brkntrxn Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 To give you some more insight in the current crop of ST3 and ST2 Corvette racers, at least in the Southeast and upper Midwest, we were all TTA/PTA cars from 2008-2012. Here are some things to think about when you look at our cars: - Because our C5 Z06 cars were +7pt cars in TTA/PTA, we HAD to get ingenious on building the cars to the limits of the rules. We didn't have the points to throw big parts at the cars. We learned to add every free mod the PT rule book allowed. Tiny clutch that made the car a pain to drive, no windows, lexan, no creature comforts, beefed up wheel bearings, ECM tuning, weight pulled off the nose in order to add lead to the rear, etc. - No extra hp parts, in fact most of us detuned slightly to make hp:wt. So we had to learn to drive with less power than a typical Corvette. - No big brake kits, so we had to learn how to manage our stock brakes during a race to prevent using them up or fading. - We had to live with TRANSVERSE leaf spring suspensions. You know, the same suspension setup in one of those buckboard wagons from the mid 1800s?!?! - OEM shocks. A big upgrade for us was to buy a set of OEM 2004 Z06 shocks, LOL. - No aero... At all. - In order to run sticky A6s, we had to go down to 275s from the class allowed 295s. So mid-corner grip was massively lacking. And we had to be judicious with the loud pedal on corner exit. - We had to use 2 pts of our allotment to put sway bars on the car because they leaned so much on the sticky tires that we would get fender rub AND drag the plastic air dams on the ground in the corners. All of this made us better drivers. And once we were forced out of Performance Touring and into the Super Touring classes, we could spend the extra $20k to get rid of the warts of our stock platform. So now we are all pretty good drivers in no-excuses cars. Most of my competitors are better than me and are deadly fast in their cars. So, I am not bragging on the C5 Mafia, I am explaining that we have had years of driver and car development. The things they have learned translates to any platform and you should go hang out with them and pick up some tricks and lessons. I personally love the mix up of cars in ST. Makes for fun racing. Here in the Southeast, we have been having some great Vette vs Thunder Roadster match ups in ST3. And there is a Lotus in ST2 that is extremely fast and his braking distances are unbelievable. If I wanted to hang out with a bunch of Corvette guys, I would put on my gold chains and toupee and go to a car show. -Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZELISE Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 One other thing to think about. If it is ever wet for all of the TT sessions in one day, you would have a major advantage. You might want to get a set Hoosier wets, sign up for Hoosier contingency, keep the stickers handy and plan on beating up on the Rwd cars in the rain. Do this a few times and then you have a set of super fast tires to run in the dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 In for the amusement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperkins Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 In for the amusement. <------- Corvette driver that has sacrificed beyond imagination to be competitive in this stupid hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LateApex2121 Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 In for the amusement. <------- Corvette driver that has sacrificed beyond imagination to be competitive in this stupid hobby. Actually, I'm in for your story with your Vette - learning over here Do tell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fair Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Wait... Corvettes are fast in TT3?? I kid, I kid! Of course those cars are easy to make fast - the C4/C5/C6/C7 are purpose built sports cars with the engines behind the front axle centerline, a very low CG, flat botom chassis, composite bodywork, exceptionally good suspensions/geometries, and proven V8 power plants. The factory supports top tier racing and aero development in the C5.R, C6.R and C7.R programs. I love Corvettes, and I've worked on and raced in many and owned several. I tested with a customer's WRL series endurance C4 last weekend, shown above. If you were to choose to build a purpose built-TT1/2/3 car and cost were no object, would I recommend starting with a C4/5/6/7? Of course I would. Why? They are easy to make them fast in TT1/2/3, but are they beatable? Absolutely. I can think of a number of chassis that can beast a Corvette in TT1/2/3, and I've seen it done in BMWs (Mayfield's win at Miller in 2013) and other chassis are capable. Its all about how dedicated both the builder and driver are to winning. I'd wager you could win TT3 in damn near anything, if you wanted it badly enough. That sounds idealistic, but the variety of chassis running fast in TT3 Nationally is just too diverse. The top TT3 cars are dedicated race cars, of course, and in 2013 this was no exception. Mayfield's BMW had an engine out of a later generation BMW (S54) and the Z06 in P2 was a well developed race car as well, which won ST3 that year. Numbered classes are generally won by the race cars. Ignoring the 2014 NASA Nationals East (as everyone in TT3 seemed to do this year - only one TT3 showed up, and his time wasn't counted, for unknown reasons) the field in TT3 was both large and quite diverse at the 2013 Nationals (see above and below). There was all sorts of variety in TT3 last year, from BMWs to Corvettes, Subarus to EVOs, and even the stick axle Mustangs. It was a huge class, TT3 even beat TT1 last year. Our TT3 fields at NASA Texas events have been equally as large and diverse, but we've been able to stay ahead of the TT3 Vettes, and often many of the TT2 and TT1 Corvettes - in a 3800 pound, solid axle, street legal, street driven Mustang with a stock engine. How? I think it really is all in the "suspension, tires and aero". It doesn't hurt that I own a shop that specializes in "suspension, tires and aero", but there isn't anything on our car that is magic or hidden - I have shared it all publicly in our popular S197 build thread on 4 different forums. We have a dozen or more customer's we've built cars for that have more hours and development in their cars than our own (having our crew working on my car pays us $0 - in fact, it costs us money). We usually only work on our TT3 Mustang when I tear something up, heh. there's more to doing well in TT3 besides getting to the weight/hp ratio limits. See also: Terry/Vorshlag Mustang continuing to find big chunks of speed despite being at the ratio limit since the start of *last* season. Tires, suspension & shock stuff, aero... Yep, we have dropped