Where to spend your cash for HPDE Upgrades?

[Ev]

I, again, can see your point but your point is made by disregarding any factory roll-over protection and as if the car was being dropped on it's roof not rolled over.

 

I can't imagine running at full speed, which is the only way I will discuss, not having a racing seat and FIVE point harness. Some stock seats are better than others, but you as the driver need to be able to do your job and Drive.

So, are you advocating 5 point without a roll bar? If so, I suspect you haven't seen the effects of rollover on a factory roof without at least a 4 point rollbar. I will say I haven't either personally, but I have done the research and talked to those that have.

 

I stand by my statement, "A 5 point belt without rollover protection or 4 point belt = dumb..... ". Take it for what it's worth.

 

Interesting reading on factory rollover protection....

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/Rollover/Index.htm

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/31/A01-134889.htm

[TexaST-1]

My basis is also that Most occurences are NOT Rollovers more as bumping or banging into moving or unmovable objects. I would still take a 5 point in all cases but especially while engaging in track events.

 

Take that for the truth of daily DE events, (not that am encouraging an such unwanted body contact)

[Ev]

My basis is also that Most occurences are NOT Rollovers more as bumping or banging into moving or unmovable objects. I would still take a 5 point in all cases but especially while engaging in track events.

 

Take that for the truth of daily DE events, (not that am encouraging an such unwanted body contact)

It's your head, not mine do as you like

 

To others, don't do as he does. Daily "DE" events (everyday driving is how I took that), don't involve 100MPH speeds (unless you are an a$$) and approching the traction circle close to the 100% level.

 

True enough, rollovers are rare in DE events, but going on that theory, if you knew when you would need health insurance, you wouldn't pay for it until just before you needed it.

 

Be smart, play safe...

[Frank Corkran]

I, again, can see your point but your point is made by disregarding any factory roll-over protection and as if the car was being dropped on it's roof not rolled over.

Depends on the rollover. Most cars w/o cages may be fine in the typical low speed "slow roll" wheel hook just before stopping, but don't think the roof is designed to stay up in a high speed roll/tumble/flip such as often occurs when going into the T3 gravel sideways at Summit, for example. I've also seen plenty of crashes that involve a significant vertical launch after the initial impact - enough that the car will be "dropped on it's roof" if it rotates enough while airborn. As you mentioned earlier, the roofs of caged race cars involved in some horrific tumbles are often little worse for wear. On the other hand, I've seen street cars with roofs crushed level with the hood/trunk/door sills. In the ones that I know the outcome, the stock seatbacks all broke and the occupants ended up unhurt and lying flat on their backs staring at the headliner until the EV workers arrived to cut them out. I retrieved the instructor from the hospital after one of those involving an M3. Come to think of it, I can't recall a single injury to the driver in an instructed group. Instructors don't always seem to fare as well.

 

I can't imagine running at full speed, which is the only way I will discuss, not having a racing seat and FIVE point harness. Some stock seats are better than others, but you as the driver need to be able to do your job and Drive.

While there's no question it's easier to "do your job and drive" while firmly strapped in, it's not a requirement. It's just something else to get used to and learn to deal with. There are an unlimited number of possible distractions, "doing your job" means driving well in spite of them. Again, I'm not arguing that a cage, race seat and proper harness aren't a major benefit to safety, comfort and the learning curve. I'm just saying that these are not prerequisites to learning to drive safely and well - and fast. Bottom line: stick to stock seats/belts until you are ready to install a proper bar (or cage) and harness. And realize that even a 4-pt bar makes your car less safe in a street/highway accident and renders the rear seat unsafe for any passenger use.

[TexaST-1]

Well I have said my peace, we will have to agree to disagree. There are some good points made.

 

I will say it would actually be an extra challenge to Properly install a 5 point harness without at least a 4 point bar. I did say properly.

[Ev]

Well I have said my peace, we will have to agree to disagree. There are some good points made.

 

I will say it would actually be an extra challenge to Properly install a 5 point harness without at least a 4 point bar. I did say properly.

My primary concern here is safety.

 

Unless you are the only one in the car, you have to consider the lives of others. In your position of School Director, you have influence and a responsibility to your students. Seeing your setup may serve as an indication what is safe, which it isn't. The evidence is irrefutable, 5 point harnesses without proper rollover protection is dangerous, plain and simple. IMHO, You should serve as a better example of what is right and wrong.

 

Please don’t take this as a personal attack. As a member of the safety team, it’s important to me people know what the effect your personal choice may have on them. This is no different than riding a motorcycle without a helmet. Many do it and get away with it, but that doesn’t mean it’s smart. If I were an instructor I wouldn’t get into a car setup like yours. I guess it will take a death to get this setup banned. I just hope it isn’t me that has to clean up the mess…

 

This horse has been beaten to death, I have said my peice.

[TexaST-1]

Bill, You are correct in one thing for sure, a rollover is dangerous.

 

Actually my car is a fully prepared C5 Corvette currently running in VVC. I think you would feel very comfortable and safe in my track car.

[Eric J.]

Ev, You are very correct on a 4 point, in fact the NASA rules make a 4 point illegal because it is more dangerous because of the "Submarine Effect."

 

Actually, that's not true and this was hashed out in bloody detail in threads here a while back. Par 11.4.8 clarifies this in the current rules (2006.5 is what's on the website), that a harness must be DOT certified and installed as per the manufacturers instructions (e.g., don't put belts made for a Subaru in your Mustang). In the previous discussions it was clarified that this means that some 4-pt harnesses are allowed but you must be able to show that your harness was made to go in your car as per manufacturer's literature (an app sheet was described as being adequate).

