C5 vette base class ??

[loudes13]

C5 vette base class

 

Ok, a buddy is selling his C5 corvette coupe, it's pretty miley, so the price is rather attractive. I don't know if it has the cockpit adjustable FX3 or Z51 suspension. I read that the C5 base class is TTB. I'm not sure what penalty(s) the suspension is worth. Now Nasa works off of the base package car, not like SCCA which works with any and all factory available options. The base (according to Chevy) C5 is the Fixed Roof Coupe (FRC) with comes standard with the z51. The FRC was the price leader with no targa, and limited options. I don't think FX3 was available. I don't know the exact differences between the 2 suspensions, other than 3 driver settable options of FX3.

 

C5 FRC standard with z51

 

C5 Coupe standard with FX3, optional z51

 

The way I read it; the FRC has a base class of TTB, and no additional points, even though it has z51. The Coupe has zero pts for FX3, and additional pts for z51. Is that correct? How many pts is the z51 worth?

 

Now I'm assuming that Chevy tweaked the shocks, sways, and shocks setting SOME with the z51. That would add up to 6 pts on the coupe. If that's the case, it would wise to 'take these pts' with more performance orientated aftermarket shocks, sways, and shocks.

 

As you can tell, I love reading the GCR, thinking about racing, and theorizing about car set-ups. I love this stuff!

[RAFTRACER]

All 97-04 C5 Corvettes , unless they are a Z06, have a base class of TTB with no additional acrued points. FRC , coupes and convertibles all were available with the Z51 package and the Z51 package slightly varied between years. Even though the FRC was the base or standard model in the years 99-00 they are the most desirable for performance cars because they are slightly lighter. The coupes are better as far as aero goes, and that is primarily the reason that the C6 Z06's are coupe bodies ( besides being able to carry golf clubs ).

I think that the C5 is the car to have in TTB, and no one has quite done it yet. Don't be suprised if I show up with a 99 C5 FRC for my super-sized National entry........I am thinking about running two classes.

Additionally if you mod a C5 non-Z06 you can unlimitedly mod one and stay in TTU , with no possiblility of TTR unless it makes in excess of 560rwhp................Can't do that currently with a Z06.

[John Graber]

Working from memory, but Danny can interject if I am off base on the stats, and Greg can interject if I'm off base on the interpretation.

 

Base car would be TTB for the C5. The '99-00' FRC C5 came standard with the Z51 suspension package. If you drive a 100% stock FRC you would need to take points for all of the Z51 suspension components, period. The FRC transformed in '01 into the ZO6 which has even better components and a much higher base class, so there could be a potential loophole here providing different upgrade paths and ultimate classes.

 

That said, the stock FRC could also potentially get killed by another FRC which has much better suspension components since you are taking "most" of the points anyway. In other words. If the FRC get +2 for upgraded sway bars over the base C5 you could change the stock "upgraded" FRC sways to something really trick for no additional points potentially.

 

As you may suspect, this potential loophole or pitfall in the rules will most likely be addressed in the near future so I wouldn't spend my life savings building the car right now. If I had 5 or 6 different corvettes laying around though I might consider the possibilities. Unless I was already beating everyone else in the current class I run in.

 

John

[rrrracer]

Oh so what, one TT championship is not good enough for you Popp?

 

S

[RAFTRACER]

Working from memory, but Danny can interject if I am off base on the stats, and Greg can interject if I'm off base on the interpretation.

 

Base car would be TTB for the C5. The '99-00' FRC C5 came standard with the Z51 suspension package. If you drive a 100% stock FRC you would need to take points for all of the Z51 suspension components, period. The FRC transformed in '01 into the ZO6 which has even better components and a much higher base class, so there could be a potential loophole here providing different upgrade paths and ultimate classes.

 

That said, the stock FRC could also potentially get killed by another FRC which has much better suspension components since you are taking "most" of the points anyway. In other words. If the FRC get +2 for upgraded sway bars over the base C5 you could change the stock "upgraded" FRC sways to something really trick for no additional points potentially.

 

As you may suspect, this potential loophole or pitfall in the rules will most likely be addressed in the near future so I wouldn't spend my life savings building the car right now. If I had 5 or 6 different corvettes laying around though I might consider the possibilities. Unless I was already beating everyone else in the current class I run in.

 

John

 

I am thinking that what you are talking about would be wrong.................... Any C5 can be equipped with a Z51 option and all FRC's were Z51's, but the FRC was "considered" the base model,so.........

 

I guess we'll find out @ Mid-Ohio.

 

If I drive a 99 FRC Z51 car @ MO , it will have 12 add-on pts. , I wouldn't want to have both of my cars not maxed in points.

[Red Tornado]

Danny run your normal Z06 so I have something to strive for.

 

The rules are not 560rwhp it's like 450rwhp if I recall.

 

My goal is top 5 in TTU in a street driven to the event car.

With 35 points used all the wrong ways.

[RAFTRACER]

Danny run your normal Z06 so I have something to strive for.

 

The rules are not 560rwhp it's like 450rwhp if I recall.

