State of TT - a "near-racer" perspective

[LateApex2121]

I wanted to gather some thoughts about what everyone thinks is the state of upper-tier TT racing in NASA is right now. My perspective is that of a person who is near to being able to compete in TT racing, but is unsure if NASA is the right fit for me.

 

Background - my car would compete in TT3. I do not have the money for mods or tuning that would take me any higher in terms of power/weight. TT3 would be it. It gets bloody expensive to get my platform, a 2011 Evo X, to higher competitive levels. So, assume TT3 is where I would be capped. I can achieve the allowed power/weight ratios on a limited budget there.

 

Now - should I even bother trying if I do not have a Corvette on Hoosiers? The evidence says I should not. In the Midwest/Great Lakes divisions, where I live, Corvettes on Hoosiers win every event they choose to enter - even extending to TT2, while in TT3 trim - and further hold every track record at every track we run. It's obvious that, as it's currently run, you won't win anything anywhere near where I live unless you a.) have a Corvette on Hoosiers, or b.) the Corvettes on Hoosiers decide not to show up for a particular event.

 

The mandatory Hoosier part is what kills it for me. I cannot afford a set of Hoosiers every 1-2 events. Sure, I can win some perhaps - less possible since they scaled back the contingency - but it's a huge gamble in my personal life. If I drop that kind of cash on tires that die that fast, and can't win some of that back quickly, I am either out of NASA racing, or getting divorced. As the 2nd isn't an option, there you have it.

 

This isn't sour grapes - I am not bemoaning the state of things. If I have it pegged correctly and it's simply a lack the funds to reasonably compete in NASA, so be it. My impression had been, when I got into all of this, that NASA was a grassroots motorsports group catering to all levels, but perhaps I was mistaken. The people are excellent, and the drivers are the best I have ever seen, but I may simply not be well-enough funded to compete here. There are plenty of TT and other race leagues which offer, say, street tire classes and such that I think I'd stand a better chance with, on balance. I welcome the chance to compete with anyone on a skills basis, but I can't win in a spending contest at present.

 

Perhaps I should have geared up to run a Spec class WTW - fair point. But irrelevant. I have what I have. I only make the post because I see upper-tier TT competition down across the board in my divisions. I cannot help but wonder if others feel as I do. Is this intentional? I don't want some kind of "nerfing" or anything like that, but I am struggling to figure out where I can realistically compete in NASA, as things stand. I am looking into other venues, and there are options - but with the time I have spent with NASA and the people here, it seems awful to consider leaving.

 

So - is there room for me? Is there somewhere I can compete, as I am able to do so, in NASA? No judgements, no criticisms - I am not trying to change or dictate to NASA what it is. I am just trying to figure out if I am honestly working towards a tangible goal, or running down a fool's path to massive disappointment. Respond, flame, criticize, whatever - I want to hear every viewpoint at this stage, I really do. I am at the crossroads, searching for that nudge in the right direction.

[circuitmstr]

The answer is always miata

sorry I dont have more advice.

[Arca_ex]

Sounds like a case of "if I can't win then why do it at all".

 

If you quit before you've even started that's a good way of never finding out.

 

What is the reason Corvettes on Hoosiers win? Is it because they are a superior platform? Not really. Is it because participation of other chassis is low? Do the drivers in other cars not stack up? Maybe it's just that the level of preparation and chassis setup and development certain drivers have done over years of racing is showing in competition?

 

Most of the time when drivers first get into doing TT, they don't go out there and automatically crush the competition. It will take time to make the necessary adjustments to the car, and most importantly the driver, to be competitive.

 

I'll give you a great example. Here in the Arizona region there is a hot shoe driver that puts a beating on nearly everyone. In two different classes, with two different cars. Want to know what the cars are? A freaking Pontiac Firebird for TT-B, and AN IROC-Z CAMARO in TT-C. Arguably two of the seemingly worst boats you can pick to drive on a roadcourse, but yet he still owns the vast majority of the track records in these things despite being up against other chassis that would be considered vastly superior.

