National Staff Greg G. Posted December 9, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 9, 2016 Greg, Would these fenders be considered Illegal? https://s27.postimg.org/inuf999sj/New_M3_23.jpg No. They are okay. Hey, look, more canards.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calif_Kid Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Greg, Would these fenders be considered Illegal? https://s27.postimg.org/inuf999sj/New_M3_23.jpg No. They are okay. Hey, look, more canards.... Greg - it looks like the back of the orange flare in the above picture is cutout to allow air to escape. I know that bolt on/riveted flares are allowed, but if they are added, then can the rear area of the flare be cut/vented? I'm guessing that it can be as the flares are being added on top of the existing fender, but just wanted to check. Also, I'm assuming that the rear of the fenders can't be modified from the OEM shape to allow air to escape from the wheel well. Thanks!! - Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NammyBoy Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 I'm sorry but I don't understand how a vented fender is not allowed but somehow adding fender flares that have vents on them are--that BMW has fender vents both on top of the fender and posteriorly. I am assuming that the underlying fender is being cut to actually make use of the added wheel well size by the addition, thus in effect making it no different aerodynamically from getting aftermarket fenders that come with vents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chase J. Posted December 10, 2016 Members Share Posted December 10, 2016 Greg, Would these fenders be considered Illegal? https://s27.postimg.org/inuf999sj/New_M3_23.jpg No. They are okay. Hey, look, more canards.... Speaking of, any new news on CR front lip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roninph3 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 Jim/California Kid....those are not vents on top of my fenders, They are bumps. There are no holes. No aero advantage on the Bumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 12, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 12, 2016 Greg, Would these fenders be considered Illegal? https://s27.postimg.org/inuf999sj/New_M3_23.jpg No. They are okay. Hey, look, more canards.... Greg - it looks like the back of the orange flare in the above picture is cutout to allow air to escape. I know that bolt on/riveted flares are allowed, but if they are added, then can the rear area of the flare be cut/vented? I'm guessing that it can be as the flares are being added on top of the existing fender, but just wanted to check. Also, I'm assuming that the rear of the fenders can't be modified from the OEM shape to allow air to escape from the wheel well. Thanks!! - Jim Yeh, I couldn't see the vents on my phone screen. While flares are permitted, I would think that any "flare" that has aero components, like vents, that are not permitted on the OEM fender, would also not be permitted. We may need to add some wording to the "flares" allowance. And, there is no reason for "bumps" on the top of the flares, other than to act as a vortex generator, that would clearly not be permitted, because it is not specifically listed as being allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrsideways Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Jim/California Kid....those are not vents on top of my fenders,They are bumps. There are no holes. No aero advantage on the Bumps. Even so if they were vents, they are vents ontop of a non required flare. So whats the difference between venting a flare and removing a flare? Roll up like this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countryboyshane Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 Understanding that the only aero mods allowed will be a front splitter and rear wing, if the front splitter I intend to add already has side dive planes (wickers), is this allowed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 13, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 13, 2016 Understanding that the only aero mods allowed will be a front splitter and rear wing, if the front splitter I intend to add already has side dive planes (wickers), is this allowed? Did you read the rules, or are you just stating what you think you have read here? It is not correct that the only aero mods allowed are a front splitter and wing. And, the rules define what is permitted as a front splitter, and it does not include dive planes. Here they are as published: 2) ST4 Specific Aerodynamic Modification Allowances (if not using OEM Mod Factor): Aerodynamic parts/devices/aides shall be limited in ST4 to the following: a) All of the items listed above in section 7.3.2.D.1) “OEM Aero” Modification Factor. b) Vertical front air dam (5º tolerance) that follows the outermost edge of the front and side bodywork/fascia. c) Single flat, horizontal front splitter that protrudes no greater than 4” from the vehicle. d) Single rear wing or spoiler that does not exceed a height of 8” above the roof line, or width greater than the vehicle’s body width, or end plates greater than 12”. e) Modified BTM, non-Base Trim Model (non-BTM), or replaced front fascia (unless specifically approved in Appendix B: i) May have nothing attached to it other than specifically allowed items (above). ii) May not have canards/winglets molded into it. iii) Any item that is molded into the fascia that functions as an airfoil, deflector, dive plane, or vortex generator and extends 2" or more past the outline of the immediate surrounding fascia is prohibited. To inspect: a plumb line run across the entire surface of the fascia and bumper shall not have any such item that extends 2” past the line when viewed from above. f) Cutting/removal of the rear bumper cover/fascia where it does not cover the rear frame/bumper cross beam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countryboyshane Posted December 13, 2016 Share Posted December 13, 2016 OK thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiePig Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 Speaking of, any new news on CR front lip? Car is sitting on jackstands with front bumper taken off, sheet of alumilite sitting against the wall, splitter mounts made. I just don't want to start till I know what I can do. 6 weeks till the first event in our region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 16, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 16, 2016 