HPDE Accidents

[n1cK!]

Do you think the average cop even knows anything about harnesses being legal or illegal? I have been pulled over wearing harnesses at least 7 times that I can remember. No cop ever even mentioned them.

 

ah, but here in california, we are in the land of poseurs and haters...CHP is notorious for knowing what is DOT legal and what is not. they take pride in being educated about the law (and GREAT pride in enforcing it).

[cstreit911]

so what do the racers do? i am looking into getting my race license and plan on going into PT. since the car is not legal to drive on public highways (no more airbags, full roll-cage, harness), i only use it at the track. is there a "race" insurance? is it required to have insurance if you are in a race class (non-HPDE)?

 

 

Unless you are racing a "special car" like a vintage Ferrari 250 or an original Cobra it's probably not worth insuring. As you saw the cost of insurance exceeds replacement value pretty quickly. It's as they said, if you can't afford to wreck it, then either don't drive it or be prepared to be out of racing for a while....

[badass55]

ok to start before removing the airbags and wheel, u might wan=t to look at a California Vehicle Code book. id dose have code stopping most of the upgrades. just for info. as far a most cops, city or county, they dont know the VC for the belts. in CA there is a code that says were the belts have to mount. but if u have both ur all good. do a bit f searching and ull be fine when/ if CHP stops you. i dont have the codes on the top of my head but i had to look them up before i did the work on my vehicle.

[fast_frank_d]

I think the liability question is still a good one. Do racers have liability coverage if they hit a corner worker who is the track owner's nephew? Or is the facility owner liable because there was not adeqaute corner worker protection? I wonder if the track employees sign their own waiver?

 

FD

[eclricochet]

I think the liability question is still a good one. Do racers have liability coverage if they hit a corner worker who is the track owner's nephew? Or is the facility owner liable because there was not adeqaute corner worker protection? I wonder if the track employees sign their own waiver?

 

FD

Truth be told, a waiver is pretty much a sheet of toilet paper in court. Just a simple fact that in some states, if a lawyer make a case of ANY negligence, the waiver is void.

 

--Doug

[nasaregistrar]

I think the liability question is still a good one. Do racers have liability coverage if they hit a corner worker who is the track owner's nephew? Or is the facility owner liable because there was not adeqaute corner worker protection? I wonder if the track employees sign their own waiver?

 

FD

http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/2008/nasa-insurance-coverage-increa.html

[Bruce L.]

Doug,

that is the opposite that I've been told by at least one prominent motorsports-related attorney - can you back it up with facts or is it heresay? Issues have to rise to the level of gross negligence for substantial settlements to occur.

bruce

 

 

I think the liability question is still a good one. Do racers have liability coverage if they hit a corner worker who is the track owner's nephew? Or is the facility owner liable because there was not adeqaute corner worker protection? I wonder if the track employees sign their own waiver?

 

FD

Truth be told, a waiver is pretty much a sheet of toilet paper in court. Just a simple fact that in some states, if a lawyer make a case of ANY negligence, the waiver is void.

 

--Doug

[Richard EVO]

This forum is oddly silent on the death of an HPDE driver on May 24 at the NASA event at Willow Springs International Raceway. My condolenes to the family.

[Neon2dmaX]

Doug,

that is the opposite that I've been told by at least one prominent motorsports-related attorney - can you back it up with facts or is it heresay? Issues have to rise to the level of gross negligence for substantial settlements to occur.

bruce

 

 

I think the liability question is still a good one. Do racers have liability coverage if they hit a corner worker who is the track owner's nephew? Or is the facility owner liable because there was not adeqaute corner worker protection? I wonder if the track employees sign their own waiver?

 

FD

Truth be told, a waiver is pretty much a sheet of toilet paper in court. Just a simple fact that in some states, if a lawyer make a case of ANY negligence, the waiver is void.

 

--Doug

 

 

Although I definitely disagree with Doug, the answer to Fast Frank's question is a bit complex.

 

The question asks if "racers have liability coverage if they hit a corner worker..." The answer to this question is probably not. Most insurance policies will exclude organized racing from their coverage, but as Ryan suggested a few pages back, check your policy. HPDE may be different since it does not involve a race, and in many respect does not have the same attributes as a pure race. But again, as Ryan pointed out, some insurance companies are beginning to specifically exclude "on track" occurrences and losses.

 

The broader question is whether participants (i.e. (race, TT or HPDE group participants) can be held liable for an incident occurring on the track, and if so, under what circumstances.

