MHISSTC Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 From an early 5.0 FOX Mustang perspective: 7.24.1 All cars must use OEM stock exhaust manifolds with the following exceptions:1. Early GM 305 and Early Ford 5.0 cars may use shorty style headers Does the vagueness of the rule imply any aftermarket or custom built header labeled or described as a "shorty style" may be used regardless of details such as material, flange thickness, primary tube diameter, collector configuration, coatings or finishes where "shorty style" actually refers to any tubing length or configuration beginning at the header flange and terminating at a collector in an OEM location? Also, are header wraps legal, or does that fall into the "doesn't say you can, so you can't" bin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 From an early 5.0 FOX Mustang perspective: 7.24.1 All cars must use OEM stock exhaust manifolds with the following exceptions:1. Early GM 305 and Early Ford 5.0 cars may use shorty style headers Does the vagueness of the rule imply any aftermarket or custom built header labeled or described as a "shorty style" may be used regardless of details such as material, flange thickness, primary tube diameter, collector configuration, coatings or finishes where "shorty style" actually refers to any tubing length or configuration beginning at the header flange and terminating at a collector in an OEM location? Also, are header wraps legal, or does that fall into the "doesn't say you can, so you can't" bin? Your definition of "shorty" is correct. A shorty header is one that will bolt in place of the OEM part it replaces. Header wrap on the manifolds is not legal. While on the subject... I find it odd that the folks who are allowed to run non-OEM manifolds are allowed to have them coated (since 99% are coated by default), but the rest of us are not allowed to coat the OEM stuff even w/ things as simple as header wrap. I've been down this road w/ the Directors and lost (before and after I was a Director). Just wanted to point this out since it would have been asked anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 Thanks Glenn. The real issue I wanted to get clarified was the one of the legality of coatings and wraps vs. no coatings and no wraps. I threw the definition of a shorty header in there after our team discussion also questioned what would technically qualify as a "shorty" header. In my mind the issue of wraps and coatings is still unresolved and needs further clarification. I believe this rule, as it is currently written, perpetuates a very strong "perceived benefit" if some folks have been blessed to run aftermarket "coated" headers while those who choose to run OEM headers in the same cars with the same engines are not allowed to utilize either a coating or a wrap. I interpret "coatings" to mean anything adhered to the base metal of construction either internally or externally including anything ranging from oxidation, carbon, paint, chrome, ceramic, or any other material that is not actually the base construction material of the header. With that broad definition, rust on the outside and soot on the inside would qualify as a "coating". Heaven forbid if I decided to paint a cheap set of used shorties to prevent rust and prolong their life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al F. Posted February 13, 2012 Members Share Posted February 13, 2012 I wouldnt go as far as saying that those running aftermarket headers are allowed to have them coated. They are allowed to buy and install aftermarket headers which may be coated from the manufacturer. Splitting hairs maybe, but not the same thing. Header wrap is not unresolved; the rules do not state you can do it, so you cannot. That said, everyone is allowed and encouraged to turn in rules change requests near the end of the season. If you dont agree with a rule, there is a process for change, starting with convincing your regional director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Well, I'm not sure how much reading between the lines I should do here. I don't disagree with this rule. I was merely hoping to get by with additional clarification and guidance rather than being invited to submit a rules change request. Now it seems some kind of rules change request is inevitable. If I'm understanding things so far, the rule indicates the following: 1. OEM exhaust manifolds may be used 2. any shorty style headers may be used 3. any custom made shorty style headers may be used 4. "Shorty style header" is being defined as any tubular header designed to fit within the existing space between the mounting surface on the head and the point at which the OEM exhaust manifold connects to the remainder of the OEM exhaust system. 5. no header wraps 6. I can use a shorty style header with any kind of coating on it only if the manufacturer offers and delivers it with the coating already intact 7. I can not add or remove any coating of any kind to or from any shorty style header or exhaust manifold. Still needing further clarification: 1. Can I, in any way, modify an OEM exhaust manifold? Specifically, can I disable, either by capping or by cutting off and welding closed, the threaded heat tube present on the '94-'95 Mustang tubular exhaust manifolds to be able to use them without the remainder of the emissions system intact either in an SN95 or in a FOX Mustang? 