Chevy Gen III small block in CMC2 question

[mitchntx1548534714]

How do you verify what's on the paper? And we don't have a no teardown rule. Read rule 7.7:

 

"NASA tech inspectors and CMC Officials shall have the right to request disassembly or any other procedure required to verify vehicle compliance with these rules including a dynamometer re-certification, or running of monitoring equipment."

 

That certainly covers pulling float bowls to check jets.

 

Verify tuning by no SES light and a dyno sheet. Pretty much like any one who gets questioned.

 

So answer the question ... which is easier? Checking timing with a light? Pulling float bowls? No light and a verification sheet?

 

Why are so many afraid of going into the ECU? It's not some sort of black magic.

 

It's already been shown that someone outside of the rules will be ferreted out and punished accordingly. Don't afrqaid of marching forward with the times. The 21st century isn't all thqat bad ...

[bsim]

There's two maps (at least) in the ECU, right? One closed and one open loop.

 

Let's say I build a 350 hp monster, and use the closed loop map to retard timing and fuel pulses to get me under the HP limit. The open loop map restores those values for max power. Then all I have to do is use one of the sensor values to swap between the two. Flip a switch 350 HP, flip it back, legal for Dyno runs.

 

Very easy to do.

[Glenn]

two things Brad -

who says that aint happening now? if it isnt, its only due to the honesty of those racing w/ us.

making adjustments to emissions stuff only legal in CMC rules still makes fuel and timing stuff taboo. its the same honesty that you all have faith in that i'm not doing it now that you should have faith in that i'll only mod emissions stuff.

 

FYI - TPI and 93 LT1 stuff can be done w/ free software found on the net and a very common eprom cable. basically, its a simple DIY at home deal. whos to say its not already happening now.

[King Matt1548534716]

 

So answer the question ... which is easier?

OK, it's easier to leave the rules the way they are. The second we open up the class to ECU mods we will instantly create classes of "haves" and "have-nots" based on the assumption that huge advantages, real or imagined, are to be found inside that "black box." There is quite a bit of advantage that can be gained by tuning, whether the goal is to cheat like Brad showed above, or just by tweaking the power curves to stay under the limits. Sure, people could be doing it now provided they have access to the right resources, but changing this rule is no different than dozens of other topics that have come up over the years, from aftermarket suspension mods to headers, cams, etc. Once one person has it, everyone else will want it, and all we have done is raise the level of the playing field at a greater cost to everyone.

[Adam Ginsberg]

So answer the question ... which is easier? Checking timing with a light? Pulling float bowls? No light and a verification sheet?

 

"Easy" has nothing to do with it.

 

Why are so many afraid of going into the ECU? It's not some sort of black magic.

 

It's already been shown that someone outside of the rules will be ferreted out and punished accordingly. Don't afrqaid of marching forward with the times. The 21st century isn't all thqat bad ...

 

Mitch - good lord man, you still don't get it. No one is "afraid" of getting inside the ECU. I used to do some basic tuning on my street car.

 

The problem is simple - once you allow cracking into the ECU, for anything, you open Pandora's Box. Since the GM ECU doesn't go into limp mode with an SES light, and the VATS can be bypassed with a resistor, there's no need to reprogram the ECU for any reason.

 

"We can do X, why not Y?"

 

Right now, we only have the basic ability to seal the ECU to prevent tampering. We don't have the tools/software (yet) to verify stock ECU programming - that doesn't mean at some point in the future CMC won't have that ability.

 

Stay out of the ECU, period.

Edited May 26, 2008 by Guest

[Dave Schotz]

From a cost perspective you are absolutely right! And I agree, I have a local dyno & tuner at my call... Would probably cost a lot to other's!

 

Which brings me back to just one issue, then 'we' the club need to make an investment in ecu reading equipment to ensure no one is disabling or modifying anything in the ecu.

 

It's still something that would need to be done whether the rule is changed or not.

 

Next Brad's example is the other reason we need this type of monitoring. Any tuner would show the parameters of the ecu and ensure legitimacy.

 

IMHO there are a few basics that need to be checked:

 

Timing (distributor cars)

Jets/restrictor plate sizes

Ecu flashes

 

This isn't to say this has to happen at all local races, but at the championship it sure should.

[mitchntx1548534714]

"Easy" has nothing to do with it.

 

Well then quit referring to how "easy" it is to police.

 

Checking the distributor is easy, and it's been done. Carb jetting can be done as well, but only a handful of cars still run old skool.