Speaking of, any new news on CR front lip? Car is sitting on jackstands with front bumper taken off, sheet of alumilite sitting against the wall, splitter mounts made. I just don't want to start till I know what I can do. 6 weeks till the first event in our region. Not getting anywhere with this--chisel and nizzle probably the best tack at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chase J. Posted December 16, 2016 Members Share Posted December 16, 2016 Speaking of, any new news on CR front lip? Car is sitting on jackstands with front bumper taken off, sheet of alumilite sitting against the wall, splitter mounts made. I just don't want to start till I know what I can do. 6 weeks till the first event in our region. Not getting anywhere with this--chisel and nizzle probably the best tack at this time. Well, I'd be happy to help with information to make it legal if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flier129 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Greg, Would this style of air dam be legal for an E36M? The stock chin spoiler is at a higher angle than this one, it's relatively vertical so I feel like it's not going to act as a dive plane, but I'm trying to get the splitter down lower since I've lost so much front downforce after canards were banned. I can't exactly afford to buy one and measure it - it would be cheaper to keep my dive planes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlaymanmoto Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Greg G. Will you help me out please. I ran in TTB last season and was planning on switching to TT4 this season. I read this entire monsterous thread and still am a little fuzzy on what is going on with the aero in particular to my setup. The easiest way I can think of clearing it up is showing you a picture of what my car has and asking you if it is legal for TT4 or not. If not, what class is it legal because I dont want to change the car much. Here are the pictures of my car's aero setup... Here are two of my diffuser... Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 18, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 18, 2016 Greg, Would this style of air dam be legal for an E36M? The stock chin spoiler is at a higher angle than this one, it's relatively vertical so I feel like it's not going to act as a dive plane, but I'm trying to get the splitter down lower since I've lost so much front downforce after canards were banned. I can't exactly afford to buy one and measure it - it would be cheaper to keep my dive planes Marcus, I don't know that it would make the "5 degree" standard as an air dam, but it looks like it would comply with the 2" rule: e) Modified BTM, non-Base Trim Model (non-BTM), or replaced front fascia (unless specifically approved in Appendix B: i) May have nothing attached to it other than specifically allowed items (above). ii) May not have canards/winglets molded into it. iii) Any item that is molded into the fascia that functions as an airfoil, deflector, dive plane, or vortex generator and extends 2" or more past the outline of the immediate surrounding fascia is prohibited. To inspect: a plumb line run across the entire surface of the fascia and bumper shall not have any such item that extends 2” past the line when viewed from above. Of course, an even better option is to make a vertical air dam below or attached to the lower part of the fascia that drops the front splitter even lower....I have found that builders will make these generally for less than it costs to buy a pre-fabbed one from a company on-line--but "your mileage may vary" on that one depending on your access to reasonably priced shops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 18, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 18, 2016 Greg G. Will you help me out please. I ran in TTB last season and was planning on switching to TT4 this season. I read this entire monsterous thread and still am a little fuzzy on what is going on with the aero in particular to my setup. The easiest way I can think of clearing it up is showing you a picture of what my car has and asking you if it is legal for TT4 or not. If not, what class is it legal because I dont want to change the car much. Here are the pictures of my car's aero setup... Here are two of my diffuser... Any help would be greatly appreciated!!! So, obviously, you could turn the wick up, and run in ST3 with that aero, but would require an aftermarket turbo--Nice looking SRT4 by the way. For ST4: Front canards need to be taken off. Side skirts need to be taken off. Rear Diffuser needs to be taken off. It looks like the rear wing width is okay, but can't tell 100% from the photo. I think that's all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianbarberi Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Greg, Would this style of air dam be legal for an E36M? The stock chin spoiler is at a higher angle than this one, it's relatively vertical so I feel like it's not going to act as a dive plane, but I'm trying to get the splitter down lower since I've lost so much front downforce after canards were banned. I can't exactly afford to buy one and measure it - it would be cheaper to keep my dive planes I have that lip, and it is angled roughly 30 deg, so I believe it is illegal for TT4 as it is more than 5 deg. It does pass the 2" rule by a hair, but that doesn't matter. It worked great for TTB when taking the points for air dam, splitter and canards, but I'll need to take it off for TT4. If you find a vertical air dam for the E36 let me know. I have not had any luck yet, and will probably hire a shop to build one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCathers Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Of course, an even better option is to make a vertical air dam below or attached to the lower part of the fascia that drops the front splitter even lower....I have found that builders will make these generally for less than it costs to buy a pre-fabbed one from a company on-line--but "your mileage may vary" on that one depending on your access to reasonably priced shops. That was actually me posting from Marcus' computer regarding my TTB M3. From the photos it appears as though it would stay well within 2" of the outline of the OE fascia... then the splitter can extend 4" from the base of that air dam, correct? Semi rhetorical question, I apologize. Ive gotta be honest - I know these rules make perfect sense to you, and it must seem like everyone is living on mars based on all the questions and concerns.. but from where I'm sitting, this crusade against a spending war on front aero in TT4 really seems to have turned into a cluster, and I'm really concerned it's going to hurt TT4 and make it more difficult to make Hoosier contingency... ...and all of it was essentially to prevent people from putting front canards and custom air dams on the cars... now you're telling me to get a custom fabbed front air dam... