks like Ford just upped the anti with the new GT500. Although they didnt specify how big, they said the brakes are bigger for 13. Along with a 650HP motor in a car with a 200MPH toop speed. Talk about creep!

 

 

release the Kraken

 

650 hp all new 5.8 . new designed tr6060, carbon fiber driveshaft, launch control, six pot brakes......Thing is a beast. just hope it's not z06 money

[stevepoe]

looks lik gm has there eye on the bigger picture ......

 

wow

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/15/2012-chevrolet-corvette-daytona-prototype-unveiled/

[T&A Racing]

looks lik gm has there eye on the bigger picture ......

 

wow

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/15/2012-chevrolet-corvette-daytona-prototype-unveiled/

 

I would like to propose a rule change that makes this car AI legal. Seems to make sense based on our history.

[UBR]

looks lik gm has there eye on the bigger picture ......

Na, Looks like Pratt and Miller have their eye on the big picture with a check written by GM.

 

j

[Tommy55]

It is truly sad that GM won't jump in the grassroots racing like Ford has. Look what Ford has done. I don't care what die hard platform you run, you have to admire the new fords. Let's see what the rules say.... Dave I am with you. The new ford is definitely a superior platform. It will take some time, but it will be equal again. And btw, I was at nationals 2010 and had a pretty well prepped 4th gen firebird. I had nothing for Dean Martin. He is a good driver. That i give him. But I stand behind the philosophy that a driver can only push the car to the limits of the car. I believe the car will run out of talent before the driver will at these levels. You want to trade cars for a race Dean? JK. Congratulations on another AI win.

[firehawkclone]

Once you and TJ leave they will have this MC series

 

I think Dave already left ...he made what , 1 Race this year ?

 

course TJ ran the 4th fastest time at nationals and according to Him he did it on worn out struts , a trans falling out and worn out hoosiers with no good solid data.......yup what 14 mustangs or something like that and the 4th fastest time.....or was it 3rd fastest

 

finished 4th and right on the ass of that boss 302s with 14"brakes , fresh tires and the crazy make you go faster race abs system.......

 

ya gm can't run with ford anymore.......

 

Look at my times from 2010 nationals. I did ok and out braked most except for two pro cars. No GM car finished on the podium any year of nationals.

 

Everybody sounds scared to give a 15yr old plus car a helping hand. Give me.....

 

Change every suspension pickup

Racing abs, I could use anyone I want

Increased track

Wheels( I can use corvette 18x11's)

Race trans(I can use any racing trans GM is using out there)

Increase min wieght to 3200lbs(sorry TJ) 4000lbs for abs cars! They were already 200/400lbs more than everybody else!

Ect Ect.

 

And the best part, all of you have to remove all of the upgrades the rules have given you. Sounds just like what's been done to us! Stop your whinning and remove it!

 

I bet that 4CH racing abs has a form of traction control built in to it.

 

Here's the kicker. I have no s197 here in Socal. I do race against agent 47, great people with alot of skill and talented drivers/ mechanics. But I look at nationals.

 

In short I'm upset like most GM guys. Let's let in the these upgrades when everybody has them. And we can police them. Lets try no abs for a few years, It's easy to remove an abs system. It's called a flaring tool

[SNAKBITN]

GM seems to only put there money into the Corvette and Cadillac.The corvette I understand but who gives a damn about the Cady.They will sell alot more Camaro's than Cadillac's by far.By the time they finally understand there missing the boat again Ford will come out with even more improvements and put them under the gun again.They need to get some of that weight off and not worry about trying to catch the Shelby.

 

Robert

[firehawkclone]

It is truly sad that GM won't jump in the grassroots racing like Ford has. Look what Ford has done. I don't care what die hard platform you run, you have to admire the new fords. Let's see what the rules say.... Dave I am with you. The new ford is definitely a superior platform. It will take some time, but it will be equal again. And btw, I was at nationals 2010 and had a pretty well prepped 4th gen firebird. I had nothing for Dean Martin. He is a good driver. That i give him. But I stand behind the philosophy that a driver can only push the car to the limits of the car. I believe the car will run out of talent before the driver will at these levels. You want to trade cars for a race Dean? JK. Congratulations on another AI win.

 

We did ok didn't we Tommy

Who wants to guess were the orange car finishes?

[redsnake08]

All good ideas, but let's be careful that we don't have "each region create another test class". As a national series, we need to ensure some unity and consistency across the American Iron country. That being said, the regional series/race director has the authority to "set grid as he chooses". If all the S197 cars agree they want to grid up front of the field and all the non-S197 cars grid up behind them for a split start regardless of qual times...have at it!!! You could have a race within a race, but I guarantee that there will be fast Foxes/Camaros into the mid-pack of the S197 class.

 

Funny how this says "If all the s197 cars agree"..... How about all non new mustang racers agree to split start behind them?! The playground bully s can go pick on each other!

[redsnake08]

By now most of you have the December issue of grassroots. Turn to page 116 and READ the FIRST paragraph of the Bosh product..... Any questions? Didnt think so! Discussion over.

[blackbolt9]

Not my idea to use National podiums as a gauge. I like to use physics and in car data.

 

Really because I've yet to see you post any calculations or data from independent cars that you are comparing to use in your continuous complaining.

[blackbolt9]

Look at my times from 2010 nationals. I did ok and out braked most except for two pro cars. No GM car finished on the podium any year of nationals.

 

So you admit you could stop faster than all but 2 cars? I know there were alot more than (2) S197 Mustangs at the 2010 nationals. And yet we still have complaints about the ABS systems in them being the uber game changer that keeps the rest of the field behind them

[Tommy55]

Look at my times from 2010 nationals. I did ok and out braked most except for two pro cars. No GM car finished on the podium any year of nationals.

 

So you admit you could stop faster than all but 2 cars? I know there were alot more than (2) S197 Mustangs at the 2010 nationals. And yet we still have complaints about the ABS systems in them being the uber game changer that keeps the rest of the field behind them

 

I don't think he was saying he could out brake all but 2 cars. I think he is saying he car had nothing more when other cars did. It is an obvious situation with a superior platform. We just don't know how to get the current GM platform any better. We have been working on it for 10 years now. A new platform comes out and dominates and everyone says there is no performance advantage. I call BS. There are alot of good drivers who would normally run in the front, but all the sudden at nationals they can't. What is the point of going to nationals and spending tons of money if your platform doesn't quite cut it. I agree, you will probably have someone to race with. I have proven it, John Wheeler has proven it, Mike Patterson and TJ have proven it.....when does it end. All I am saying is let's try and keep it a drivers class and try and keep the platforms as even as possible.

[firehawkclone]

Look at my times from 2010 nationals. I did ok and out braked most except for two pro cars. No GM car finished on the podium any year of nationals.

 

So you admit you could stop faster than all but 2 cars? I know there were alot more than (2) S197 Mustangs at the 2010 nationals. And yet we still have complaints about the ABS systems in them being the uber game changer that keeps the rest of the field behind them

 

Who are you really? Do you even race AI?