2. Does the definition of a "coating" include ALL materials deposited on either the internal and external surfaces of the base construction material? 3. If I buy a ratty set of used un-coated steel shorty style headers off Craigslist, am I allowed to clean off the carbon and rust and repaint them? 4. If I buy a ratty set of used ceramic coated shorty style headers off Craigslist, am I allowed to media blast them and have them re-coated with ceramic? 5. If I have a fabricator build me a custom set of shorty style headers and he ceramic coats all of his headers as a matter of fact in order to provide a lifetime workmanship guarantee, are those headers legal? 6. Would I be allowed/disallowed a coating if I fabricated my own set of shorty style headers? 7. If I went out tomorrow and bought from a manufacturer a set of shorty style headers that also happened to have a ceramic coating on them, and this rule is changed next year to explicitly disallow any ceramic coatings on shorty style headers, would I be "grandfathered in" because the headers were on the car before the rule was changed, or would I be required to replace my headers with a non-coated version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Your reading way too deep into this. Use OEM stuff or aftermarket where allowed. Aftermarket sells them coated. Coated aftermarket is legal. Coated to me is defined as a heat reflective coating. I see nothing about not removing anything (carbon, oil, rust). I painted my OEM manifolds w/ 1800 degree exhaust paint to keep them in good shape and from looking all rusty. Did I ever say this rule is dumb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 And Al....... splitting hairs my ass. If they are allowed to be run w/ a coating on them, who cares at what point they were coated? Re-coated? The end result is the same.... some platforms get to run coated exhaust manifolds/headers and others don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I don't see the point of having header wrap being illegal. Every race car I have had up until now has had header wrap on it just to keep the heat off me and headed towards the rear of the car. But then again all the classes prior to this, you could see the glowing red headers through the wheel well at night. Someone has to do it for it to be considered illegal and for people to complain about it right? But... it does cost a little extra and makes your car look more like a real race car and some people wont know how to wrap a header so we probably should just make it illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebandit48 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 By the way.. the way I read the rule was a shorty header... exhaust ports to stock location of oem exhaust location. Which may be kind of hard because it is an "open" exhaust rule from that point back. But that's why I just bought a set of bbs headers. I would however like to wrap my exhaust header back. (Yes the actual exhaust tube not Headers) At least the part of the exhaust that's closer to me. I don't care if you coat your exhaust either. Its not my check book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 I know I'm over-thinking this. Without question, the easiest solution is is to use OEM. I'm also reasonably sure no one would ever think twice about anyone cleaning and repainting any exhaust manifold or header with high-temp paint. What folks are going to be concerned about is a performance advantage, or at least the perception of a performance advantage. Am I allowed under the current rule to modify an OEM 5.0 SN95 header by cutting off the little vestigial exhaust tube and welding a patch over it? If not, how successful have folks been in capping it off? I don't want to do either one only to have someone come back later deeming the headers illegal because the rule doesn't explicitly say that I can modify the OEM exhaust manifold. So to avoid the potential issue with the modified OEM header, a set of coated equal length shorty headers sounds nice. A small performance improvement while keeping heat out of the engine bay and making them last longer would be a good thing. But, I also don't want the day to come when the rule changes specifically allowing only non-coated headers and my headers are deemed illegal. If that happens, would they be grandfathered in because I was already using them before the rule changed, or would I have to replace them with non-coated headers? bluebandit, I can actually justify keeping header wraps illegal. If allowed, I'm sure not all of it would be applied with the same technical skill. Wraps can collect and trap moisture and oil and lead to large temperature differentials in the wrapped vs. non-wrapped areas. Moisture in the wrap can lead to corrosion and a shorter lifespan. Oil can lead to fires that are difficult to extinguish. Large temperature differentials and especially in the rates of cooling can cause fatigue points that may lead to cracking. In a very short time of Internet searching, I was able to find many individuals with pictures of those specific problems. Basically, header wraps can be beneficial, but there are potential drawbacks when using this "old-school" solution. The modern