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Greg G.

2013 CHANGES TO ST/STR/PTA (TTA and TTS)

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sperkins
Damn, I've got to lose 250 #'s or gain ~32 hp!

 

Same here-- either loose 242lbs (not happening) or gain 30 HP

 

Run slicks...

No way I'm strictly buying slicks from this point forward and there's definitely no way I'm keeping a few sets of DOT's and a few sets of slicks.

 

NASA made the spread between ST2 and ST3 way too wide. It will be nearly impossible to build a car that can be competitive in both classes depending on car counts for a particular weekend.

So basically if I decide to build an ST3/TT3 car and no one else decides to show up, I'll get murdered if I try to run in ST2/TT2.

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Falcon
Damn, I've got to lose 250 #'s or gain ~32 hp!

 

Same here-- either loose 242lbs (not happening) or gain 30 HP

 

Run slicks...

 

I do, they're just real old A6's with the grooves worn down to nothing.

 

I do plan on headers, though.

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gkmccready

NASA made the spread between ST2 and ST3 way too wide. It will be nearly impossible to build a car that can be competitive in both classes depending on car counts for a particular weekend.

So basically if I decide to build an ST3/TT3 car and no one else decides to show up, I'll get murdered if I try to run in ST2/TT2.

 

If you don't make the spread wide enough why bother with two classes? 8:1 and 9:1 actually seem too close... PTA and ST2 having the same pwr:wr in the past always seemed a bit odd to me. Good for the PTA drivers to be able to move, but no other class in NASA seemed to offer that option?

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sperkins
Good for the PTA drivers to be able to move, but no other class in NASA seemed to offer that option?
Really? How many classes can a CMC or AI Mustang run in? How about a Spec German Anything? There are more frickin classes than NASA knows what to do with. If TTA/PTA was eliminated because the C5 Corvettes were just too dominant, does anyone actually think that it's going to be easier to beat one with an unlimited rule set?

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gkmccready
Really? How many classes can a CMC or AI Mustang run in? How about a Spec German Anything? There are more frickin classes than NASA knows what to do with. If TTA/PTA was eliminated because the C5 Corvettes were just too dominant, does anyone actually think that it's going to be easier to beat one with an unlimited rule set?

 

Okay, you're right. There are some other cars/classes that can move around. I'm not sure how successfully without a lot more than slicks vs DOTs, though.

 

Was PTA eliminated because of dominate Corvettes? Or just lack of participation across the country? In NorCal a total of one ST2 car has run this season., and PTA has had 5, but super inconsistent and only one event with >1 car.

 

Honestly, I don't think it's great that NASA is displacing the PTA Corvettes, but if it's because PTA isn't working across the entire organization I can understand it. Heck. Go create a Spec Vette ruleset and see if people will follow it. With SCCA's recent rule changes for T1 they're going to displace all the C5s from that class and they'll be looking for a new home... the class will be empty in NorCal, I bet, but maybe it'll fly where there's already a bunch of PTA 'vettes running around.

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Cobra4B
Heck. Go create a Spec Vette ruleset and see if people will follow it...

Already tried that. NASA wants no part of that and it's just be another stupid class much like all the STR classes and the Spec-Z class etc. We need to let C5s run AI or combine ST3 and AI.

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Red Tornado

Yes and agree. Work Todd n Greg as there are some valid points but a lot of work

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drivinhardz06

I don't have an issue with the creation of st3 in and of itself. Another 9:1 unlimited class with AI and gts around is a bit of a head scratcher. Why not just punt AI into st3 like pta (think car counts) and I'd take a close look at putting the base c5 back in TTB, even if it needs a comp adjustment. No cheap class for one of the cheapest, most available and popular sports cars avail is a shame for the budget weekend tt'er

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toomchpwr
No cheap class for one of the cheapest, most available and popular sports cars avail is a shame for the budget weekend tt'er

 

 

Is Greg the single person that made this wise decision?

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Cobra4B
No cheap class for one of the cheapest, most available and popular sports cars avail is a shame for the budget weekend tt'er

 

 

Is Greg the single person that made this wise decision?

No... supposedly Greg's merely the messenger who we all riddle with bullets.

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D_Eclipse9916
Heck. Go create a Spec Vette ruleset and see if people will follow it...

Already tried that. NASA wants no part of that and it's just be another stupid class much like all the STR classes and the Spec-Z class etc. We need to let C5s run AI or combine ST3 and AI.

 

I keep seeing you guys beat the drum to let yourselves in AI, but where is all the support from AI to get you in it?

 

My point of view, a power to weight class with american sedans (ie mustangs/camaros) would get demolished by a proper sports car such as a vette. If I had a mustang/camaro and there were good fields already, I would fight nail and tooth to keep a car like the vette out.

 

Just providing a viewpoint you guys might not be thinking about...

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Cobra4B
Heck. Go create a Spec Vette ruleset and see if people will follow it...

Already tried that. NASA wants no part of that and it's just be another stupid class much like all the STR classes and the Spec-Z class etc. We need to let C5s run AI or combine ST3 and AI.

 

I keep seeing you guys beat the drum to let yourselves in AI, but where is all the support from AI to get you in it?

 

My point of view, a power to weight class with american sedans (ie mustangs/camaros) would get demolished by a proper sports car such as a vette. If I had a mustang/camaro and there were good fields already, I would fight nail and tooth to keep a car like the vette out.

 

Just providing a viewpoint you guys might not be thinking about...

