Anyone run TTG?

[kbrew8991]

being packed in with HPDE4 doesnt help matters as well

 

I'll keep bugging our grid guys about it, but they just throw thier hands in the air and say "We're too busy with the race groups"

 

no respect I tell ya

[GAC]

being packed in with HPDE4 doesnt help matters as well

 

I'll keep bugging our grid guys about it, but they just throw thier hands in the air and say "We're too busy with the race groups"

 

no respect I tell ya

 

HPDE4 cars w/o transponders go to the back of the line, as it should be.

[kbrew8991]

but alot of them are much faster than the TTE/F/G cars... so we get caught by the end of the pace lap and are in traffic all session long

 

I started purposefully waiting until they sent all the cars before I showed up to grid, got a better shot at clean track if I start behind EVERYONE by a little bit

[GAC]

but alot of them are much faster than the TTE/F/G cars... so we get caught by the end of the pace lap and are in traffic all session long

 

I started purposefully waiting until they sent all the cars before I showed up to grid, got a better shot at clean track if I start behind EVERYONE by a little bit

 

Honestly, here there are so few 4 cars that it doesn't matter all that much. And the cars with transponders get grouped in their correct spot anyhow, even if they're HPDE.

[Neon2dmaX]

Hmm... as of this date there are 57 cars signed up for TT.. just might get a little crowded out there. FWIW, a suggestion: Even if you cannot have two separate TT run groups (e.g. faster & slower) you may be able to accomplish the same thing by splitting the allotted time on the track.

 

For example, instead of having to squeeze another group into the schedule, shoot for another 4 - 10 minutes per TT run (if possible). Take the allotted time (whether it be 20, 24, or 30 minutes) and split the time between faster and slower cars. By using a shoot out starting grid format for each of the two groups, everyone should get 6-8 good clean laps to score their respective time.

 

While it may seem a bit harsh to ask anyone to sacrifice their track time, the fact remains that the National Championships for TT competitors are more about quality track time (e.g. good clean laps) than the quantity of track time. Looking at the current entry list, there are 27 "faster" cars registered for TTU, TTR, and TTA, and 30 "slower" cars registered for TTB through TTF. (I know... some of those TTB cars may actually be faster that a particular TTA car.) In the end, there would be far fewer cars on the track at any given time, and less of a gap measured between the fastest and the slowest car in either of the two groups. Would require a great deal of cooperation on the part of the competitors, but then again, most of the competitors in the TT group are seasoned drivers who should be expected to cooperate.

[Greg G.]

We have two run groups for the Championships!

[Neon2dmaX]

We have two run groups for the Championships!

 

XLNT! Please disregard my prior post.

[John Graber]

I take back everything bad I said or thought about Greg! Awesome!

[zuperdave]

Can you say "Yeeeeeeeeeeeeee-ha!?"

[racerjon1]

Awesome.

 

Thanks for breaking it up into two groups, it will be much better for everyone.

 

Jon K

[Falcon]

We have two run groups for the Championships!

 

[edit]I see the answer in the sticky thread.

[FastSaleen]

Being as there are now 2 run groups, I see no reason for the slowest cars (TTG-TTH) to be eliminated from the championships. This opens the door for everyone to come out and have a blast.

[Greg G.]

The lap time spread between known MO lap times for TTR to TTF is about 30 seconds. We have now improved on that spread and decreased it to 15-20 seconds for each of the two run groups. This will translate to at least one, and probably two or more additional clean laps for the fastest drivers in each group before they start lapping the backmarkers. Known FASTEST lap times for TTG cars that have run in TT at MO are between 2:12 and 2:15. So, the lap time spread in the CDEF(G) group would now be 30-35 seconds--worse than the lap time spread when we had all (TTR -TTF) classes grouped together!!! So, while it may not effect you since you are runnng in TTB, it will effect the fast TTC and TTD drivers (and maybe some of the fast TTE drivers).

 

Drivers are not hauling their cars 1500-2400 miles, and spending many thousands of dollars to get one to two clean laps (before tires are even fully warmed up) per TT session. Another issue is that there have been no TTG entries, and two potential deals with sponsors for prizes will not include a TTG class. This decision was made when there were no TTG entries for 4 months. There have also not been enough TTG entries at the regional level to support the claim of a TTG National Champion. And, there are still not four drivers interested in TTG. And, just forget about TTH. There hasn't been a single TTH competitor in NASA TT that I know of. We might as well break the golf carts out if we are talking about TTH. TTH is a class that is essentially just for the purposes of base classing cars that will be modded up to at least TTG, and hopefully TTF.