 

Yes Adam ... I certainly "get it". Your "it" is head in the sand, afraid of change and mine is get it figured out now because it will happen some day.

 

I have a solution ... 1 tuner, an agreement with NASA at a national level, lock the PCM from changes. That is a plateau, no slopes involved.

 

It saves a lot of grief for ECM controlled cars when they get choked down with restrictor plates. Washing the cylinder walls with fuel from my restricted OBD2 ECM was a premature demise of the original race motor in my car. There is no reason a 350 SBC running at 230 HP and to 5K shouldn't last the life of a race car.

 

I would really like to allow the computer to tell me when the oil level was low, coolant level was low, oil pressure was low, coolant temps were high ... but I can't. With a standing SES light, there is no way of knowing.

 

So this "budget" class requires $400 worth of gauges just to redundantly monitor engine systems.

 

Matt ... you will always have lemmings. Try as hard as you might to legislate them, someone will always create a path for a lemming to follow.

 

You and Adam see the glass half empty opening a Pandora's box full of cheaters emerging to garner all those $.50 medals. I see the glass half full and applaud the cars we'll save from ill running motors.

 

It doesn't take altering an ECU to be caught over the line, does it.

[Glenn]

Adam - the VATS cannot be defeted w/ a resistor. the key can be eliminated w/ a resistor. the VATS Module would still have to be in the car (as its the one looking for the resistance value), unless the PCM has the VATS turned off. this still causes us to run the risk of a missed race for somehting that can easily be turned off.

[Glenn]

Mitch - you will not get a SES for low oil level, oil pressure, or coolant temps. those are all separate warning lights in the OEM dash.

and what we are asking for here (emissions delete from the PCM) will not fix the rich air/fuel issue the LT1's have w/ a plate in place.

 

the point is guys - if people are gonna do things that are not legal (fuel and timing map improvements) then they are still gonna do them even if deleting VATS, EVAP, EGR, and other emissions stuff are legal or not. i just want to know when i've lost a knock sensor, MAP sensor, MAF, TPS, Idle Air solenoid, misfire on cylinders 1-8. most anyone of those things will surely kill my power and possibly contribute to a shortened engine life.

sure i'm the one who decided to run a more complicated platform, but there is no reason i should miss a race due to me not knowing what the issue is when it pops up. seems like some here will gladly take a win and be happy w/ it when the best driver is broken in the pits.

 

Adam - i surely remember you upset w/ the EFI cars having a factory rev limiter when the carb cars did not. you led the way in getting aftermarket rev limiters for carb motors legal. this is no different. you have the benefit of not missing a race due to a minor sensor failure, but are afforded one of the benefits of running a EFI car. should i not be afforded the same courtesy? having the ability to monitor my PCM and engine health w/ my emissions stuff removed w/out a constant SES light?

 

from where i stand, if you wanted a rev limeter, you should have went EFI and not to the rules board and asked for a change. werent you on that board at the time?

[mitchntx1548534714]

Mitch - you will not get a SES for low oil level, oil pressure, or coolant temps. those are all separate warning lights in the OEM dash.

and what we are asking for here (emissions delete from the PCM) will not fix the rich air/fuel issue the LT1's have w/ a plate in place.

 

I understand removing emissions will not change A/F ratio. I was refferring to rejetting and changing timing that isn't possible on an ECM controlled EFI platform. Hope that clarifies ...

 

And, while there are seperate warning lights for low levels, the SES light will flash when pressures or temps get to extreme ranges. because the SES light is a distraction, it is hidden away out of sight.

 

Does everyone understand what I mean by "locking the ECM"? A tuner can encrypt the firmware update, even if it's just emissions delete, so that his and ONLY his decryptor can alter the firmware further. It's a tool that was developed to keep tuner B from off-loading and copying tuner A's work.

 

To take the "integrity of the racer" Glenn describes a step further, had I wanted to run a cheater ECM, it would be extremely easy. 2 bolts and 4 cables and the ECM is changed. Sealing the hood does no good because my ECM is in the passenger cabin ...

 

Or I could have a fake ECM and one hidden ...

Or I could have a dummy OBD2 port ...

 

The point is, using the arguement of "policing" an ECM flash is a moot point and a fruitless arguement.

 

And honestly, using a stock cam, heads, intake and exhaust, I doubt there is any appreciable power to be gained in altering fuel maps and timing on an unrestricted OBD2 GM car. I can't speak to the Ford platform.

 

Finally, just as I trust Adam will show up with a motor that is legal inside and out, distributor advance unchanged from OEM specs and timing where his dyno sheet says it is, so should I be trusted to turn off emissions and security in my ECM and leave the fuel maps OEM factory stock.

