Anyone run TTG?

[subachad]

specifically in SOCAL there are no points for TTG cars. I know they are slow, but I'm stuck with my Aveo until I recooperate from my wedding in October and I would really like to run time trials but there doesn't seem to be anyone in TTG. I'm already running in HPDE3 and would really like to get into Time Trials.

 

Chad

[Shawn M.]

specifically in SOCAL there are no points for TTG cars. I know they are slow, but I'm stuck with my Aveo until I recooperate from my wedding in October and I would really like to run time trials but there doesn't seem to be anyone in TTG. I'm already running in HPDE3 and would really like to get into Time Trials.

 

Chad

 

I dont recall ever seeing any. Doesnt mean you shouldnt come out and play. Track time IS track time and dont tell me you will keep the car a TTG car? Im confident you will do a couple mods to make the car more fun on the track and come back in its respective class and have even MORE fun, right?

 

So, see you there!

[subachad]

I bought the car as reliable transportation since I had my overly modified (also read something would break when I drove it) Impreza. Well, I sold the Impreza to fund the wedding and that left me with my slow reliable daily driver which is still under warranty. I am taking it to Willow Springs this weekend, I just hope I can keep up with traffic ok. I doubt i'll have any issue in the turns, it's that whole straightaway thing.

 

As for Mods, well I couldn't resist but the total mod budget remains under $500. With that, I have removed the resonators, installed a WRX muffler, lowered it, polyurethane swaybar bushings for the front swaybar, some chassis braces, some brake ducts and 195/60/14 falcon Azenis 615's. All those mods come to about 12 points and still leave me in TTG. To bump it up, I can boost it and most likely have a VERY competitive car, but why spend that much money on a car that doesn't even meet all my needs when I plan on getting a RWD car again in by next summer.

 

So that said, any (racer) instructors want to ride in a bright green hatch this weekend and give me some pointers on what I need to Improve on?

 

This will be the 5th car I have driven at Willow Springs in the last 2 years. In order, Lanos, Mazdaspeed Protege, 93 Impreza (blew an exhaust gasket before the turbo and couldn't boost so only had about 120hp), and the last time a WRX Wagon.

 

Chad

[John Graber]

We have one TTG car, Joe Hayes in his Neon, that has run every Midwest and OH/IN event this year. He also works safety at the events.

 

John

[zuperdave]

We have a TTG car in NorCal, an early 90s Honda Civic. He's going to win his class going away!

[Greg G.]

We are not running the TTG class in SoCal this season or next season. Our lowest class is TTF. In fact, I would like to see the lowest competition class nationwide become TTF (but leave the TTH and TTG classes in place for purposes of base classing only). TTG cars are just too slow in comparison to TTR cars, increasing the risk because of the huge closing speed differences.

[subachad]

We are not running the TTG class in SoCal this season or next season. Our lowest class is TTF. In fact, I would like to see the lowest competition class nationwide become TTF (but leave the TTH and TTG classes in place for purposes of base classing only). TTG cars are just too slow in comparison to TTR cars, increasing the risk because of the huge closing speed differences.

 

I was thinking the same thing about the difference in Speed, I mean take a base civic or honda fit and even though it might be ok through the corners, the porsches, Evos, STI's, that dude in the Neon would be going MUCH faster on the straights. Why not allow the slower time trial cars to run in HPDE3 where they won't get run over? That would allow more people to run TT and not have to own a car which is basically race prepped as most of the cars in SOCAL anyway running HPDE4 seem to be mostly full race cars.

 

I think it would be need to see someone running a Honda Fit in TT or maybe some guys prepping for the base honda challenge class could run TT for a while before joining the Honda Challenge.

 

Chad

[kbrew8991]

so you're going to let the megabucks TTU and TTR guys push us lowly TTF and below people out of Time Trials?

[firehawkclone]

Why not allow the slower time trial cars to run in HPDE3 where they won't get run over? That would allow more people to run TT and not have to own a car which is basically race prepped as most of the cars in SOCAL anyway running HPDE4 seem to be mostly full race cars.

 

 

Chad

 

Chad I would say only 25% of the cars in 4/TT are "race prep" Others may have the inside stripped, R compounds, etc... but are far from "race prepped". Most are just street car's on R compounds. JMHO

 

Also most of the cars/drivers in 3 are not much slower than 4/tt. Again JMHO

 

And I myself would rather have my more experience driver's yet slower car's in TT becuase we grid up according to are time's, so there are few problems with slower cars until later in the session.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

Also most of the cars/drivers in 3 are not much slower than 4/tt. Again JMHO

 

thats been true from what I've seen as well, outside of the guys that just got moved into HPDE3 of course...