 

In fact, this whole discussion about TTG has made me think that we may need to have a rule at the Championships regarding cars that are "too slow". These are the National Championships! We now have two groups to separate the faster classes from the less fast classes. We should not have problems with cars getting lapped within the 2nd timed lap. I really don't think we should have any cars in either group that are more than 20-25 seconds a lap slower than the fastest car.

[zuperdave]

In fact, this whole discussion about TTG has made me think that we may need to have a rule at the Championships regarding cars that are "too slow". These are the National Championships! We now have two groups to separate the faster classes from the less fast classes. We should not have problems with cars getting lapped within the 2nd timed lap. I really don't think we should have any cars in either group that are more than 20-25 seconds a lap slower than the fastest car.

 

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly. You don't think we WILL have any cars in their group more than 25 seconds slower than the fastest or you don't think we should ALLOW them?

[Greg G.]

I don't think we should allow them. Here's the math that explains my reason:

 

Assume a TTC car doing 1:43's and a TTF car doing 25 seconds slower (2:08). Assume 30 cars in the field (40 would make this even worse). Let's first assume that the 30 pre-gridded cars allow one second between cars. Now, when the TTC car begins to ramp up speed after our initial brief paced speed to get all cars on the track, it will already be 30 seconds ahead of the TTF car. Now, if on that first (non-timed) lap, the TTF car is 25 seconds slower than the TTC car, it is now 55 seconds behind. After the first timed lap of the session, the TTF car is now 80 seconds behind the TTC car. By the end of the TTF car's 2nd timed lap, it will be 105 seconds behind the TTC car, which means that it just got lapped (maybe in the Carousel which would ruin the TTC car's lap). In this scenario, the TTC driver gets only two clean timed laps per session (while the poor TTF driver only gets one).

 

Now, the initial 30 seconds that I "assumed" in the scenario above is probably a little long, and if the initial spread was even 5 seconds less, the TTC driver would get his third clean timed lap before catching the TTF driver. However, I assumed a 25 second difference, and Dave R mentioned "more than 25 seconds". So, perhaps the first scenario would be correct in reality.

 

Now, a twenty minute TT session should provide about 8-9 timed laps for a 1:43 second driver. Once a driver starts hitting lapped traffic, it is almost impossible to get a clean lap. Even under the scenario where there is a 15 second spread between fastest and slowest drivers, the leaders will only get 4 (to 5) timed laps before catching the back of the pack. Is it fair to our drivers competing for a National Championship to only get 2 laps before having to pass lapped traffic that is over 10 seconds off the pace of the prior average lap times for that class?

 

Now, the question is how to fairly deal with this potential issue.

[Greg G.]

And yes, I already thought about the possibility of letting the faster guys in the CDEF group run with the RUAB group (BTW, those are still tentative and may need to be rearranged due to differences in car counts between the classes), and the slower RUAB drivers move down to the CDEF group. The problem with that solution is that track conditions could be significantly different for drivers within the same class, depending on which run group they went out with. M-O is known for sudden changes in the weather.

[kbrew8991]

that doesn't seem logical to let cars get seperated out from thier classes

 

B runs with B, F runs with F, etc. I don't care if the weather conditions do or don't change often.

[racerjon1]

Easiest way to do this is by setting a % of time to qualify for Nationals.

 

5 races + 130% (or better) of higest NASA track record.

 

So a competitor you would need to get their 5 events, plus be within 130% of a track record at one of the tracks they ran on.

 

So looking at some tracks it would be something like this:

Buttonwillow #1 CCW: 2:39.05

California ALMS Course: 2:25.44

Infineon ALMS Course: 2:25

Willow Springs: 1:52.17

Autobahn Country Club: 2:03 or so

Road Atlanta: 2:00

Phoenix: 1:27

 

Looking at Danny Popp's 1:32.5 it puts 130% at Mid Ohio right at a 2 min lap, which is 14 seconds behind the SCCA SSC track record, which are TTF cars.. so it is well within reason to go by 130%, it isn't like fast people would be sent home.

 

This also gives room to grow for the series, as classes grow (in both size and speed) then the minimum qualifying time would grow (or shrink depending on how you look at it) with it.