alternative, with none of the drawbacks listed above, would be one of the many extreme temperature coatings that are currently available, and which are apparently legal if you buy the headers with it already on them. We were considering different kinds of heat shields, but wrapping the exhaust tubes from just beyond the header to a point just beyond the driver is an excellent idea! We are getting a wicked amount of heat transferring from the exhaust up through the floor. Besides the melted wiring harness and speedometer cable under the car, it gets hot enough to melt the bottom corner of the heel of the soles on our shoes. As exhaust system are "open" beyond the header/manifold, I don't see that as being an issue. WooHoo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Not much risk of the rule being changed to disallow. If so, you will be grandfathered. The likely change will be the other way - allowing coatings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Doesn't the Dyno rule kind of trump all this? Sidney ps. Dirty/poor maintained cars are still going to catch on fire, drop oil on the track, and generally not finish well regardless if they have their headers wrapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlingle Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Doesn't the Dyno rule kind of trump all this? Sidney ps. Dirty/poor maintained cars are still going to catch on fire, drop oil on the track, and generally not finish well regardless if they have their headers wrapped. Couldnt agree more Sidney. If you arent over the power numbers where is the advantage other than your car running cooler. I had been thinking of doing this as everyone in the Texas region knows my car has been running crazy hot. I never even thought about the wraps being illegal since aftermarket coated headers were allowed. Guess I'll mark that off the list of things to try and fix this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Performance exhaust coatings came about for more reasons than looks and reduced underhood temps. Keeping the heat in the tube increases the amount of energy inside the tube (air moves at a higher velocity). The result, more power. So the rule was originally (prior to any non-OEM manifolds being allowed) put in place to prevent money from being spent in this area. This recuces overall costs to build a car..... Remember, 10-15 years ago, exhaust coatings were high dollar. Not so much now. Now here we are in a "more evolved" class and by default some cars are allowed to have the coatings no matter the reason. I proposed once or twice over the last few years to just go ahead and allow coatings (external of the motor only). Got shot down. Not sure why it is not a slam dunk..... Guess I'm missing something. And don't assume peak numbers is all that matters. This would affect area under the curve as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 This stinks as I just put on wrap on my exhaust manifolds as I have seen it on certain cars. Is this like the radiator box rule that nobody realized it wasn't specifically allowed but everyone was doing it? I'll be submitting this during the silly season. Glenn-I agree this is dumb. Tough to define or tell the difference between coating and paint. Meaning one could easily say your high temp paint is a coating and is illegal under the current rules. Are we allowed to use any wrap anywhere on the exhuast to protect from heat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllZWay Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Are we allowed to use any wrap anywhere on the exhuast to protect from heat? Bryan...beyond the manifolds is fine. That is how mine is wrapped....when it stays wrapped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Are we allowed to use any wrap anywhere on the exhuast to protect from heat? Bryan...beyond the manifolds is fine. That is how mine is wrapped....when it stays wrapped. Thanks-I see a coated, wrapped, titanium exhaust would fall under any suitable exhaust after the manifolds and be legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Bryan, You mentioned some of the exact concerns my teammate and I discussed which led to me asking the original question. Having the exhaust system free beyond the headers as long as it exits behind the driver and directs the exhaust away from the car is a seemingly simple enough rule if you like thinking "inside the box". I've got some ideas that would probably make the heads of my regional CMC director Chris, Glenn, and Al explode right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Bryan, You mentioned some of the exact concerns my teammate and I discussed which led to me asking the original question. Having the exhaust system free beyond the headers as long as it exits behind the driver and directs the exhaust away from the car is a seemingly simple enough rule if you like thinking "inside the box". I've got some ideas that would probably make the heads of my regional CMC director Chris, Glenn, and Al explode right now. Trust me, there are a ton of ideas w/ just this one rule that can be implimented here. Nothing you say would shock me. Bryan - Sorry man, no manfolds w/ header wrap. Tell me who you saw w/ it and I'll be sure to resolve it. Folks - I can't tell enough times...... If