Fuel cell install question

[Jeremymoen]

I would like to ask a question about AI cars and the ruleset regarding frame and trunk floor modifications.

 

I have an older AI car that was from the Rocky Mountain region (this is Raybob and Kent Thornberry's old ride). It had a non FIA certified fuel cell, so I have been working to install the proper rated cell. I have the crash cage / cell support pretty much installed, and was questioning some guys on the FRRAX.com forums, and they recommended that I show you the car before and after and make sure I understand how I need to finish this install.

 

I'm trying to bring it up to current AI ruleset and join the AI ranks after getting through comp. school (hopefully in late Sept. with Mid South Region).

 

Here is the area before I started my install. You can see that the stock trunk floor was removed and other sheet metal put in place. They had added the sheet metal box and an aluminum plate over the top for the bulkhead (not shown). Also note the small aluminum surge tank (about 5x5x6") to fix fuel starvation problems (will this be an issue in tech?).

 

 

From advice I had received from Alan Blaine of Blainefab, it was wise to move the fuel cell away from the rear bumper for better safety, so I removed the sheetmetal that had been added (not OEM) in order to "start over" and move the cell toward the rear axle so it's better protected.

After removing all the added stuff then it looked like this:

 

 

As you can see, not much left there I did not cut any additional OEM stuff out - only the metal that had been added back in.

 

Fast forward to current day, and with the new ATL 15 gallon cell and crash cage installed looks like this:

 

 

Am I required to find a donor car, remove the OEM sheet metal and add that back in? Or can I go back with flat sheet metal to seal the area off, and add the required bulkhead? I don't want to create friction and I'd like to avoid doing it twice if possible.

 

Any issue you foresee with the small surge tank? I'd rather not have to add the surge tank inside the cell if I can help it.

[T&A Racing]

I think it is typical to replace the oem trunk floor to install the fuel cell. Which specific rule are you asking about. There needs to be something between the cell and the cabin of the car but I don't see anything that says it has to be factory.

[Jeremymoen]

I think it is typical to replace the oem trunk floor to install the fuel cell. Which specific rule are you asking about. There needs to be something between the cell and the cabin of the car but I don't see anything that says it has to be factory.

 

Rule:

 

7.3 Frame

The entire tub, floorpan, firewall, and frame assemblies including the cowl and windshield frame must

remain in the stock position and cannot be relocated. “Cowl” is defined as the metal structure installed by

the factory between the firewall and base of the windshield. “Frame” and “frame rail” are defined as the

parallel boxed metal rails running the length of the car that form the basis of the unibody or frame.

“Floorpan” is defined as the sheet metal forming the floor and trunk floor of the car. Cars may not be

“channeled” to raise the floor within the body or lower the body below the frame rails. The only

modifications to these structures allowed will be in the following instances and no secondary purpose for

a modification is allowed (i.e. electrical cable passage facilitating suspension clearance). If a modification

is not listed below it is specifically not allowed.

a) To facilitate the addition of safety equipment such as subframe connectors and roll cage bracing (i.e.

roll cage may extend through the firewall to strut towers);

cool.gif To facilitate plumbing or electrical access.

c) To facilitate transmission fitment or access.

d) For installation of a fuel cell or fuel tank access. S197 chassis Mustangs may relocate the fuel tank

from the rear seat stock location to the trunk area behind the rear axle.

e) For exhaust clearance. This does not allow exhaust components to be run through the firewall, which

is not allowed.

f) To facilitate installation of and access to ignition and induction components in 4th generation F-body

GM vehicles. Allowed modification is restricted to removal or clearancing of the cowl/wiper bucket

area. The cowl and firewall must remain otherwise intact.

g) To facilitate the installation and removal of valve covers 2005

or newer Mustangs. Allowed modification is restricted to

clearance of the cowl / wiper bucket area. The cowl and

firewall must remain otherwise intact.

h) The floorpan may be modified for the purpose of facilitating the installation of a three-link type

suspension. Such modification is limited to a hole being cut in the floorpan to allow the “third link” to

pass through the floorpan to the attachment point in the cockpit. All components that intrude into the

cockpit must be covered.

i) Rear frame rails may NOT be “notched” for suspension clearance.