[Shawn M.]

so you're going to let the megabucks TTU and TTR guys push us lowly TTF and below people out of Time Trials?

 

 

LOL!!!

Let me put this thought in your mind.

The vast majority of cars that are in the megabuck TTU and TTR category dont dick around with TT. Yeah, they do that Racing thing. The only time we see these guys is when there is either an Enduro they are getting ready for OR they are new to the track! Even still, small percentage of those mega car types and they aint pushin us slow folk nowheres.

 

Like I tell my wife, dont you worry your pretty little head!

 

And to you I say, just show up and lets have some fun!

[racerjon1]

I entered in TTG (along with TTU in the AMS Evo) today for Nationals in my Neon ACR.

 

My goal is fastest and slowest national-championship winning times.. (actually it is in the hopes to get two TT groups and if so get some more track time at Mid-Ohio the week of nationals)

 

Jon K

[kbrew8991]

my college roomate Rob entered a TTH 1990 Civic this past weekend at Road Atlanta... it was quite humorus until he started getting his f'n doors blown off by GT3 Cup cars and the rest of the TTR/TTU guys

[racerjon1]

In the AMS car the TTG and such cars are actually the easier ones to pass cause it happens so quick, but the closing speeds can be scary, at Mid-O this wekend I was seeing closing speeds of 65mph down the back straight on the slowest car, and 55mph or so on the Miatas. The Miatas were running 100-105 or so and I think yesterday morning I clocked a high speed of 156, saturday it was 153-154.

 

When we see the program grow, and see more serious TTG cars running, it shouldn't be as bad as it is. The SCCA Showroom stock C record (TTF/TTG cars) is 1:47.8 so there is no reason that those classes can't be fast enough to minimize the differences.

 

I think the real answer is to hope that it grows enough to have two TT groups at events, and then it won't be an issue.

 

Jon K

[kbrew8991]

I personally was having trouble balancing between not holding anyone up and not screwing up my good laps by letting people pass

 

I got chopped pretty bad between 11 and 12 at Road Atlanta (scary place to pass anyway) while trying to not screw up that lap.... ah well

 

here's to the hope of two TT groups!!

[racerjon1]

Honestly the best thing you can do is not worry about it so much, TTU/TTR cars, we are going to get by you.

 

What i see most often is we are in a slower cars mirrors and in trying to let us by/worrying about holding us up, the driver breaks concentration and slows down, disrupting what the faster car "expects" very often I am setting up for a corner-exit pass, and the slower car will slow down even more, making sure we end up in the corner longer together.

 

You are ahead, it is your track, stay online and stay focused on going fast. If the pass will be in the braking zone, lifting a little early or braking slightly earlier will help "shoot" the faster car by with minimal time loss to each person.

 

I will reiterate the stay online part.. If you are online we expect you to be there, when you change lanes, it makes us nervous, and if there is another car that didn't change lanes, all the sudden I have 3000 lb slalom cones to work through...

 

Jon K

[Greg G.]

I entered in TTG (along with TTU in the AMS Evo) today for Nationals in my Neon ACR.

 

My goal is fastest and slowest national-championship winning times.. (actually it is in the hopes to get two TT groups and if so get some more track time at Mid-Ohio the week of nationals)

 

Jon K

Jon, I don't think there will be a TTG class at the Championships. There have been no TTG registrations prior to you, and the (hopeful) prizes that I'm trying to arrange with potential sponsors are based on having only 8 classes. You will probably have to bump it to TTF. Also, I really don't think we need stock Neons on street tires out there. If your ACR has R-compounds, then it would be in TTF anyway. Even if somehow there were two TT groups, the TTC cars doing low/mid 1:40's won't appreciate the TTG cars doing over 2:00 (over 2:12 at past Mid-Ohio events) any more than the mid-high 1:30's TTR/TTU cars would. Now, if there is only one group, then having 2:10+ cars out with sub 1:30 cars trying to get clean laps would be pretty ridiculous.

 

Also, you are spot-on regarding passing, and slower cars being predictable. Drivers will be hearing this from me in our meetings.

[racerjon1]

Jon, I don't think there will be a TTG class at the Championships. There have been no TTG registrations prior to you, and the (hopeful) prizes that I'm trying to arrange with potential sponsors are based on having only 8 classes. You will probably have to bump it to TTF.