 

Also in my Region, TT3 gets decimated by Porsches. But the drivers are FAST and have years of chassis setup, data, experience, etc etc. It's different everywhere.

 

If you want to win you have to get a bit serious. Generally you can't just show up in a weekend warrior street car and go toe to toe with dedicated race cars that sacrifice comfort for speed and are built to the limits of the rule constraints. It will take time and effort and chassis development to figure out what works best for your car and the way you drive.

 

Maybe the best thing to do right now is to stay one some affordable tires like NT01's that last awhile, and only bring out the Hoosiers when you know you can set a good, competitive, fast lap. Or consider a tire with better contingency like Maxxis, and just accept that you might not be able to win but at least you're out there getting tires and having fun.

 

You won't know for sure until you get out there and start developing the car and yourself as a driver. I wouldn't give up before you've even started.

 

 

Or just buy a Miata. Cheap, competitive, fun. Because unfortunately "Big Bore Evo" and "Affordable" will never go in the same sentence together.

[LateApex2121]

I wouldn't really say it's "if I can't win, why do it at all" - rather, I'm not a fan of exercises in futility. I want to compete. I just want a chance, and it should be a chance not padded with false economy. That's what I am trying to determine.

 

Miata may be the answer, but it's not the answer for me. Don't have one, and can't get one, unless it comes with a cracking good divorce lawyer.

 

Arca_ex, what you are saying is basically why I made this post. My natural desire would be to try it and see what happens. I do not shy away from a challenge.

 

Do Corvettes have a superior platform to build on? I know you said "not really", but again, I am not sure the evidence bears you out. I am glad something other than a Corvette crushes it in your division - but that's not the case here. In any case, it's Hoosiers or loserville - that much is clear. And that I cannot do, as long as the Corvettes here crush everything in their path. These divisions have spawned several national champs in TT in recent years, and that's awesome - we have the best of the best. Do you think the TT rules in NASA as written are equitable? If so - how do you explain the disproportionate results Corvette drivers on Hoosiers get, nationally? I professionally deal with statistics and analysis, and when over 80% of everything that can be won over the past three years has been won by a specific chassis and tire combo, I know what that means. It means I should have bought a C5 if I wanted to dominate TT3, but oh well. The bird has flown on that one.

 

Look, I am not expecting to show up as a weekend warrior and own the division - I am not a noob, or an idiot. I love to put in work. But I have seen guys drop $50k + and the work in the off-season on their race cars to try and dethrone the Vettes here and come up short, and I don't have that kind of funding. Being as it's my money, I have to be a realist .

 

I guess what I am trying to determine is if there is a form of NASA racing that is a little more equitable to the average joe than TT, that I might participate in. There may not be, and that's fine if that is the case. I suspect that, as far as NASA goes, I had one chance to pick a spec or dominant car with my money, but did not, because I didn't know all this at the time. Too late now. I can certainly try TT3 on a less-than-optimal setup - that's my current plan, because it's all I've got - but would this less-than-optimal setup actually be able to truly compete elsewhere? If so, and it is very, very possible, it must be considered.

 

A Street Tire TT class, like most everybody else offers, would be a dream come true. But shy of that, where else in NASA can I race and be competitive with what I've got? Again - I am not being critical here, or anything of the sort. Just trying to plan my year.

[Hokie]

Interesting. I am still new, but in my region I am off the pace of the Evos that have been running a few seasons.

 

I can certainly try TT3 on a less-than-optimal setup - that's my current plan, because it's all I've got

Starting out, this is the path I'm taking. I have a bone stock car with track pads and slicks.

 

Why not try scrub GTCC Continental slicks at first? They are quick, last longer, no points hit, and can be had for around $400 a set in the 305/18 size I run. No contingency money, but at least you can be quick while you're developing your car.

[brkntrxn]

I find this post interesting because it was this EXACT same thought process that got the C5 Corvettes moved out of TTB and TTA classes and eventually the TTA class eliminated all together.

