koserv Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I was one of the guys asking about the rebuildable hubs that Mike Minear has been developing for the 4th gen (http://www.mjmracing.shutterfly.com/ for pictures). I managed to toss the grease out of three hubs last season and I'm going to replace both for 09 (that's 5 hubs in one season), so a rebuildable hub, even at the astronomical price MJM needs for the first run, is pretty attractive. Over and above the rules issues (it's in the hopper and being discussed), I'm wondering what kind of life you all are getting from the stock hubs and if you've found a cheap source or a vendor with a longer lasting part. I'd been getting mine from the local NAPA at $180 per, but I just ordered a pair from A1 for $188 for both. KO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 local O'rylies - they are about $120 each. i normally replace once a year to 1.5 years. i could care less about the grease. when these things get hot, they will sling a little grease out - not a big deal. i check for play in the hub. put my hands at the 12 and 6 on the wheel and check for alot of play - a very slight amount is normal. i've never run one to failure, but even when they do fail, the wheel will not come off. i've been open tracking / racing 4th gens since 1998. i've changed more than a few of these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koserv Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 I was getting enough slop that the pad push-back was "interesting". That was my clue to check for play. Perhaps I've got something else going on that's causing the hubs to fail prematurely. Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I'm 1 - 1.5 years too. If they were 1/2 the starting price, I'd start to think about them. Personally, I'd rather see us allow Delteq boxes to replace the opti first. A hub is MUCH easier and cheaper to replace. I've got over a grand in grenaded optis already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady in Nomex Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I'm 1 - 1.5 years too. If they were 1/2 the starting price, I'd start to think about them. Personally, I'd rather see us allow Delteq boxes to replace the opti first. A hub is MUCH easier and cheaper to replace. I've got over a grand in grenaded optis already. I'm with Brad on this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllZWay Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I am on my original 100K set on the car before I built a race car..... and now after 2+ years of racing. I did pop one on my street car once a few years ago though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Also, buy the ones with a warranty, at least you'll get free refills for a year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I'm 1 - 1.5 years too. If they were 1/2 the starting price, I'd start to think about them. Personally, I'd rather see us allow Delteq boxes to replace the opti first. A hub is MUCH easier and cheaper to replace. I've got over a grand in grenaded optis already. I'm with Brad on this one! I don't know what you guys are doing, but all this discussion about Optis had me really scared before I bought my first LT1. I've now put together 4 LT1 cars and not a problem with any of them. Now some aftermarket camshafts have driver pins that are too long and will eventually trash the rotor and provide some collateral damage. But that's with aftermarket Comp camshafts. Julie ... Brad ... did you forget to replace the Comp drive pins with the OEM pins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Drives are OK, but in 2 years, 1st - low speed stumble (stock GM - arcing) 2nd - High-speed miss (stock GM - arcing) 3rd - backfire, missing, died in the pits (Accel, broken rotor) 4th - died 3 laps into a race (1st tow hook test) don't know yet AND, I shift at 5k, so I'm not over-revving! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koserv Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 When I was shopping last winter for a CMC ride, the opti's and the hubs were the two big things in the negative column for the 4th gen. So far, I haven't even thought about the opti...it's been turn the key and go. No such luck with the hubs. I'm thinking there may be something else, perhaps in the set up, that's leading to the trouble. To Glenn's point, I haven't seen a failure (spindle break, bearing chowder, etc), but there's enough slop to affect braking which, in my opinion, warrants a hub change. If I could get a year out of the hubs, and A1 keeps offering them at $188 a pair, the aftermarket hubs move way down the list. I'd still like to see them deemed legal, with the hope that in a season or two, they come wayyyy down in price. So... if a pair a year is the norm, any ideas on what could lead to an early failure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted January 15, 2009 Members Share Posted January 15, 2009 Kent, is this a CMC car or an AI car? Bigger stickier tires will decrease life of the hub. Maybe you should do a little less off roading I get about a year out of my front hubs too. I've changed the opti twice in five years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 What are your alignment settings? Obviously, the more camber, the more wear. Also, curbs are bad for hubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koserv Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 Jeez, nobody was supposed to find out about my T1 adventure into the wilds at