 

My goal is top 5 in TTU in a street driven to the event car.

With 35 points used all the wrong ways.

 

I dont own a "normal" Z06, My other car is a full blown SCCA ASP autocross car that is 50lbs lighter than my TT car and makes 25 more rwhp and has all of the same suspension components.

 

I'll read the rules again, but I am pretty sure that there is no way for a TTB car to be in TTR unless it makes in excess of 560rwhp,has a sequential gearbox, or modified tub/floor pan or tube frame.

 

My TTU car has plates and has already traveled many,many miles this year from OLOA. No sense in wearing it out any further. Plus which if something breaks, its nice to have the trailer there (especially when it has extra wheels and tires in it ).

Edited August 26, 2006 by Guest

[RAFTRACER]

Oh so what, one TT championship is not good enough for you Popp?

 

S

 

Since my TTU car has one of the higher power to wieght ratios in the class, I thought it might not be a bad idea to try another class. Unfortuneatly, unlike the EVO's I have no boost control. Last event I tried to stay with John K. on the back straight , I picked up the throttle first and he put 175-200 feet on me ....................and I know they have more. I just dont want to be behind any of those "over-boosted" cars if they decide to loose a head gasket or have "parts seeking daylight".

I dont know if TTB will be feasible since that class may run at the same time as TTU. If that doesnt work out, I may run TTD again. But this time it will not be in a SM.

[Red Tornado]

I think you have it a little backwards.

With over the rwhp limit, etc.. you go into TTR.

 

Points will quickly get you from TTB to TTU but then it is uncapped except for those rules that bump you to TTR.

[RAFTRACER]

No, I've got it straight. Standard C5 non-Z06 <560rwhp= legal in TTU. 561 rwhp=TTR. Isn't that what I said previously ?????? That means Chris that you and I should be down exactly about 100 rwhp from waht they will allow the EVO's to run at , even though they run at the same wieght , from what I understand.

 

Chris, I made a typo in the above post, you were right , it did appear that I had it backwards. Corrected above post

Edited August 26, 2006 by Guest

[John Graber]

Chris is right. Any TTB car with enough points will easily jump into TTU. It's the jump to TTR that is HP driven from TTB.

 

Also, you are wrong on the C5 / FRC issue. The Base car in the TTB class is the C5. If the FRC or any any other C5 has any factory options they are all assessed points.

 

Base class = equipment standard on the base model

 

For instance, my 911 has a factory rear wing standard in the cab model. However, the base model coupe did not have the wing and therefore I am assessed +2 for the addition of the wing on my car. Also, since I'm being assessed the +2 for the factory wing I can change it to anything I want, including some big honking sprint car thing, and it won't cost me any more points than the +2 I'm already getting.

 

John

[RAFTRACER]

Sorry John, but as I said before the FRC (which were all Z51 cars) were from GM , the base model Corvette.......The coupe and the convertible were both extra cost options that added wieght. On the coupe and the covertible the "Z51" package, however was not standard. So If the C5 FRC was the "standard" or "base" model, the Z51 option will mean that it takes no additional points . I will confirm this for you guys in the original sales literature. The FRC car ( which again includes Z51) was not only the base or standard car , it was the cheapest.

SO this adds to the complexity of the rules, if you have a FRC it should carry no additional points for Z51, but if you have a coupe or convertible with Z51 you have to add points ?????? Rules need some work here guys. You should be able to update/backdate within year of the vehicle for no extra points.There is always going to be the "right"car to have.Things are going to be busy at MO in September..........Is it the owners responsibility to prove the car legal or the comittees responsibility to prove that it is not.......

I fully know the C5 Corvette/Z06 TTU/TTR break out............rules consistancy guys, thats what we need next year.

[John Graber]

Stock cars are defined mostly as those "without factory options." Clearly the FRC car has "factory options." Even though it's price may be less than those other models without the options, it would still be assessed the points in my mind.

 

So, I'd send the question to GG and get him to make an "official" ruling on the exact model and then list this ruling in the TT Rules adendums/Clarrifications section in this forum.

 

John

[RAFTRACER]

Stock cars are defined mostly as those "without factory options." Clearly the FRC car has "factory options." Even though it's price may be less than those other models without the options, it would still be assessed the points in my mind.

 

So, I'd send the question to GG and get him to make an "official" ruling on the exact model and then list this ruling in the TT Rules adendums/Clarrifications section in this forum.

 

John

 

Make sure he or you does the research, I would hate for someone to be wrong. The C5 FRC was base model , Z51 suspension package was standard on that model. Seems pretty cut and dried to me..........We cant be changing the rules this late in the game now, can we ????? The poor guys with the coupes and Z51............ taking points for sway bars .

 

BTW John I did reference last night the original sales literature. I can bring to Mid-Ohio if you would like to see it. I may have it for my own needs anyway.

 

I can't believe this is causing such a stir..................

[RAFTRACER]

Porsche guys deciding on Corvette legalities ??????

 

I think that you ought to be more worried personally in TTD about the C4 cars.........................