 

Think about it from our perspective, we have ONLY four classes in which we can compete in TT: 3,2,1,U. NONE of those are budget friendly classes at all. Supposedly the creation of TT3 (and ST3) was to allow the Evos, BMWs, etc. the open mods they needed to compete with the PTA Corvettes. Well, that open mods list went both ways. We can't compete in GTS, or PT, or AI, so we all congregate in ST.... So it looks like we dominate. Nope, it is just the only place we can play. Period.

 

Guess what? I was in the same boat as you two years ago!!!! I was constantly getting creamed by the guys who had developed their cars AND their driving skills for many years ahead of me. And I had a fabled "Corvette on Hoosiers". My only option was to throw a ton of money at the car and build it to the new rules, which included aero, bigger tires, bigger brakes, etc.

 

I'd suggest you start hanging out with those Corvette guys and learning from them. They have years of car development, most of which translates to ANY platform.

 

Or figure out how to run TTB. I'd give anything to still play in Performance Touring... Aside from starting over.

[kbrew8991]

TTA (and lower) accounted/accounts for differences in platforms, let you run more durable tires in exchange for more parts to make up for the differences in speed, etc, etc. TTA was great, RIP. (*pours out 40oz*) TTB-F is still fun. TT1/2/3 are also fun, but they're spendy too.

 

Pick class, then pick platform (all frogs have warts, pick one and live with 'em), then compete. Sorry you got it backwards, most of us usually do when we get into this though.

[RockLobster]

Good news is, the new Hoosier compounds will last a lot longer. We were turning nearly the same lap times on 12 HC SM®7s last weekend as the 2nd heat cycle. Slowest heat cycle on those tires was the 1st. I honestly think the R7s will be competitive (maybe not 100% of the fastest lap, but competitive) for upwards of 20 heat cycles. Fantastic tire.

 

Other good news is, nobody is married to a car. Sell it and get that spec car you are admitting might have been the car to go with to compete within your budget. The happiest guys and gals i see at the track are the spec series drivers.

 

Open car classes are not for everyone.

[kbrew8991]

Spec classes aren't the only answer to "budget" either. TTF/PTF, TTE/PTE.... plenty of platform and mod choices there without breaking the bank. I'm looking at a move to Spec Miata in a couple years, it will cost more (car, opex, etc) than my current budget.

[ILIKETODRIVE]

If you're dedicated to keeping the Evo X and wanting to compete, figure out a way to drop down to TTB.

 

You can utilize...

-more weight

-less power

-smaller width tires

-lesser compounds

-etc

..to drop down.

 

The Hankook TD is a +9 tire that (based on 2nd hand info from an Evo VIII owner with TONS of track experience) blows away the NT-01 and other +7 tires. If +9 isn't low enough (or winning tires is a thing you want to pursue), the Maxxis RC-1 has a wonderful contingency program that would offset anything else.

[TowDawg]

Spec classes aren't the only answer to "budget" either. TTF/PTF, TTE/PTE.... plenty of platform and mod choices there without breaking the bank. I'm looking at a move to Spec Miata in a couple years, it will cost more (car, opex, etc) than my current budget.

 

 

You nailed it on this one. "Spec" classes can be very affordable to get into and race. However, to be a front runner and win a lot of the time, you're going to spend money. It's not uncommon for a spec miata guys to have $50k in a car. Not exactly the "budget" racing that being able to buy a used race car for $10k makes it look like.

 

Are there exceptions, absolutely. But any kind of racing becomes expensive to stay out front.

[PoBoyR6]

If you're dedicated to keeping the Evo X and wanting to compete, figure out a way to drop down to TTB.

 

You can utilize...

-more weight

-less power

-smaller width tires

-lesser compounds

-etc

..to drop down.

 

The Hankook TD is a +9 tire that (based on 2nd hand info from an Evo VIII owner with TONS of track experience) blows away the NT-01 and other +7 tires. If +9 isn't low enough (or winning tires is a thing you want to pursue), the Maxxis RC-1 has a wonderful contingency program that would offset anything else.