 

Jon K

[subachad]

Easiest way to do this is by setting a % of time to qualify for Nationals.

 

Willow Springs: 1:52.17

 

Jon K

 

Using this method, I guess the 1:51 I was running at Willow Springs in my 110hp Aveo with stock springs and street tires would allow me to run. I couldn't really imagine anyone running slower in a TTF car which is presumably faster than my G classed car. That said, I was SOOO much slower on the straights than all but maybe 2 cars, a Miata and a Sentra.

 

OK, I'm done. After looking over everything I think maybe TTF SHOULD be the slowest run group allowed in an HPDE4 event.

[FastSaleen]

And, just forget about TTH. There hasn't been a single TTH competitor in NASA TT that I know of.

 

Read back in this thread - there was already discussion about a TTH car that ran at Road Atlanta.

[kbrew8991]

he was "passing" Corvettes too

 

[zuperdave]

I would rather not get involved in this debate at this late date, but Greg's comments about dealing with slower cars at Nationals cause me a great deal of concern.

 

I don't think we should allow them.

Now, the question is how to fairly deal with this potential issue.

 

I'd like to say "Just deal with it," but experience tells me I'm likely to be one of the cars in the center of the controversy.

 

First of all, I think TT has an identity crisis that really needs to be resolved in the immediate future. Is it racing, with racing maneuvers accepted, expected, and possibly even admired? Or is it really a race against the clock, where the other car is (supposed to be) irrelevant? I don't think it can be both...

 

Second, I think Greg has been anticipating this issue, especially as it relates to Nationals, which makes me think he doesn't consider it "potential," but probable. My guess is that he has a proposal he has not publicized yet.

 

Third, I think it's BS that this question always seems to be framed as the slower cars messing things up for the faster cars.

 

I'm already asking myself why I'm going back there since I'm not as fast as the other three drivers (four, as soon as the next has done his engine swap) in my bracket here in NorCal. So now everyone in NASA is asking the same question: "Why is Dave going back there if he knows he can't win?"

 

Something about the event being billed as open to everyone with enough qualifying events. There must be something in the water here, too: using your registration numbers, 70% of the entries in TTE and -F are from NorCal. (In fact, there are MANY cars coming from California.) None of us is going to be faster than a TTU car, only one of us is currently faster than everyone else in our group in our region, and only one of us will be faster than everyone else in our group in Ohio. Would anyone seriously suggest that any competitor NOT COMPETE?

 

I don't expect to be 20 seconds/lap slower than the fastest car in my group, but you never know, someone could be really inspired, or I could have a total collapse. Or -- who knows? -- I could be really fast or really lucky. I'm going back there to tear up M-O's track the best I can, scare everyone by showing them how fast I can be with a stock 92 hp motor, and have fun until the wheels come off.

 

I'll take my back-of-the-pack position. But I'll be dipped in sh$t and rolled in peanuts if I'm going to all the trouble to get back there only to find out that based on first-day results I've been DQ'ed from further participation because I did not measure up to some qualifying scheme just launched... I don't see much of an appeal process, since sending me home would mean one less "less fast" car interfering with your "clean lap."

 

It would be different if by some established point in the season (NOT TODAY) I had to have posted a minimum (maximum) qualifying time, like what racerjon1 posted the other day:

 

"Easiest way to do this is by setting a % of time to qualify for Nationals.

5 races + 130% (or better) of highest NASA track record."

 

My proposal is this: since you already know who is the fastest in all of NASA, why not just crown him? Or just forget classification and modifications altogether and look at gross times. Limit participation to the top two or three in each region whose splits are expected to be close enough to avoid lapping/being lapped, re-name your event "NASA Invitational," and send the rest of us "backmarkers" our $$ back to stay home so we don't mess up your action.

 

And, no, that is NOT a request for a refund. It's a request to not be kicked off the track by the guys who think they are BMOC and claim right-of-way because they have 5 times the hp I bring. Someone needs to stop underestimating how fast that momentum car is really going, learn how to judge his closing speed and passing position better, understand that just because he CAN doesn't mean he should, and don't forget that we "less fast" cars can have an otherwise "clean lap" messed up, too: by someone passing us (lapping or not).

[kbrew8991]

I'm with Dave on that one... summed it all up nicely

 

look foward to competing with you there btw