 

I, at no point, recommended a 4 point. A quality race seat and a 5 point harness.

 

As you've already seen in this thread, there are various opinions about this. I used a Schroth 4-pt for years, which is still compliant with the rules, in a car with no cage or roll bar. Yes, that does mean that in _some_ accident modes you might be more at risk due to the susceptibility to crush injuries from roof intrusion or whatever. However, in my case I weighed this against the improved ability to control the car since the 4-pt prevented me from sliding around so much in the seat.

 

It's a personal tradeoff that should be made once one understands the implications, but I certainly don't fault someone for going the 4-pt route if that's what works best for them. Most of the "safety" modifications for track use are compromises, anyway, one is just taking different optimizations than are considered for street use.

 

There does seem to be a lot of agreement that for track use a full cage and harness are really optimal, but that assumes that you're always wearing a helmet. I've observed that many of the people that criticize folks who use a 4-pt on the track drive their caged car to and from the track without a helmet, sometimes wearing their stock 3-pt, and I think that's more dangerous than wearing a 4-pt on the track (but that's just me).

 

Submarining isn't that much of a risk in a car with an upright seat. It seems that the bigger risk with a 4-pt is that the belt will be worn improperly with the lap belt up off your pelvis and instead up into your soft mushy bits, which don't hold up so well against the lap belt in a frontal impact.

 

It sounds like you're educating yourself to the point of being able to make an informed decision on your own, and I think that's the exact right thing to do.

[Ev]

Video of a soft roll

Notice how far the roof comes in.

 

Imagine the intrusion on a hard roll...

[The Twanksta]

Video of a soft roll

Notice how far the roof comes in.

 

Imagine the intrusion on a hard roll...

 

Ouch!!!

[944-Spec#94]

I belive the idea of 3pts allowing you move under the crushed roof is a myth.

 

In any kind of hard "Joey Hand" type roll over your best chance is to be tighely held in the seat. You will see all kind of injuries if you are flying around in side of the car trying to be held in place by wimpy 3pts.

 

So I think race seats (or at least seats with proper belt routing holes) and a harness properly mounted is safter than 3pts only even without rollover protection.

 

Sure a roll bar is safter on big off, but I would rather have a harness and good seat vs just 3pt points anyway. Plus give than a majority of race track off don't end in roll over I would also be much happier with harness to handle the "on the ground" impacts rather than falsly thinking the 3pt might save me if roll.

 

Now the biggest issues without having a roll bar with a harness is that 95% of the time you can't mount the harness properly without something that really turns into a roll bar. The are "harness bars" out there, but many of these are just not strong enough. Then the only way to get a good harness mount is with roll bar. I do think that if you are considering a seat and harness it would be good to go "all the way" and put in a roll bar to. Really two races seats, two harnesses, a roll bar and HANS makes the car about as safe as you reasonable could for street driven car. You could still add a fire system, but I really would not want a full cage on any car that sees more that just to and from the track street use. Too much danger of unhelmeted head contact to the cage.

[Eric J.]

I strongly recommend that anybody really serious about this stuff get a copy of the 2004 SCCA Safety Symposium DVD. They were giving this out for a $50 (IIRC) or more donation to the SCCA Foundation. This includes talks from some of the world's leading race safety experts, guys that do the research behind the safety issues for the FIA and other top sanctioning bodies.

 

Very much worth the money to obtain and time to watch (it's something like four or five hours worth of material). My view of race safety was completely changed after watching this.

[Bruce L.]

I used to believe the no harness without a rollbar line of thinking and wouldn't instruct in a car with that combo. However, last year I listened to and talked to Joe Marko about it and changed my mind. Check out the seminar transcript at

http://www.justracing.com/seminar_archives/viewtopic.php?t=5

for a lot of good info.

 

Being restrained and in control such that you avoid the offs is more important than the probability of a rollover roof crush. More injuries happen with a 3 point belt when the car rolls and the driver falls down on their head, or their body parts are flailling out the window.

cheers,

bruce

[Eric J.]

I used to believe the no harness without a rollbar line of thinking and wouldn't instruct in a car with that combo. However, last year I listened to and talked to Joe Marko about it and changed my mind. Check out the seminar transcript at

http://www.justracing.com/seminar_archives/viewtopic.php?t=5

for a lot of good info.

 

Yeah, good stuff there. I'm always surprised at the amount of misunderstandings there are on race-safety issues even among "educated" racers. Getting the scoop from the safety guys is best. The SCCA safety vid is solid gold.

 

Being restrained and in control such that you avoid the offs is more important than the probability of a rollover roof crush. More injuries happen with a 3 point belt when the car rolls and the driver falls down on their head, or their body parts are flailling out the window.

 

I've been saying that for years, from back when I installed a Schroth in a cageless car for exactly that reason. The bottom line is that people need to make an informed decision on their own after considering the tradeoffs.

[midngn]

If you need a good tire for HPDE, the discontinued Z211 is an exceptional track day tire and the prices are greatly reduced. Check the link above and mention that they are for use with NASA.

 

http://www.frisbyracetire.com/z211sale.html

[wneal32]

I have been using my OEM seat in an 06 Vette, Running in group 3 with a 6 point harness and hardbar.

 

I don't move around but still use my arms to keep myself positioned.

 

Sat in a good quality racing seat installed in a Z06 last week and was nothing short of amazed at the difference.

Was told I just about would not need belts at all for that baby to hold me in.

 

The ? now is, what kind to get, changability etc.

Getting help from a master though, Danny Popp himself

)))))))