 

The answer depends in part on the state in which the event occurs. This is due to the fact that some states have limited liability waivers to exclude gross negligence while other states apply them to any level of negligence.

 

For example, it may surprise many of you to learn that there was lawsuit resulting from the fatal crash (2 fatalities) of a Porsche Carrera GT at a club track day at the California Speedway. This case ultimately resulted in a settlement reported to be $4.5 million. The contributions to the settlement were about 49% from the estate of the driver, 41% from the track owners and the event organizers, 8% from Porsche, and 2% from the driver of the Ferrari that was claimed to have triggered the crash. (Keep in mind... this incident involved a group of "track day" type participants, not a formal race group, although some of the principles may still be applicable to race groups.)

 

So, if there is no liability, then why did this case settle? It seems that while the case was pending, the California Supreme Court published its decision in City of Santa Barbara v. Superior Court, 41 Cal. 4th 747 (Cal. 2007). In this case, the California Supreme Court held that an exculpatory clause did not shield a defendant from liability for gross negligence. The exculpatory clause did not contain explicit language waiving liability for gross negligence, but the Court’s logic leads to the conclusion that any such explicit clause also would be void. Some commentators have expressed the view that this opinion may lead the Court to narrow the doctrine of primary assumption of risk, which commonly is asserted by defendants in personal injury actions arising from sports or recreational situations.

 

In short, the California Supreme Court held

that an agreement purporting to release liability for future gross negligence committed against a participant in the context of a recreational activity

violates public policy and is unenforceable. Thus, the court distinguished between acts of ordinary negligence and gross negligence.

 

Now, before dismissing the California Supreme Court's decision as just another departure by those crazy Californians, read the decision which discloses that California law is now in agreement with a majority of other states, some of which will attach liability for acts of ordinary negligence. Also, don't forget that most states (if not all) will not enforce exculpatory releases which purport to limit liability for intentional misconduct.

 

For more information, look here:

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/content/carrera

 

For more background on the incident, look here:

http://www.knbc.com/news/4562562/detail.html

 

If anyone is interested, in reading a copy of the California Supreme Court's opinion, you can go to a local law library to read it, try to find it online, or email me and I will send a copy via return email. My email address is:

 

[email protected]

 

Neon2dmaX

[pgipson]

This forum is oddly silent on the death of an HPDE driver on May 24 at the NASA event at Willow Springs International Raceway. My condolenes to the family.

 

There is a notice on the nasa home page. anyone know what happened?

[sn8byte]

This forum is oddly silent on the death of an HPDE driver on May 24 at the NASA event at Willow Springs International Raceway. My condolenes to the family.

 

There is a notice on the nasa home page. anyone know what happened?

 

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22368

[n1cK!]

This forum is oddly silent on the death of an HPDE driver on May 24 at the NASA event at Willow Springs International Raceway. My condolenes to the family.

 

i had no idea. just read it today...it really is too bad. my condolences to the family...

[NOT///MPOWER]

deleted by me.

[Renntag]

To answer the OP, there are many policies that will cover atleast your first ontrack "school" incident. This is EXACTLY why so many of us stress that people DO NOT call HPDE "racing" ! This simple bit of verbiage could put the end to the few policies out there that will still cover "school" incidents. The difference between the two is that HPDE is NOT TIMED. Lap timers are not allowed nor does timing and scoring operate during HPDE sessions. Granted many drivers have timers, but if it is used with discretion it should be ok.

 

As stated above. Have someone look over your policy to see what limitations there are.

 

 

As for racing...again what was stated above is true.

 

Bottom line: If you cant afford to push it off a cliff, dont put it on the track. PERIOD.

Many of us have 10-20,000$ invested in "cheap" cars. I purchased my race car for $1300 off ebay just over 3 years ago as a cosmetically challenged, bone stock street car with an inoperable clutch. Since then nearly everything has been replaced. I should have started with a newer car.

 

I have been hit by reckless drivers and only expected a " sorry man, my fault, are you ok? ". I didnt get that from the other driver, but that is all I expect.

 

Lastly, there is special insurance out there ( please do a search there are long threads on this subject) as Ken mentioned, but it is costly.

 

Get out and have fun guys, dont stress the "what if". Just be safe and be smart.

[jon dawes]

Please see also:

 

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13604&hilit=insurance

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16406&hilit=insurance

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20694&hilit=insurance

 

JD