Actually a few of the AI guys seem to support it and even started a thread in the AI section about it. Corvettes have cheap interiors and poor steering feel/feedback. They can't possibly go fast.

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D_Eclipse9916

I looked in that thread, and maybe saw two to three saying they wouldnt object, but none that were for it. And 2/3 people doesnt really represent well.

 

I guess I just dont understand where you think a limited points/class PTA vette that is running same power/weight as AI on stock leafs/no aero and is going FASTER, should be with the mustangs that go slower with full suspension, aero/brakes....lol.

 

I am not saying that vettes shouldnt have a class to play. But you guys have to build your own. Going into another class, you are just going to dominate and destroy whatever class you got into. If the vette is such a good platform for racing and everyone wants to race them, put them in their own class, and let the numbers speak for themselves.

 

I personally wanted to stay in TTC and thought it was a much better class/cheaper/could have more people.

 

Guess what I did? Switch to GTS2, thats where the car counts are, thats where people, thats where I went. Please don't destroy other successful classes by throwing in an overdog.

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drivinhardz06

Nobody wants the corvette in their class, wonder if ST3 will be the same?

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jrgordonsenior
Nobody wants the corvette in their class, wonder if ST3 will be the same?

Wouldn't a T1 Corvette fall into the new ST2 classification? 380(+/-) rwhp would be a difficult sell with the 9.5 multiplier (3600)....

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sperkins
Nobody wants the corvette in their class, wonder if ST3 will be the same?

Bet on it.

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PushinTheLimit
Nobody wants the corvette in their class, wonder if ST3 will be the same?

Wouldn't a T1 Corvette fall into the new ST2 classification? 380(+/-) rwhp would be a difficult sell with the 9.5 multiplier (3600)....

 

The newer prepped T1 cars (whatever year that gave the vettes headers and brakes) fit better under the new ST2 rules as far as the weight/horsepower ratio, but without a point modifier for aero... I can't see them competing against aero cars. Older T1 cars like mine can easily go into ST3 without aero by a little detuning or weight addition and be ready to go.

 

Don't know if these changes will bring in more vipers or not. Haven't really seen any around in ST2 as they have been restricted even running in T1 for years.

 

I don't see the C5 or C6 being allowed in AI... although the newer mustangs have held their own in ST2 the past couple of years (and even won the ST2 National Championship last year). If the participation in ST2 and ST3 pickup next year, I think it'll only get better from there.

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obzezzed350

Off topic, what did the SCCA do to the T1 vettes?

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kbrew8991
these changes are supported by the majority of our participants, Regional Directors, and Regional Series Directors in all three series

I talked to my TTS and TTA people this weekend, none were polled about this change like what was done with the ST2 people.

 

Guess the changes will happen anyway and we'll just have to solider on.

 

also put me down as a former T&S person that would prefer all classing be letters....

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Cobra4B

The more I think about it why not just leave ST2/TT2 where it is at 8.7:1 but allow a "no aero" modifier and then just delete PTA/TTA. That would become the "Corvette" class and ex-T1 cars could come over w/o aero.

 

The whole ST2/TT2 and ST3/TT3 thing just continues to split up our cars. I could easily build my car to each class at this point.

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PushinTheLimit
Off topic, what did the SCCA do to the T1 vettes?

 

From the last that I heard, they were basically going to slow T1 down and combine that class with T2. Many of them have spent big $$$ on headers, brakes and wheels to run the class and many don't want to go slower to race. So they would fit decent into ST2 weight/power wise... but would still need to add aero to their cars most likely unless there was a mod factor for non-aero cars for ST2. If you're going to have an aero mod factor for ST3, why not ST2?

 

ST2 Aero 8.0 wt/hp

ST2 Non-Aero 7.5 wt/hp

 

ST3 Aero 9.5 wt/hp

ST3 Non-Aero 9.0 wt/hp

 

Edit: Fixed mod factor numbers.

Edited by Guest

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jrgordonsenior
Off topic, what did the SCCA do to the T1 vettes?

For the C5 they raised the weight to 120lbs. to 3300 and added a 63mm flat plate restrictor w/o headers, 55mm w/headers.

 

For the C6's they raised the weight to 3400 or 3450 with 64mm(LS2) or 52mm(LS3) restrictors.

 

2" restrictors with 120 lbs. are a BFD.I for one don't understand they're thinking but I'm looking forward to seeing more T1 cars(w/wings) in ST2 next year. They're damn fun to race against and that sound as you pass them ....

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Vettedoctor

Wouldn't it be cool to see a group where Corvettes, Mustangs, Porsche and BMW's can all run in the same class? I know that class should/could be ST2 or ST3 but we have to find a way to motivate the GTS and AI cars to come over, not to try to push our way into successful classes. There just needs to be a little bit of bait that's worth it to those drivers.

 

As far as T1 cars go there just aren't a lot of T1 cars running anymore - espeically C5's there were only 4 of them at the Run-offs I believe - if they are pissed at SCCA and they don't want to go slower what's $2k in aero to go run ST2? If that's really all that's keeping them from running ST2.

 

I keep hearing all of this aero talk, as if aero is the only reason ST cars are fast and all I can do is chuckle. Sure aero makes a differance but all of the stuff under the skin of the car is where the real costs are. What's $2k in aero when there are tranny's, suspension, brakes and engines out there that are easily 2 to 4 times that cost?

Edited by Guest

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Cobra4B

So are the weight mod factors sticking around or going away?

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