[Adam Ginsberg]

Yes Adam ... I certainly "get it". Your "it" is head in

the sand, afraid of change and mine is get it figured out now because it

will happen some day.

 

Head not in the sand at all.

 

There is no reason to fiddle with ECU programming - the SES light doesn't effect engine performance, and you can bypass the VAT-key with a resistor. No need to "fix" what isn't broken.

 

You and Adam see the glass half empty opening a Pandora's box full of cheaters emerging to garner all those $.50 medals. I see the glass half full and applaud the cars we'll save from ill running motors.

 

And again I say - you don't get it, Mitch. It has everything to do with the fact it's not needed, and it takes us down the slippery slope.

 

Ill running motors.....Glenn continues to extol the virtues of his junkyard engine running for what....3 seasons without a hiccup?

 

i just want to know when i've lost a knock sensor, MAP sensor, MAF, TPS, Idle Air solenoid, misfire on cylinders 1-8. most anyone of those things will surely kill my power and possibly contribute to a shortened engine life.

sure i'm the one who decided to run a more complicated platform, but there is no reason i should miss a race due to me not knowing what the issue is when it pops up.

 

An inexpensive code reader can be used to determine a problem.

 

seems like some here will gladly take a win and be happy w/ it when the best driver is broken in the pits.

 

Best driver broken down in the pits??? You must be joking - so, if you break, as happens in racing, then the other driver doesn't deserve a win? When Jeff Wirtz lost a plug wire on the installation lap, and people finished ahead of him, those folks didn't deserve their finishing positions?

 

This has no bearing on allowing/disallowing ECU's to be reprogrammed.

 

Adam - i surely remember you upset w/ the EFI cars having a factory rev limiter when the carb cars did not.

 

Upset?? You need a memory refresher - I asked for the allowance of a stand alone rev-limiter for the carbed cars to gain the same protection the EFI motors have. It was shot down for 2 years.

 

you led the way in getting aftermarket rev limiters for carb motors legal. this is no different.

 

No different? It's completely different - a stand alone rev limiter compared to altering the factory ECU programming.

 

you have the benefit of not missing a race due to a minor sensor failure, but are afforded one of the benefits of running a EFI car. should i not be afforded the same courtesy? having the ability to monitor my PCM and engine health w/ my emissions stuff removed w/out a constant SES light?

 

You can monitor engine/sensor health without reprogramming the ECU. Use a code reader to pull codes - simple as that. As admitted by others, the SES light is an annoyance, nothing more.

 

from where i stand, if you wanted a rev limeter, you should have went EFI and not to the rules board and asked for a change. werent you on that board at the time?

 

Rev-limiters were approved after I was no longer a series director.

 

Does everyone understand what I mean by "locking the ECM"? A tuner can encrypt the firmware update, even if it's just emissions delete, so that his and ONLY his decryptor can alter the firmware further. It's a tool that was developed to keep tuner B from off-loading and copying tuner A's work.

 

Yep - completely understood. And there's no reason for it.

 

And honestly, using a stock cam, heads, intake and exhaust, I doubt there is any appreciable power to be gained in altering fuel maps and timing on an unrestricted OBD2 GM car. I can't speak to the Ford platform.

 

There is much to gain with altering the factory tune.

 

Finally, just as I trust Adam will show up with a motor that is legal inside and out, distributor advance unchanged from OEM specs and timing where his dyno sheet says it is, so should I be trusted to turn off emissions and security in my ECM and leave the fuel maps OEM factory stock.

 

A timing light can verify distributor advance curve changes, as well as timing indicated on a dyno sheet. There is no need to modify the factory ECU, as all the items mentioned ( sensor failure, emissions control removal, and VATS ) all have simple methods to get around.

[mitchntx1548534714]

More Kool-Aid, Adam?

[HMark]

i just want to know when i've lost a knock sensor, MAP sensor, MAF, TPS, Idle Air solenoid, misfire on cylinders 1-8. most anyone of those things will surely kill my power and possibly contribute to a shortened engine life.

 

There is freeware on the net and cheap ALDL to serial cables all over the net for lt-1 and ls-x cars. It takes 15 seconds for me to download all set codes from my lt-1 corvette.

 

Maybe that belongs on a pre-race weekend check list instead of changing rules?

 

-Don

[jeffburch]

Good Gawd, pipe down now.

So, if the LT1 is rich as a pig why not turn the fuel pressure down?