 

^This is solid advice given that it seems you are not willing to change out your car. TT3 can quickly turn into a money pit where tires are the last thing you're worried about. The inconvenient truth is that racing at the front in any class against top flight cars/drivers is expensive. However the points based classes offer the most amount of relief given that there are no street tire classes at the moment. But even in the B-F classes its no secret that most folks spend the majority of their points on the softest/widest tires they can run. However as previously mentioned Maxxis, NT-01 and Ventus TDs are all solid options over Hoosiers and Maxxis have a very generous contingency program going on at the moment. I wouldn't rule out Hoosiers though because of their contingency program and the fact that the R7s should last much longer as was already mentioned.

 

If you are not willing to downgrade your car (wouldn't shock me) then just give TT3 a whirl and see how it goes. Maybe carry a set of Hoosiers in case of emergency but normally run one of the fast treaded or Maxxis options. Once you are focused into a class the car/driver development over time can make a huge difference. Remember that although Corvettes are fast cars they are also incredibly popular in this country so its not a huge surprise to see the fastest/most experienced drivers are running them. Success breeds success etc. but that doesn't mean other cars can't compete with proper development & a competent driver.

 

Whatever you decide to do don't wait around wondering what could be...just get out there and get after it and see what happens. Embrace the challenge!

[Emmanuel B.]

Echoing what most have said... most of us start out with a car we like and find somewhere to compete with it. NASA is great at finding a space for anyone to play in, but your analysis has brought to light that while the EVO can play, it certainly can't win TT3 without breaking the bank. In any class, the guy who outspends you with a fresh equipment and decent talent every weekend will push the bar slightly further past your reach, so keep that in consideration as you review all the comments being shared.

 

It is evident you are committed to the Evo; however, you should seriously reconsider if you want to win TT3. Even the best pro drivers switch teams for better equipment. If you haven't seriously considered dropping down to TTB, take some time to do so. Participation may not be as good as TT3 in your region, but you may be able to take the lead in growing that class.

 

This is one of the few hobbies in the world where we literally take money and burn it up in fuel, brakes, and tires with very minimal returns. If you've identified your budget before committing, then you're in a prime position to make the right decision. There's a place in NASA for everyone to compete, it's a question of whether or not you are willing to part with the time and money to be where you would like to be.

 

PS: Work on finding some help/sponsors. With time you may be able to dedicate your entire budget to the purple crack if all other things are covered. Your success will beget more success, and more help/sponsors.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Guest

[fox4life]

If you're dedicated to keeping the Evo X and wanting to compete, figure out a way to drop down to TTB.

 

You can utilize...

-more weight

-less power

-smaller width tires

-lesser compounds

-etc

..to drop down.

 

 

 

THIS!

 

I was in the same situation you were when I started in TT. TT3 was just going to cost too much money to be competitive in with the car I had/have, and I didn't have any desire to get into "spec" racing. In the GL/MW region we have a huge field of very competitive TT3 cars, and typically a low(ish) turnout in B. I'd really like to see that change in the near future because it is a great class to run in for racers (like me) who dont have huge amounts of money to throw at their cars.

[heavychevy]

You can't be impatient in this sport. Maybe a few years back you could come in with an almost stock car and win all of the time. But many guys have several years of development in their cars. They didn't buy the car that way, they spent many years adding pieces. If you want to win, be competitive, you will have to do one or the other. Spend a lot of time, or money, or both.

 

You will find yourself in the same position if you go racing. Spec classes (especially miata, e30, and even spec iron are highly competitive). You'll have to put in a lot of work to run mid pack in the huge fields some of them draw. The one caveat is that you may be able to purchase an already competitive spec car and then just develop the driver.

[braknl8]

Do Corvettes have a superior platform to build on? I know you said "not really", but again, I am not sure the evidence bears you out. I am glad something other than a Corvette crushes it in your division - but that's not the case here. In any case, it's Hoosiers or loserville - that much is clear. And that I cannot do, as long as the Corvettes here crush everything in their path. These divisions have spawned several national champs in TT in recent years, and that's awesome - we have the best of the best. Do you think the TT rules in NASA as written are equitable? If so - how do you explain the disproportionate results Corvette drivers on Hoosiers get, nationally? I professionally deal with statistics and analysis, and when over 80% of everything that can be won over the past three years has been won by a specific chassis and tire combo, I know what that means. It means I should have bought a C5 if I wanted to dominate TT3, but oh well. The bird has flown on that one.