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlaymanmoto Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 So, obviously, you could turn the wick up, and run in ST3 with that aero, but would require an aftermarket turbo--Nice looking SRT4 by the way. For ST4: Front canards need to be taken off. Side skirts need to be taken off. Rear Diffuser needs to be taken off. It looks like the rear wing width is okay, but can't tell 100% from the photo. I think that's all. Thanks! I figured you would get a kick out of it. Rumor has it that you like these cars. haha. Ok, yeah, thanks for the help. I guess Ill just jump up to TT3. Im gonna be kinda screwed on the power but I am not going to take the aero off so I guess I really dont have a choice. Maybe I can find some bigger injectors, turn the boost up and re-tune it. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roninph3 Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Of course, an even better option is to make a vertical air dam below or attached to the lower part of the fascia that drops the front splitter even lower....I have found that builders will make these generally for less than it costs to buy a pre-fabbed one from a company on-line--but "your mileage may vary" on that one depending on your access to reasonably priced shops. That was actually me posting from Marcus' computer regarding my TTB M3. From the photos it appears as though it would stay well within 2" of the outline of the OE fascia... then the splitter can extend 4" from the base of that air dam, correct? Semi rhetorical question, I apologize. Ive gotta be honest - I know these rules make perfect sense to you, and it must seem like everyone is living on mars based on all the questions and concerns.. but from where I'm sitting, this crusade against a spending war on front aero in TT4 really seems to have turned into a cluster, and I'm really concerned it's going to hurt TT4 and make it more difficult to make Hoosier contingency... ...and all of it was essentially to prevent people from putting front canards and custom air dams on the cars... now you're telling me to get a custom fabbed front air dam... I agree 100%...All of this nitpicking about Aero is disappointing to me. I really don't see why we could not have simply gone with the tire restrictions and 12:1 Power to weight and called it a day. If people have non-slotted fenders they can easy slot them......I get the canards restriction. I'm now going to be out 1K changing out my fenders from "aero" slotted ones to non-slotted, and I will bet anyone here 1000.00 I will NOT go any slower. This was supposed to be an easy translation from ST3-ST4, largely dependent upon a lower power to weight. We will see how it goes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39088/1 Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 For ST4: Side skirts need to be taken off. Rear Diffuser needs to be taken off. so not specifically listed in 2) ST4 specific aerodynamic modification allowances means illegal. what about oem parts like the bmw m3 side skirt and the lotus elise rear diffuser? will those aero parts be allowed because they are not considered modifications? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 19, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 19, 2016 I agree 100%...All of this nitpicking about Aero is disappointing to me. I really don't see why we could not have simply gone with the tire restrictions and 12:1 Power to weight and called it a day. If people have non-slotted fenders they can easy slot them......I get the canards restriction. I'm now going to be out 1K changing out my fenders from "aero" slotted ones to non-slotted, and I will bet anyone here 1000.00 I will NOT go any slower. This was supposed to be an easy translation from ST3-ST4, largely dependent upon a lower power to weight. We will see how it goes.... Actually, this was never about a transition from ST3 to ST4. It was about a transition from PTB and PTC to ST4. If the "aero" slotted fenders have no performance value, then you never should have wasted your money/time putting them on in the first place. The nitpicking is by those who don't like certain restrictions, but like others--like no canards. But, those that like "no canards" will not be happy when someone shows up with a car with canards that were molded into a custom made fascia. Without the restrictions, this is what we could have in ST4/TT4 at 12:1--guess its time for a repost: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 19, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 19, 2016 For ST4: Side skirts need to be taken off. Rear Diffuser needs to be taken off. so not specifically listed in 2) ST4 specific aerodynamic modification allowances means illegal. what about oem parts like the bmw m3 side skirt and the lotus elise rear diffuser? will those aero parts be allowed because they are not considered modifications? If it comes on the base trim model of a vehicle, then it is okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 19, 2016 Author National Staff Share Posted December 19, 2016 Greg, Would this style of air dam be legal for an E36M? The stock chin spoiler is at a higher angle than this one, it's relatively vertical so I feel like it's not going to act as a dive plane, but I'm trying to get the splitter down lower since I've lost so much front downforce after canards were banned. I can't exactly afford to buy one and measure it - it would be cheaper to keep my dive planes I have that lip, and it is angled roughly 30 deg, so I believe it is illegal for TT4 as it is more than 5 deg. It does pass the 2" rule by a hair, but that doesn't matter. It worked great for TTB when taking the points for air dam, splitter and canards, but I'll need to take it off for TT4. If you find a vertical air dam for the E36 let me know. I have not had any luck yet, and will probably hire a shop to build one. Why do you think that if it doesn't pass the 2" rule that it doesn't matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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