 

jb

[Adam Ginsberg]

Maybe that belongs on a pre-race weekend check list instead of changing rules?

 

I like that flavor of kool-aid!

[mitchntx1548534714]

Good Gawd, pipe down now.

So, if the LT1 is rich as a pig why not turn the fuel pressure down?

 

jb

 

I tried that. I assume the ECM compensates.

[mitchntx1548534714]

There is freeware on the net and cheap ALDL to serial cables all over the net for lt-1 and ls-x cars. It takes 15 seconds for me to download all set codes from my lt-1 corvette.

 

Maybe that belongs on a pre-race weekend check list instead of changing rules?

 

-Don

 

Don't be another Adam ...

 

The codes set are easy enough to clear. And they are typically all codes related to emissions equipment that has been disabled.

 

The point is the ECM also monitors engine critical parameters and as a driver, while on track without access to a code reader or 15 seconds, it would be a benefit, as an owner not a racer, to know if there was an issue under the hood.

 

So, as it stands, to know those parameters, an owner has to find ways around this ridiculous rule ... like $400 worth of gauges and hours of time intalling them.

 

The end results are the same ... I just have to spend $400 more bucks. There is no performance benefit. And I'm not afraid of cheaters. I've raced against them and they are still mid-pack.

 

Those argueing against are afraid of something or just too lazy to learn, process and understand.

 

Brad's comment about a "flip switch" is probably what is driving the fear. I've heard of Ford ECM's being able to do that. GM's setup just doesn't work that way.

[ls168camaro]

Several comments I would like to make. My experience is with my LS1 car that currently uses a 50 mm restrictor. Also if anyone would like to buy LS1 restrictors please PM me for info.

 

1. GM cars do have some sort of limp mode with a SES light on. My LS1 car was down 25-30 rwhp/tq because of knock sensors. Of course I didn't know this for awhile becuase my light was always on. Now I worry about something going wrong with my knock sensors during a race which will kill the power. Of course they can be turned off quicker by a tuner with never cranking the car than it will take me to write this post.

 

2. It seems only natural to allow people to turn off the emissions related things in the computer since we are allowed to remove all emissions. It would really be nice to know that if there is an issue with my car during a race I might be warned with an SES light. Now I have bought a computer scanner and will be scanning my car for codes after every time out on track to make sure everything is okay.

 

3. I have issues that certain cars are allowed to adjust their timing yet I am not. Why doesn't every car out there have to run the factory set timing, fuel pressure, jets, etc?? I have to run a restrictor but I am not allowed to adjust anything to ensure that I have a decent a/f ratio so that I don't wash my rings and hurt my motor. If this is suppossed to be a budget class shouldn't the rules take into consideration things that would help keep my budget as low as possible?

 

4. People are talking about resistors for VATS and things of that nature. Does it say in the rules that you can install a resistor to bypass a factory feature? If it doesn't say you can then its illegal is our mantra. What is the difference in bypassing it in the computer versus modifying something outside the Black Box? For myself it is easier, cheaper, and less time to have someone program the computer than for me to learn about resistors and where or how to put one in somewhere.

 

5. Since I can't tune my computer but others can change their timing can I simply add a timing tuner to the car so that I can adjust my timing? It would be outside the computer. I don't see how it is different from someone who wants to adjust their timing and has to go out and buy a timing light to do so. Basically its the same type of addition as an aftermarket rev limiter, which if I understood correctly has been allowed.

 

My last soap box comment is to please disallow all wings. People are spending 10 times the amount on a wing as it would cost me to have a simple computer tune.

 

Bryan

[bsim]

This is all good discussion.

 

Random thoughts...

 

Rich is better than lean. Rich = safe, lean = detonation and early motor failure.

 

My car doesn't run rich with a restrictor. At full throttle, any learned ECU parameters are ignored, and the AF ratio is based on a map within the ECU. THIS is the map everyone wants to be able to to tune with. If the car is running too rich off this map, I would replace your O2 sensors.

 

If your knock sensor goes bad, and the ECU pulls timing, it's not the same as limp mode. Limp mode won't let you rev past 2500 or so.

 

Changing the ECU maps IS a performance advantage, though probably less than 10 HP at each RPM point. Negligible in my book.

 

What's your definition of too rich? Being in the 12s and making the HP limit makes me (and my motor) happy campers.

 

If you want to turn off the SES lights in the ECU, why not do it? No one can tell, right? Just switch 'em off and keep your mouth shut about not being able to. Only you will know, right?