you dislike a rule, talk w/ your Regional Director and PLEASE submit a rule change request in the off season. I may get a petition going in hopes of showing the Regional Directors that perhaps their vote does not represent the poeple they represent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 I may get a petition going in hopes of showing the Regional Directors that perhaps their vote does not represent the poeple they represent. OK. Let's take this totally off topic. I'm reluctant to go that direction. To do that would imply a current level of mistrust in the hierarcy of the series that I don't think actually exists. I may not agree with everything, but as a whole, I'm pretty damn satisfied. It's my hope that all the Regional Directors are polling folks at events, through emails, on forums, over the phone, etc. to get a broader view of the opinions of the folks they represent when it comes time to make decisions than what might currently be displayed by the vocal minority of specific regions or the individual members within any specific region on this forum. Can we work on other items instead? 1. I'd like to see more Regional Directors actively participate in discussions on this forum. 2. I'd like to see more members of more regions actively participate on this forum. 3. I'd like to see pictures of every CMC car across the nation along with a picture and a short 5 line bio of every individual driving them. I want this information on the front page of this forum and I want that information updated annually. You could even make little "hero cards" using that information to pass out at events. How cool would it be for some young Texas kid sitting at home in front of his or her computer watching the NASA National Championships live online turn to their friend after Glen Landrum three-peats a National Championship and say, "That was awesome! You wanna check out my Glenn Landrum Rookie CMC card?" If you make the submission of this information a requirement to participate in the series, you'll get it submitted. 4. I'd like more information about the decision making process within this series and a greater transparency when decisions are made. For example, does a vote from each region carry the same weight, or is it adjusted according to the number of active racers they represent? When a vote is taken and a decision is made, how did each Regional Director vote? 4 items off the top of my head should be enough to totally derail this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I may get a petition going in hopes of showing the Regional Directors that perhaps their vote does not represent the poeple they represent. OK. Let's take this totally off topic. I'm reluctant to go that direction. To do that would imply a current level of mistrust in the hierarcy of the series that I don't think actually exists. I may not agree with everything, but as a whole, I'm pretty damn satisfied. It's my hope that all the Regional Directors are polling folks at events, through emails, on forums, over the phone, etc. to get a broader view of the opinions of the folks they represent when it comes time to make decisions than what might currently be displayed by the vocal minority of specific regions or the individual members within any specific region on this forum. Can we work on other items instead? 1. I'd like to see more Regional Directors actively participate in discussions on this forum. 2. I'd like to see more members of more regions actively participate on this forum. 3. I'd like to see pictures of every CMC car across the nation along with a picture and a short 5 line bio of every individual driving them. I want this information on the front page of this forum and I want that information updated annually. You could even make little "hero cards" using that information to pass out at events. How cool would it be for some young Texas kid sitting at home in front of his or her computer watching the NASA National Championships live online turn to their friend after Glen Landrum three-peats a National Championship and say, "That was awesome! You wanna check out my Glenn Landrum Rookie CMC card?" If you make the submission of this information a requirement to participate in the series, you'll get it submitted. 4. I'd like more information about the decision making process within this series and a greater transparency when decisions are made. For example, does a vote from each region carry the same weight, or is it adjusted according to the number of active racers they represent? When a vote is taken and a decision is made, how did each Regional Director vote? 4 items off the top of my head should be enough to totally derail this thread. #1 - Thats funny. I get talked down by those who don't post much about how much I post. Theyhave been asked to be more active by Al F. #2 - Funny again.... There are some Regional Directors who do/did ask/require thier regional racers to not participate on the forums. Long story. Askme over a beer some time...... #3 - W/ todays technology, a link to a You Tube vid would do this. I would love to see what you want, but I don't think the series is there w/ regards to being that high profile. #4 - Each Director's vote carries the same weight. Where do you draw the line at "active racers"? Raced this year, w/in the last