Putnam. I'm at max caster, -3.2 camber, and 0 on the toe. Mr Blaine suggested I was high on the camber and should dial in a bit of toe out. With the new tire, I think I'll start at max caster, -2 camber, and 1/16" toe out and see how that feels. Phil (of Phils Tire, one of our Midwest/east coast series/NASA vendors) suggested I run -3x, and tire temps kept telling me I needed more negative camber. I guess set-up is kind of a blank sheet with the new tire. I think Kent (the other one) posted late last year that they have an east coast track where they run ridiculous negative camber (-7??). I'll bet the hubs don't like that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustang72 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I think Kent (the other one) posted late last year that they have an east coast track where they run ridiculous negative camber (-7??). I'll bet the hubs don't like that...Several of the MA Mustangs run -5-7* normally. We have to make our narrow track, top heavy cars get around corners with you GM guys somehow. For the 4th gen hubs, if they have the same geometry and don't significantly save weight, why not allow them? If there's no performance advantage let somebody spend the extra money if they want to. People will always find a way to spend more money on their car. You might as well let them do it to increase reliability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 no 4th gen should be running 3 anything camber wise. i think you have your camber and caster numbers mixed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsim Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 ...and tire temps kept telling me I needed more negative camber.Are you saying you couldn't get the insides hot enough? Yikes! What are you shooting for temp-wise? I try to keep the inside -> outside difference less than 10 degress, with the center falling somewhere in the middle. I usually run 1/8" toe out and -1.5 to -2.0 camber on my car (except @ Cal Speedway where I go 0 on the LF). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koserv Posted January 15, 2009 Author Share Posted January 15, 2009 My temp log is out in the trailer (-40 wind chill today....I think I'll wait until it warms up to go get it), but I think the insides were running in the high 150/low 160 range and the outs in the high 140's. It all made perfect sense to me while I was cranking in more - camber at the track, but now that I'm sitting here thinking about it, the outsides probably weren't even hitting the track on the straights. Although, I have 3 sets of tires sitting in the shop with cords on the outside and tread showing in the inside. That was part of my confusion in trying to start to learn set-up. I'd get the temps equalized, then I'd run the outside of the tires off in a couple of sessions (fronts...I expect that on rears), and I’d crank in more neg to try to get the wear to even out. I'd feel stupid, but relieved, if going to less - camber and flipping tires on the rims as wear dictates "fixes" my front end issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 First, my experience with Optis mirror Mitch's and koservs (but koservs car is my old car). Between my father (he used to have an LT1 Vette) and I we have probably had 130 days at the track with the LT1's with no issues. Second, Kent, I know you said your hubs were failing more quickly than when I had the car. I always put NIB GM hubs on the car at the start of each season. Then the start of the next season, I put NIB GM hubs (never autoparts store pieces) on the car. I never had a problem nor failure. I think the difference between you and I are: 1) You are running the car harder than I am. 2) The car has no brake ducts. I left them off because the car was so porky. Since you are running the car harder, you are generating more heat in the brakes. That heat is making it to the hubs. One of the things that will acclerate hub wear is the grease getting so hot that it comes out - bye, bye lube, hello wear and even more temperature. I typically got smoke (and sometimes fire) from the hubs at my first lapping day of the season with new ones on there. I thought it was funny until I realized how much money it was costing me. 3) Your alignment is much more agressive than I had. This will also put additional load on the hub. IIRC, I ran -2.5 deg camber, +4.7 caster and a tiny bit of toe out. At -3.2 degrees, the hubs are seeing strange loads, specifically under braking (when you are also getting hot). If you are getting alignment input from Mustang guys, remember they are different pieces and respond differently to the alignment specs (and even spring rates). I only post this to tell you my experience with the same car and highlighting the differences. Now, NIB hubs from gmpartsdirect.com are $217 plus shipping (and you'll feel violated with their shipping charges) - I just checked. This means that if I were still running that car, my start-of-the-season hub-changing exercise would be +$500. Yes, one can get the used ones but I personally concluded that I would never buy aftermarket hubs and optis so this would be my cost to bear. koserv - maybe this data will be helpful. It is only data. Feel free to contact me offline if you want to talk about anything in more detail. Are the rebuildable ones more? Yeah, but by the start of the 3rd season (using my maintenance schedule), you would be ahead and continue to be ahead for as long as the car was in track service. Now to the real reason for the post - I don't see how one could argue against allowing the rebuildable hubs with a concrete argument. They are dimensionally the same (I have held one in my hand), non-performance-enhancing, exact bolt-in replacement performing the exact same task as the part being replaced. ...and as far as I'm concerned, a catastrophic, on-track hub failure is more than an inconvenience to the driver. One of the reasons I was so anal about my hub maintenance is that I have seen 2 catastrophic f-body/Vette hubs failures (admittedly at autocrosses) and the idea of having one on track terrifies me. I really hope that we allow these, assuming that we are comfortable with the durability of the pieces. This is up to the driver, I suppose. My $0.02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koserv Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yeah Keith, I think it may have been a combo of rookie learning curve with the set-up and a pretty high giggle factor between brake zone and apex (have I mentioned that I really, really like this sport....) working the car a bit. Your ponts on costs are why I even considered the MJM hub and asked for a ruling. It sounds like the R888 likes less neg camber than the RA1, so I'll keep my eyes open and see what the set-up baseline is going to be and, hopefully, I'll have learned a bit and I'll be closer to the pocket. Perhaps the new tire will actually be easier on hubs. Brake ducts are already fabbed and just waiting for the other projects to get done (rewire pics on the way), so I'm hoping that will help. I did take a flyer and order hubs from A1. At $95 a pop, I couldn't resist. And, if the MJM hubs are deemed legal, I won't be out that much and will have some trailer stock for back up.... Thanks all for the input on set-up and hub life. I would be interested in 4th gen tire temps if anyone wants to post a follow up. KO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 the MJM hubs are not totally out of the question yet. one of the last things said amoung us directors was "at the least, lets give it a year and see how they hold up." i'm not saying they will be allowed in 2010, but that we are wiling to revisit this at the end of the season. you guys are doing a good job of presnting your case, so keep it up. the major issue w/ these is cost. at $1300 for a pair vs $250 (low end), thats hard to allow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koserv Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Thanks for the update Glenn. I think a lot of us who're interested in these would like to see them "in the fleet" for a year before pulling the trigger. I my case, getting a better handle on set-up and the new tire might help me nurse a set of hubs through the season. However, if I toast a hub in the first couple of weeks, I’d sure like to see the MJM’s legal. One thing to consider...as these don't give a competitive advantage, cost should be much less of a factor in deciding on legality. I think these are in a different category than brakes and wings....I'd say it's more like safety gear. I don't think the rules prevent me from spending 5k on a custom, carbon fiber, body molded seat. But items that increase performance are either disallowed, spec'ed, or are limited by a spending cap. If it's decided that these are not a performance mod, then cost shouldn't be the deciding factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchntx1548534714 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 One thing to consider...as these don't give a competitive advantage Not so fast ... If the $250/set hubs sling all the grease out and the bearing heats up, that would increase rolling resistance. Competitive advantage. I know it might sound ludicrous, or nit-picky, but it's no more nit-picky than claiming ducted fan brake ducts can generate downforce. Someone read GRM article on the C4 Vette and made a huge jump. But, pickin' nits has become the norm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 performance advantage was talked about. think in terms of more/less pad knockback. these will reduce that over the long term for a non-floating caliper. but the flip side is this can be accomplished by swapping in new hubs every event or every day and that is totally legal. since the legal way is way more costly than the proposed way, it cancels out the perfromance advantage mentioned. also, the 4th gens are currently the only ones i know of that are CMC(-2) legal and use a non-rebuildable hub. so that performance advantage is currently had by all other platforms. i argued both sides of this at one point. i felt the best call was made by Tony to let this ride for a year and look at it again then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koserv Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 How are you (the directors) going to handle notification of rules clarifications? Will you post outcomes in "Series Anouncments" under the topic heading, or?? Hopefully these will be green flagged for 10 and the price will be a bit more realistic. Thanks again to all for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiMifan Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 also, the 4th gens are currently the only ones i know of that are CMC(-2) legal and use a non-rebuildable hub. so that performance advantage is currently had by all other platforms. The hubs on 94-newer Mustangs are non-rebuildable too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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