 

Instead of complaining about what we can't do, let's hear some proposals on how to monitor it. Mitch started to with the idea of a print out. But how can that be checked? Should the regions have to collect a share from competitors for a GM Tech 2? I think we'd need the ability to output the maps, and verify them against what the competitor provides. It would have to be the same as being able to check the stated timing against an actual timing test.

 

Until it's verifiable, I don't see changes in the next couple of years, but I'm sure it will be coming. We just need to know how to do it.

 

The key though is WHY to you want to ECU tune?

More power? If you're at the limits, you don't need it.

Less rich? Change your O2 sensors.

Timing changes? Only base timing is changed, it won't affect the changes from the knock sensor.

To see an SES light on track? Advantage over carbed guys.

To not have to scroll through useless codes when scanning? Laziness.

[mitchntx1548534714]

I appreciate your input, Brad.

 

The side of my white car would turn yellow from the raw fuel being spewed from the exhaust. I'm sure Adam's "fix" would be to change the exhaust exit point and the problem goes away ...

 

The dyno A/F ratio was off the graph ...

 

As Jeff suggested, I lowered FP and there was no change measurable within the graph parameters.

 

This was all done with new plugs, wires, Opti and O2s

 

Since my new engine install, I still am seeing the same yellow residue on the left rear quarter.

 

Brad ... is your car an OBD1 or OBD2 car? I'm running the only LT1 based OBD2 car in this region. Maybe OBD2s are more susceptible as the ECM became for sophisticated and intrusive in the normal ops of the engine? I dunno ...

 

But, this is off-topic, because I'm not advocating allowing to alter fuel maps to get the A/F ratio back within tolerable bands. I am advocating letting me turn off the codes related to emissions and security that set an SES light so that when the richness kills an O2, it can let me know.

 

I really do understand the need for the data to be verifiable. I get it ... Just like timing, timing advance, jetting, etc., make it incumbant upon the driver/owner to PROVE the data if suspicion is raised.

 

There is no need to create all this hoopla over some far-fetched posibility that may never occur.

 

It has been proven in this series and across multiple regions that some are more than willing to do what it takes to win and at any price. It has also been proven that the mechanisms in place to ferret out those offenders does, in fact, work.

 

Let the rules evolve with the times ... let the sytem work.

[Glenn]

w/ the SES light always on, i have to check for problems. if we turn off emissions stuff and the SES is on, i know there is a problem w/out checking w/ a scan tool.

[doug1548534725]

In comparison to the carb motors allowing all this tuning as a basis for it being allowed in the computer-controlled engines, remember that you can only do some fairly gross modifications in carb motors. You can adjust the timing, but you can't recurve the mechanical advance. You have to use the stock vacuum advance. You can replace the jets, but that's not nearly as powerful as the precise adjustment of an EFI fuel map. Carbs also don't get the benefit of knock sensors or any on-the-fly tuning by computer based on exhaust sensors, nor any other fancy-pants trouble codes that might make diagnosis a bit easier when there's a problem. So, in my opinion, having even a stock ECU is miles ahead in terms of diagnostic and engine-protection features than a carb car, even with the SES light pegged on. Tie the code-reader to your tire pressure gauge and clipboard and take 45 seconds to check for codes when you come in after a race.

[doug1548534725]

Another question, which I guess I'm stupid for not knowing the answer to. Why, if you have to restrict to get down to power anyway, are people disabling the emissions controls? Don't want SES? Fix your emissions and run with the same power anyway.

[mitchntx1548534714]

Another question, which I guess I'm stupid for not knowing the answer to. Why, if you have to restrict to get down to power anyway, are people disabling the emissions controls? Don't want SES? Fix your emissions and run with the same power anyway.

 

Weight and heat

[mitchntx1548534714]

Tie the code-reader to your tire pressure gauge and clipboard and take 45 seconds to check for codes when you come in after a race.

 

I have Autotap software loaded on a laptop.

 

I was told I shouldn't do as you suggest because it might appear to my competitors that I was editing the PCM.

 

I was told further I shouldn't tap into the OBD port at all to ensure I was not doing anything illegal.

 

So the OBD port was taped over with "evidence" tape to ensure the security. This same group of chicken littles required I seal my restrictor plate to my car.

 

Now maybe you have a little insight as to why this is such a touchy subject with me. It should never come down to guilty until proven innocent. The "magic box", "slippery slope", "will cheat if given the oppurtunity" mentality prevails.

 

But ... it is what it is ...

 

I'll continue to purchase hundreds of dollars worth of parts to ensure the health of my motor, all the while having free data, only restricted access, to do the same thing.