year, two years, "I'm building a car and will race mid year... count me please"..... I don't do much polling (and have been in trouble for doing it here more than once). I just listen to what my guys tell me at the event. Who is bitching about what? who has issue w/ something. I ensue the history of the rule is understood and where things could lead if the rule was changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ls168camaro Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Bryan - Sorry man, no manfolds w/ header wrap. Tell me who you saw w/ it and I'll be sure to resolve it. Folks - I can't tell enough times...... If you dislike a rule, talk w/ your Regional Director and PLEASE submit a rule change request in the off season. I may get a petition going in hopes of showing the Regional Directors that perhaps their vote does not represent the poeple they represent. No problemo Glenn, but I won't be naming any names. If an issue I'll pull the restrictor/weight and run AI or submit that your's are illegal (see below). Funny that I can wrap the entire exhaust but not the manifolds. Glenn-if following the rules to the letter than your painted manifolds are just as illegal as my wrapped and painted manifolds. It doesn't say you can paint the manifolds and I don't see a difference in painting or coating. Are these $7 dollar spray cans of paint legal for manifolds even though they all say "Coating" in the description? http://www.jegs.com/i/DEI/186/010302/10002/-1 http://www.jegs.com/i/Thermo-Tec/893/12002/10002/-1http://www.jegs.com/i/Eastwood/352/34105Z/10002/-1 I'm not picking on you Glenn, I'm glad you are active in providing direction. I'm just merely pointing out a possible area of clarification. I look at this the same way as looking in the past at all the illegal cars (including national champions) that were boxing in their radiators before it was made legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHISSTC Posted February 15, 2012 Author Share Posted February 15, 2012 Bryan, You got your quote thing messed up there crediting me for Glenn's statements. As a point of reference, the Thermo Tec 12002K - Thermo-Tec Exhaust Insulating Header Wrap Kits at JEGS are $112. The price difference between getting a set of ceramic coated headers versus getting the same header in either a chrome, stainless, or painted version seems to differ between $100-$200 depending upon manufacturer and if that header is an equal or unequal length shorty. A difference of $130 seems to be the point at which most are clustered. That's almost a negligable cost difference between a header wrap and a coated header. I'd choose to go with the coated header rather than a header wrap (if it was legal) for similar benefits without the drawbacks of the wrap. I'll probably still try the wrap past the header on the exhaust pipe to try and get rid of some of the heat coming through the floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Bryan - Sorry man, no manfolds w/ header wrap. Tell me who you saw w/ it and I'll be sure to resolve it. Folks - I can't tell enough times...... If you dislike a rule, talk w/ your Regional Director and PLEASE submit a rule change request in the off season. I may get a petition going in hopes of showing the Regional Directors that perhaps their vote does not represent the poeple they represent. No problemo Glenn, but I won't be naming any names. If an issue I'll pull the restrictor/weight and run AI or submit that your's are illegal (see below). Funny that I can wrap the entire exhaust but not the manifolds. Glenn-if following the rules to the letter than your painted manifolds are just as illegal as my wrapped and painted manifolds. It doesn't say you can paint the manifolds and I don't see a difference in painting or coating. Are these $7 dollar spray cans of paint legal for manifolds even though they all say "Coating" in the description? http://www.jegs.com/i/DEI/186/010302/10002/-1 http://www.jegs.com/i/Thermo-Tec/893/12002/10002/-1http://www.jegs.com/i/Eastwood/352/34105Z/10002/-1 I'm not picking on you Glenn, I'm glad you are active in providing direction. I'm just merely pointing out a possible area of clarification. I look at this the same way as looking in the past at all the illegal cars (including national champions) that were boxing in their radiators before it was made legal. I'm OK w/ anyone filing a protest. I used $7 spray "paint" that has a high temp resistance. I didn't use a thermal coating. The difference? Take surface temps on mine w/ paint vs mine if they has a thermal coating and you will see. If we are going to have issues w/ painting manifolds, we are also going to have issue w/ those who painted the engine block as well. The intent of the rule was to prevent folks feeling the need to spend $200-$500 for thermal barriers on exhaust parts and not to stop folks from preventing rust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I used this to wrap my exhaust behind the manifolds: http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/1629/COOL-TAPE_EXHAUST_WRAP Kept getting torn and then corner workers called me in for dragging something. I stopped putting it on. Had to be re-wrapped every season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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