 

I know I must have a bulkhead between the cell and the rest of the car. But you answered my question - sounds like I don't need to worry about trying to replace what was cut out with factory sheet metal. It wouldn't be much anyway. I just didn't want to find out later that you "can't" cut all that out.

[Mystic_Cobra]

Based on what I see here, I think this is a gray area that may need to be clarified in the rules and here's why...

 

quoting as appropriate

The entire tub, floorpan, firewall, and frame assemblies including the cowl and windshield frame must remain in the stock position and cannot be relocated.

“Floorpan” is defined as the sheet metal forming the floor and trunk floor of the car.

If a modification is not listed below it is specifically not allowed.

d) For installation of a fuel cell or fuel tank access.

 

 

So, this says that the trunk floor (as part of the floor pan) must remain in the stock position BUT can be modified for installation of a fuel cell. It doesn't specify what type of mods are permitted. I think this says you cannot replace the trunk floor but I may be reading in too much. Replacement is clearly what we are discussing. I would be okay with you adding a steel access panel that is the same dimensions and location of the original sheetmetal and is appropriately secured vs tracking down and reinstalling an oem or repro trunk floor. Can it be steel? aluminum? what gauge? Does it matter?

 

I'll forward this to the other directors to get some additional feedback.

[Jeremymoen]

Jimmy

 

I agree it's a bit of a gray area. I have the same questions about material as well. What was there before was a sheet of aluminum over the steel box that formed a sealed compartment or "bulkhead".

 

Let me know what you find out please.

[nape]

Please don't clarify this too much. If we can run $15,000 shock packages but we can't make a bulkhead with an aluminum panel that may just be the last straw...

[UBR]

If we can run $15,000 shock packages but we can't make a bulkhead with an aluminum panel that may just be the last straw...

You're running $15k shocks! I didn't think your whole car had that much in it. We didn't even pay that for the Motons on Mark's car.

 

j

[T&A Racing]

I free with TJ there is no need to change this.

[nape]

You're running $15k shocks! I didn't think your whole car had that much in it. We didn't even pay that for the Motons on Mark's car.

 

j

 

Mine are missing a couple of zeros. The only remote reservoir on my car is the engine puke tank (and it's a 32oz Gatorade bottle).

[marshallmosty]

Mine are missing a couple of zeros. The only remote reservoir on my car is the engine puke tank (and it's a 32oz Gatorade bottle).

 

Here's mine...

 

[99cobra2881]

Hehehe when I was looking for a pcv catch can there were plenty of high dollar setups, I ended up using an aluminum energy drink can with a cheap autozone ricer breather stuck in a bushing in the top. Even threw a ss scrubbing pad in there to help catch the oil vapor. It works great and gave me some energy when I drank it too.

[UBR]

 

Here's mine...

 

 

Is that you catch can or your shock? It's way too fancy for a catch can. It's even painted and everything.

 

j

[marshallmosty]

Works perfect as an oil catch can, plumbed into the PCV system. Pulled it off the garage wall for the re-purpose...

 

KISS

[99cobra2881]

 

Here's mine...

 

 

Is that you catch can or your shock? It's way too fancy for a catch can. It's even painted and everything.

 

j

 

Haha

 

I debated about painting the energy drink can before I put it under the hood. I broke down and painted it.

[Jeremymoen]

I did get a PM back from Todd, and his general recommendation was to seal up what I could with flat sheet metal. No mention directly of material choice, but I'll go with some light gauge stainless I have laying around.

 

He was also alright with the surge tank "if it's properly vented." I'm not exactly sure what that means. If it's "vented" to the tank via the overfill line, and the tank is vented with roll -over valve, is that properly vented? I think I'm going with it . . .

[Jeremymoen]

Speaking of catch cans . . .

 

What's everyone use for a catch can for the fuel tank vent? I thought I saw a requirement in the CCR's for that? This car never had a catch can before. Or am I mistaken on that?

[Al Watson]

No issues here. Seems straight fwd to me.