 

I know you probably wouldn't believe it but a base c5 stinks. Any Evo or Sti, properly developed AND driven, can run with a c5....been said plenty of x's, and it's true. Car and driver dev.

[kbrew8991]

We saw some good Evo vs Corvette battles in TTA in Texas region....

[PoBoyR6]

We saw some good Evo vs Corvette battles in TTA in Texas region....

 

and we still get them in TT3 occasionally...for a very distant 2nd place to the crushingly fast Vorshlag Mustang...see its not all about the Corvettes!

[Dysenpham]

Seems like you are comparing yourself with "built to the rule" Vettes on Hoosiers and expect to be competitive with them on 100+ TW tires. It's just not possible. What's your time delta now vs them? Hoosiers will typically pick up 3-4 secs easily over a "street tire". Not saying you should have a " built to the rules" Evo on Hoosiers, but rather trying to put it into perspective for you. IMO, W2W racing is more enjoyable and rewarding even running mid-pack vs TT where is all out Time Attack Mode- two hot laps on the stickiest tire type racing, with advantages in lower costs in consumables due to a lot less hot laps. That's why I really like TT. But if I had to choose between TT or W2W, it would be the latter because at least there's qualifying in W2W which is basically TT anyway.

[Balroks]

Sounds like your asking us to convince you of a different addiction then motorsports. If you just want to arrive and drive then stick with DE's or rentals, because the whole point of competing is to beat the other guy, and 9999/9999 times in this sport that requires cash. Those other orgs you mention have cars in them, on street tires, that have 50k+ into winning.

 

Being in the Evo community for the past decade I can attest to the sheer amount of $ and huge slinging balls it takes to go fast and stay in one piece. The Vette guys are no different though. We all spend oodles of time in our garages and various shops finding every edge possible, or simply fixing all the $hit that breaks, THAT's the grassroots part of it. We're not all pro teams with carts and crews, you'll find me and the other (non MTI ) cars down here jacking and beating things into compliance with duct tape and BFH's and whatever else is free. Simply arriving and driving back home in the same car went away with the crack addiction to go faster because as we got faster we got smarter about Safety. Even at TTB or even miata speeds the possibility of bending it and yourself driving at 10/10's loomed over our right foots to the point where you HAD to make it better, thus spend money, to continue to feed the addiction and make it home for dinner.

 

As the others said even a Spec class is a spending game, because this sport no matter the track, the org, karts, or cars costs lots of dough. At the end even in last place you can $till have major mechanical failures. A wise man once said: You can have fast, reliable, and cheap, but only 2/3 at any one time.

[JTMCK]

The Corvette in question is for sale at 31,000.00. Is that too much?

[LateApex2121]

First, I'd like to thank everyone here for the great answers - I really appreciate all the advice!

 

Again - I am not complaining about anything. I hate whiners I love racing and NASA. I was just looking for a sanity check, is maybe a better way of putting it. I've learned a lot in this thread.

 

I do like the TTB idea, really. That's an idea I'll look into...

 

The delta between me and a podium finish in the class is interesting. It's about 8-9 seconds or so. Right now, I know the dev into the car is not anywhere near mature - I'm 60 HP down from my target power/weight, the car is about 100-120 lbs heavier than I plan on it being in race trim, and I'm running on 2yr old street tires that maybe have 1-2 weekends left in them (in some ways, the fact that I have a full tire replacement purchase imminent is partly what got me thinking about all this). I don't realistically know what I'd run with the work completed, on fresh race tires. I think I'd have the car to be in the ballpark, and just keep focusing on the driver mod. If the car prep gets me anywhere close, I'll find a way.