 

Yep, I just rechecked, Someone told me that the Neon was +7 but I see that the ACR is +15 so with the tires on it makes me TTF. There were a couple of people at Mid-Ohio that were saying “if there are entries, we will go” by entering the Neon I get more track time, and help to make two groups.

 

Also, I really don't think we need stock Neons on street tires out there. Even if somehow there were two TT groups, the TTC cars doing low/mid 1:40's won't appreciate the TTG cars doing over 2:00 (over 2:12 at past Mid-Ohio events) any more than the mid-high 1:30's TTR/TTU cars would.

 

This is much more an issue of driver than car. Based on what I run at other tracks, I still think I would be 1:56 – 1:57 or so in my Neon on street tires. As the program grows, attracts more experienced drivers, and higher levels of competition, it should get better unless we just throw our hands up and say “TT will always have weaker drivers and the good drivers will go to roadracing” Which I don’t think will be the case with the popularity of Time Trial/Time Attack/Track Attack events.

 

There was a car out there this weekend whose driver said, “I have street tires, so I will be slow in the corners,” but he was quite quick in a straight line. This was much more of an issue than a 2:00 Neon. There were a few cars like this (slow in corners quick on straights) some even with R compounds. As the series grows, which I hope and am sure you hope will also, I think it will be less and less of an issue, unless you put a % of time limit to qualify for Nationals.

 

Now, if there is only one group, then having 2:10+ cars out with sub 1:30 cars trying to get clean laps would be pretty ridiculous.

 

Which is why not having two groups is ridiculous, 2:10 cars get caught faster yea, but I don’t really notice much difference in closing speeds on some of the 2:00-2:05 cars. On a cool-down lap I motor paced a group of Miatas down the back straight, they hit a high of 101mph, in a spot I am doing 156, If we see a “GT1 style” TTR car, it should hit 165 or so.

 

Also, you are spot-on regarding passing, and slower cars being predictable. Drivers will be hearing this from me in our meetings.

 

Good to hear this, it really was pretty good at Mid Ohio this past weekend, other than a couple of times where people moved over for me, causing the “slalom” effect. Another point where It was scary was between turn one and the chicane, where crossing the track is part of the line, some cars stayed online, and some stayed to the right, but we can decide what to do there with everyone around.

 

Jon K

[Greg G.]

Jon, thanks for signing up with the second car. I'll switch your class to TTF before the next posting of entries.

 

I'm still working on the issue of the size of our group. But, you are correct that the more cars that I/we have, the better chance there is of resolution of this issue that is favorable to TT drivers. I hope that there aren't drivers that are getting "scared away" from registering because they see the size of the group, or drivers waiting for a split of the group before registering. I think it is unlikely that any announcements would be made of a second TT group prior to the Sept 1st registration deadline. So, we need the opposite approach. If there are any drivers "on the fence", that would like to participate in TT at the Championships if there were smaller run groups, then sign up NOW! There is power in numbers. (Does anybody think that there could possibly be a safe TT competition at Mid-Ohio with 75-80 cars in one group? Remember, safety is my number one priority for TT.) TT already has the largest group in the entire event, and NASA recognizes this. Then if for some reason we don't get a favorable resolution, those drivers that don't want to compete in a large group can always cancel and get a full refund.

[racerjon1]

Jon, thanks for signing up with the second car. I'll switch your class to TTF before the next posting of entries.

Greg, if it wouldn’t be too much trouble, can we hold off? If we get 3+ entries in TTG then I will just have the Falken street tires on it, if we don’t then I will bump up to TTF at registration/tech and slap the R comps on it. TTF with the car as is leaves me 20 points short of “competitive” so though the car is for more track time, I would still like to be as competitive as possible.

 

Does anybody think that there could possibly be a safe TT competition at Mid-Ohio with 75-80 cars in one group? Remember, safety is my number one priority for TT.

Not only would it not be safe in any way shape or form, but it would be impossible. This is where value comes into play, which leads to another aspect of safety.

 

This weekend at Mid Ohio with 45 cars on track Danny Popp and I were getting MAYBE 3 laps before we caught people, and the session was essentially over in terms of lap times. If we had 75-80 cars in a group, it would be the “lapping national championships” for TTR, TTU, and TTA...etc

 

For value, when I think of going to Nationals and spending $2,000.oo to come for four days and getting 24 clean laps, it is kind of disheartening. Yes, I know that my class is up for higher costs, but others will be in similar situations of clean laps, so breaking the group up helps the value competitors get.

 

On to the safety aspect of two groups: I have told people that I will not dive-bomb them when passing. The way I figure, once I have to do that, the lap is blown, and I have risked two cars for little gain.