all of our old TT3 records from 2013 (which we set at all tracks on the Texas schedule) by 2-3 seconds in 2014 by doing the following: + Adding weight (to allow for a tiny bit more power) + Adding tire width (up to the 345mm Hoosier A6, the largest they make, to deal with all of the weight!) + Updating the aero (real front splitter, ducted hood, better rear wing) Our car still has the full interior, stock transmission/clutch, and a bone stock engine. We have never pulled a valve cover, and its still under factory warranty. With some exhaust improvements we went up from 419 whp to 432 whp this season, which made our weight go from 3770 lbs to 3802 lbs (the TT3 modifiers also changed for this season) with driver and ballast. We always race on brand new A6 tires, and save the 1-weekend old A6s for other events and testing. But if you can win 4 each weekend you can stay on fresh rubber. And while we got beat at Miller by both a BMW and a C5 Z06, and I'm sure they have dropped time in 2014 - but 3 seconds? I dunno, I think the S197 can still be competitive against these two cars. I can always bench race my way to a win, heh! But to the OP's original question - don't lose hope. The EVO X is still a very capable chassis, with the right mods. Having raced in an EVO X for 2 seasons, I would say these cars could easily get the job done, with the right suspension, the best tires, good aero, and a dedicated testing schedule. Would it still resemble a stock EVO X or be a daily driven car? Not really. But then again, neither does our car or any other top tier TT3 car. In stock form the 2008 EVO X we raced in was 3600 pounds (same as our 2011 Mustang), had skinny tires, and super soft suspension. It handled like crap (see above) - just like our 2011 Mustang GT did. But The EVO has a great motor, a good AWD system (the "get out of jail free", never-dyno'd style of drivetrain) and a turbo. We raced the X in TTA and the car set some track records back in 2008-09, and I think with some development it would still get the job done in TT3. The same formula would apply to the EVO X that I use on everything else: Lower the weight, maximize power, use the widest tire you can stand (then add another 30mm), maximize downforce and minimize drag, spend real money on dampers, and use enough spring rate to allow it to corner flat and not bottom out with downforce. Stock 2008 EVO X MR with DSG trans I'd put an EVO X on a serious diet, of course. Drop the weight down to around 3000 pounds, which is do-able in a dedicated race car build. Run it on at least a 275mm Hoosier, which fits under stock fenders (in TTA the Vorshlag EVO X ran 18x10.5" wheels under stock fenders). Then, when you get beat, build it to run a 315mm tire and flare the car correctly to cover the front of each tire. Maximize downforce with a splitter and wing, at the very least. And then run as much power as you can afford. Remember: AWD cars are never dyno'd at the track, which means you can run as much horsepower as your conscience will allow. Its a stupid loophole, but it exists. Anyway, that's just my "two cents". Which to win TT3 in an EVO X, would probably cost another $25-30K, heh. We never spent anywhere nearly that much on the EVO X we ran, but it had very good shocks, camber plates, almost big enough wheels, and plenty of power. It just needed to lose a few hundred pounds and a bit of aero work in today's classes. Good luck, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Roberts Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) My quick two cents... As alluded to in this thread, with some BBS surfing you can figure out within a couple of seconds on your approximate car how much faster a A6/A7 is than whatever TW100 tire (Nitto NT01, Maxxis). Start participating in TT with the TW100 tires and keep in mind how fast you need to be on those to have a shot at a top time. For example, I know I need to get within 6-7 seconds (~2 minute track) on NT01s on my car before it is time to put on the A6s. There is a little more to it, but I'll keep the example simple. And, by the way, NT01s are great to drive on compared to R6s and A6s. First of all they communicate better, and it is comparatively very easy to take them over the limit and reel them back in again. Thus they are great for learning and also a LOT more fun to drive on. And they really do not fall off much. NT01s can be used down to the cords with ~1 second fall off. I have also found the car balance (understeer versus oversteer) is very close to what I would get with NT01s versus A6s so they can be used to work on your setup as well. It is mind-numbing how much more grip an A6 has versus an NT-01. Stupid, crazy grip. But then again you get 2-3 laps and you are done. NT01s you can stay out for the whole session and thus get a lot more practice time. And have more fun. Edited October 1, 2014 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balroks Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Why do I feel like Terry just lectured me with a power point slide in some shady hotel conf center, and the only beverage available was bourbon lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkwso Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Why do I feel like Terry just lectured me with a power point slide in some shady hotel conf center, and the only beverage available was bourbon lol. It was probably cheap bourbon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retlaw Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Why do I feel like Terry just lectured me with a power point slide in some shady hotel conf center, and the only beverage available was bourbon lol. It was probably cheap bourbon. and it sounded like (I don't know him, so I'm not sure) he was ok with "cheating" Remember: AWD cars are never dyno'd at the track, which means you can run as much horsepower as your conscience will allow. Its a stupid loophole, but it exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arca_ex Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Why do I feel like Terry just lectured me with a power point slide in some shady hotel conf center, and the only beverage available was bourbon lol. It was probably cheap bourbon. and it sounded like (I don't know him, so I'm not sure) he was ok with "cheating" Remember: AWD cars are never dyno'd at the track, which means you can run as much horsepower as your conscience will allow. Its a stupid loophole, but it exists. And just because 2WD cars get dyno'd at the track that makes it impossible for them to cheat by increasing power on track? Give me a break dude. If someone wants to cheat, they're going to cheat, whether it be in a 2WD car or an AWD car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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