 

I think I will finish the build work and stick with the original plan of trying TT3. Again, I don't really know how close I can run with the basic race prep finished and decent tires. Won't really know until I try it. And I have much to learn, to be sure. If I can't get close, though, then I will go full-bore into TTB - that's fantastic advice, really.

 

Thanks again, everyone, for the great advice. See ya in the twisties!

[ILIKETODRIVE]

1 last piece of advice, based on my own experience: Hold off on getting any tires (or get them ASAP) so you can run something fresh at a track you're good at and have a fair amount of experience at. I did this at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway (CVR). The first time there I ran really used shaved Kumho XS. The next two times there I ran shaved RA1s. Both times I dropped about 2 seconds (first from simply the compound, next from utilizing it better). I then got an opportunity to go again with lightly used SM6s. I dropped another 2 seconds (2:10.1 to 2:08.4 to 2:06.6 to 2:04.444 [TTE record]). That's 6 seconds with used Hoosiers over used street tires.

 

You might find out that 8-9 seconds is really 3-4 seconds on fresh 80-100 treadwear tires. Add Hoosiers and whp and drop weight and you might be nipping at their behinds.

[kbrew8991]

there's more to doing well in TT3 besides getting to the weight/hp ratio limits. See also: Terry/Vorschlag Mustang continuing to find big chunks of speed despite being at the ratio limit since the start of *last* season. Tires, suspension & shock stuff, aero...

 

Don't do too much that you can't undo for TTB, or can't resell and recoup a good chunk of $$ from.

[LateApex2121]

1 last piece of advice, based on my own experience: Hold off on getting any tires (or get them ASAP) so you can run something fresh at a track you're good at and have a fair amount of experience at. I did this at Chuckwalla Valley Raceway (CVR). The first time there I ran really used shaved Kumho XS. The next two times there I ran shaved RA1s. Both times I dropped about 2 seconds (first from simply the compound, next from utilizing it better). I then got an opportunity to go again with lightly used SM6s. I dropped another 2 seconds (2:10.1 to 2:08.4 to 2:06.6 to 2:04.444 [TTE record]). That's 6 seconds with used Hoosiers over used street tires.

 

You might find out that 8-9 seconds is really 3-4 seconds on fresh 80-100 treadwear tires. Add Hoosiers and whp and drop weight and you might be nipping at their behinds.

 

Now that's an encouraging story I'll be doing just that - my next event in a few weeks is a track I haven't had that much chance to run, and I've got a weekend left in the old street tires. The event after that is a track I'm very familiar and comfortable with. I'll have my tires in line for that one. Should have my HP closer to goal as well - this will be a good test.

 

there's more to doing well in TT3 besides getting to the weight/hp ratio limits. See also: Terry/Vorschlag Mustang continuing to find big chunks of speed despite being at the ratio limit since the start of *last* season. Tires, suspension & shock stuff, aero...

 

Don't do too much that you can't undo for TTB, or can't resell and recoup a good chunk of $$ from.

 

Terry's a real inspiration, love his product and results. Sadly I didn't get into cars as a kid or a teen, the old man didn't do jack with 'em. Picked it up later in life. Instead, I got myself over-educated and now run a tech consulting company. But if I had it all to do over again with the benefit of hindsight, I would have had way more fun getting my business degree AND and an ASE cert, then opening a speed shop.

 

But yeah, I have a healthy respect for what all I don't know about the tuning. The weight and power/weight ratios are overall goals that will help a lot, but I know optimizing what I have will be the overall key. I'm reading Carroll Smith's rather excellent books on tuning and racecar dev, and trying to pick up what I can from anyone who will talk to me. Once I have a better grasp on the cause and effect of certain things, my wife's never going to get me out of the garage...

 

Reverting the car back to where I can consider TTB will be a massive chore already, but I have saved every stock part, so it is doable, if it comes to that. Glad I didn't dump those stockers. Only thing I couldn't save was one of my rear sway bar endlinks, which was bent and rusted all to hell, and I ended up having to drill it out and cut it off. Hopefully under those circumstances I wouldn't get dinged for replacing them.

 

Thanks again, both of you, for the excellent advice!