 

One of the other faster drivers this weekend said “Yea but you might HAVE to get by that car in front to get a clean lap the next time.” While I still would rather not risk racing style out-braking maneuvers in a TT group, when you put a national championship on the line, it might become “worth the risk” so to speak. I don’t, but certainly guys that already see it as worth the risk will continue to take chances. (I am not threatening, I promise, I still don’t see the need for the risk, but others will. In fact I got dive-bombed being patient with a slower car Saturday.)

 

Jon K

[subachad]

Wow, this topic is a little hotter than I had anticipated... Good thread

[zuperdave]

I've been trying to not get involved in this discussion, instead just getting on with driving, but I feel the need to add my $.02.

 

I drive a "momentum car." I'm lot slower and about half a ton lighter than many of the other TT cars out there, but I don't mind. Getting my doors blown off on the straights doesn't bother me anymore. What's important for me is being on the optimum line as much as possible, improving my cornering skills, and getting on the gas ASAP after apexing. I don't think the question here is simply a matter of gross "closing speed." It's a matter of "So you can pass me here. Now what?"

 

What gets me is when some race car or TT Uber-car (TTU, -R, or -A) passes me late on the inside in the braking zone. OK, to be fair, it could really be any car out there. Because I'm trying to maintain my momentum, I'm (trying to be ) on the optimum line, so the fast burner is immediately off the best line with no chance to get back on it before turning-in. So now because he taken some sucky line in order to get to the corner first, he has to jam on the brakes in order to just SURVIVE the corner.

 

Meanwhile, because I'm lighter, entering the corner a little slower (but sometimes still flatout), and on the better line, I usually don't have to brake as early or as hard in order to make a corner. What DOES happen to me in this situation is that I often have to lift or -- egad -- BRAKE in order to not slam into his rear end .

 

Faster car wins corner entry, both cars lose time -- me probably for the rest of the lap.

 

Thanks

 

Yes, as long as I can reasonbly remain on the line, I will often lift just so on the straight and slip in behind a faster car. Then I still wind up in all three of his mirrors... I usually will not "close the door" on a guy coming up.

 

I don't make this stuff up. Happens to me probably a couple times a weekend: give me a track and I can predict which corner(s) will be most problematic. I've been in this situation dozens of times with all sorts of cars, including an NSX who passed me at the last minute only to tap his brakes in the corner, which made me lift: the driver told me later he wouldn't have been able to keep it on the track if he hadn't hit his brakes. Good thing we're friends.

 

A 92 hp Civic lifting for an NSX. Gotta love it.

 

Obviously, this scenario still bugs me, but I don't bring it up in downloads anymore because it seems like it's all part of the experience and I can handle the car-control aspects of the situation. But I don't think learning how to go 2-wide through a corner is one of the goals of the TT program. I'm sensitive to it this week because someone in a race car jumped me this way at Thunder Hill this past weekend and goofed up my effort to reel in part of a very well organized convoy of TTF cars. I don't think it would have made any difference in the final results, but thanks for letting me vent.

[John Graber]

Clearly the goal at the Championships would be to have two run groups.

 

This is also my goal for the OH/IN Region for next year. However, until participation increases enough to afford this we will have to deal with a large disparity between the fastest and slowest cars on rack. The best thing we can all do is promote the TT program. Bring your friends.

 

Also, the slower cars seem to be taking the brunt of this discussion, yet it is just as easy to fix the situation by eliminating fast cars as it is to eliminating slow cars.

 

As long as we work together with a common goal we should be able to provide adequate open track time for all. The race classes often have the same problem as we do, yet they manage to post a competitive time in qualifying so we should be able to as well.

 

John

[kbrew8991]

I had a similar issue to zuperdave at Road Atlanta this weekend

 

Id get my doors blown off going into 3 just to catch them and get held up all the way through 4 and the esses and have them kill my exit at turn 5. I can flat-foot that section until I brake for 5, the cars that were passing me at/before 3 couldn't get far enough ahead to keep from holding me up

 

just a tad bit aggrivating

[GAC]

I had a similar issue to zuperdave at Road Atlanta this weekend

 

Id get my doors blown off going into 3 just to catch them and get held up all the way through 4 and the esses and have them kill my exit at turn 5. I can flat-foot that section until I brake for 5, the cars that were passing me at/before 3 couldn't get far enough ahead to keep from holding me up

 

just a tad bit aggrivating

 

If you guys aren't pregridding by previous session time EVERY time out, that could be the cause of aggravation. In SoCal Greg has this working very well, and this problem all but goes away until the very end of a session.