 

Jeremy. The general ccr states "a solid metal bulkhead" needs to be between the cell and drivers compartment. It does not give any sizes or dementions so its up to you as long as its metal. As for the ai rules your free to cut up the trunk to install a cell, access hatch, plumbing etc. However i am not sure about your surge tank. If it is plumbed so that fuel is normally in that tank than that tank needs to be fia certified like the cell. If the tank is just an overflow where fuel is not normally in it than its all good.

[marshallmosty]

No issues here. Seems straight fwd to me.

 

Jeremy. The general ccr states "a solid metal bulkhead" needs to be between the cell and drivers compartment. It does not give any sizes or dementions so its up to you as long as its metal. As for the ai rules your free to cut up the trunk to install a cell, access hatch, plumbing etc. However i am not sure about your surge tank. If it is plumbed so that fuel is normally in that tank than that tank needs to be fia certified like the cell. If the tank is just an overflow where fuel is not normally in it than its all good.

 

I read it slightly differently. Only fuel "cells" need to be compliant to FIA certified. If he had a standard fuel tank, there is no requirement for anything fancy. I view this install as a hybrid betweena fuel cell (needs FIA cert) and a fuel tank (does not need FIA cert). If they are both under the aluminum/stainless bulkhead, then all the better.

[Jeremymoen]

Firstly, thanks for the info and replies so far everyone .

 

Ok sounds like I should clarify:

 

The surge tank is plumbed as follows: "lift pump" pulls fuel direct from the FIA cert. fuel cell, and pushes into surge tank. Surge tank fills up to the top, then a line at the top of the tank returns fuel back to the cell. So that makes a continuous loop as long as that pump is on, and that surge tank always stays full, as long as there is fuel in the cell obviously. This lift pump does a good job even if it is exposed to some air pockets, etc. It's just not real high volume, and only 3-4 psi - perfect for filling a surge tank I thought.

 

Another port on the bottom of the surge tank is connected to the main fuel pump. In this manner, the main pump NEVER experiences a fuel starvation issue, right down to the last gallon or less of fuel. I had terrible problems with getting a air bubble to the main pump, and then I'd have 2 psi fuel pressure, sometimes none.

 

So the surge tank fixed that issue, this just happens to be an external style surge tank kit I bought on eBay instead of the high priced ATL unit I could buy that would fit inside the tank.

 

It's really pretty small, like 5 x 5 x6 or something. Can't hold much more than 1/3 gallon.

 

Now I'm not sure Todd totally understood the question about the surge tank. It would be mounted above the cell toward the front, so should be fairly well protected, at least that's the hope.

 

Heck, my fuel filter is almost as big as the small surge tank.

[Al Watson]

Got your logic Marshall. But 15.4 states "fuel cell / tank". Since this tank holds fuel it is a tank or cell and is subject to the fia cert. The way I see it is if it was the oe tank its good but anything else its a cell/tank. Jeremy you might want to email nasa hq since this is a ccr rule not an ai rule. If there response says your surge tank is ok and need not be fia your good to go. Al.

[Jeremymoen]

Sorry for a dumb question but who should I email about this?

[Mystic_Cobra]

Sorry for a dumb question but who should I email about this?

I guess it depends on what "this" is referring to.

 

If you were following the AI rules, you would contact your regional director. He will bring the question to the "board". Contact info is in the back of the rules. See section 11 on page 11.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/american_iron_rules.pdf

Edited August 26, 2013 by Guest

[Al Watson]

Since this fuel cell rule is a general ccr rule not a class rule I would first call nasa at the number on the bottom of the nasa home page, talk to them, ask for an email to fwd your info too.

 

http://www.nasaproracing.com/

[Jeremymoen]

Is there a way to duplicate a thread in another section? Would be nice to have this thread in another spot.

 

Or I guess a mod could move it.

 

I did call NASA home base and they are figuring out who I need to talk to about the surge tank regulations.

[darreng505]

I'm no expert on this yet, but am about to build a fuel cell for my AI project as well.

 

...must remain in the stock position and cannot be relocated...

 

The operative word in the rule, in my opinion, is position. It doesn't say it can't be replaced, rebuilt or modified (in a way that doesn't alter its general position).

 

Does position also mean "shape"? I don't think so. I would interpret it to mean that the general plane of the floorpan (i.e. the level from all four corners) remains the same.

Just my $0.02.