[John Graber]

Now you see why I deferred it to Greg. I'm done with this issue. Greg gets paid the big bucks to make the big decisions. I'm just a regional peon trying to carry my lonely 40+ local TT'ers through the year.

 

Now let's see, the thread was initiated by a guy leading and winning all events in his class by 5 seconds (TTD). Then DP chimed in again about it and he's leading his class (TTU) by what, another 5 seconds. Sometimes there are just trouble makers out there! Plus, I never did get the promised RAFT racing hat so I'm holding a grudge anyway.

 

J

[RAFTRACER]

John, this is just a friendly debate. I think (as well as many,many others) that you do an outstanding job with the OH/IN TT Group and you certainly make it a pleasure to be involved with NASA.

 

RAFT decal and hat in tow vehicle currently for JG..................

 

I am not trying to be trouble make either, I just dont want this kind of stuff to explode @ MO.

[John Graber]

10-4

Currently we have only 1 car that falls in this categoy and it is modified to run in TTU. So, the only way this will become an issues at MO is if someone is trying to build or bring a car, not previously run in TT, which will fall within this little "gap."

 

J

 

Wow, stickers and hat....gracias! Is there contingent money if I put them on my car?

[RAFTRACER]

Contigency........Yes, we will allow you to keep your stickers hat if you finish well at every event or do something spectacular.......If you happen to trophy we will help supply beer for that evening..... One thing first , when we induct you into our RAFT gang, there is a college hazing like initiation process to go through.

[trackboss]

RAFTRACER, I sent you a pm a few days ago about the C5, did you get it?

 

thanks,

-V

[Greg G.]

Source - GM Corporation

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There are three fully independent, four-wheel, short-/long-arm suspension choices. The base suspension provides excellent ride and handling. Optional F45 is the high-tech choice offering Selective Real-Time Damping. The optional Z51 package is designed for the owner who wants to compete in autocrosses.

The stiffest underbody structure in the car's history consists of two full-length, hydroformed perimeter frame rails coupled to a stiff backbone tunnel. The rails consist of a single piece of tubular steel, replacing the 14 parts previously used.

 

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Any C5 with the Z51 will need to take points for this upgraded suspension. As well, the trim models used to classify the C5 were the Coupe and Convertible. Any driver entering a Hardtop (FRC) will need to either use the Alternate Weight method for Weight Reduction points assessment (based on the 3246 weight in our database), or take an additional 4 points for wt. reduction in addition to any other weight reduction points. So, while the FRC will not be bumped to the TTA base class before the Championships (although I'm getting tempted to, since some people are craving more consistency), it will be getting assessed these additional points. So, while this won't effect the TTU to TTR bump, it will keep the less modded C5's in the class they belong in.

[RAFTRACER]

While the text that you have acquired deals with the 97-98 cars, this does not address the 99-00 FRC cars. The FRC was base car and came equipped with Z51. I think that when you actually scale one it will not be as light as you think. Additionally most people felt that the slightly lighter wieght was over come by its worse aerodynamics, probably why GM always raced the coupe body vs. the fixed roof coupe. This should also be addressed in the TT rules as body style if you guys are going to do something with this because C5 is a very broad term. If NASA is going to separate FRC from coupes and convertibles , they will be differentiating more than NCCC (National Corvette Club) who runs these cars together and only separates them from Z06's. In NCCC group 2 they just this year separated Z06's from base, but whn modified in group 3 (TTU) they are all considered equal because at that point there is no difference.

You guys can change rules and classes fro stuff that you are afraid of at the last second, why dont you look again at the problem with Z06's going to TTR with only 28 pts..........................

[RAFTRACER]

Is any body prepared to police this Z51 thing, sway bar size is easy..........the other differences are not. You guys are making your jobs signicantly harder by the rules set. Best car should be base classed and allowed to update within model years.......Whole lot easier for the scrutineers.............

[Greg G.]

You guys can change rules and classes fro stuff that you are afraid of at the last second, why dont you look again at the problem with Z06's going to TTR with only 28 pts..........................

 

We aren't changing the rules for anything. The FRC was never addressed in our classification of the C5, and as you have pointed out multiple times, it is the Z06 precursor. The base C5 that was classified was a pre-FRC trim model.

 

The reason that we don't look again at the "problem" with the Z06's going to TTR with only 28 points is that we don't think there is a problem with Z06's going to TTR with only 28 points. We never intended on TTU cars being multiple seconds faster than T1 record times. All of this will likely change in '07 anyway when we add our two GPC classes between PTA and SU.

[RAFTRACER]

The FRC was classed as C5 , ....... Same as a Coupe or Convertible, should we reclass the convertible too, since it is also slightly lighter ??????

 

From the above post it sounds as if you are judging my car by the performance of an individual(which the rules also state that it is not supposed to be)..........If you can find a "pro" driver that I trust maybe we can have someone else evaluate the highest power to weight ratio car that will compete in TTU at nationals............

 

I keep reading over and over again the intent of TTU and TTR in the rules . My car must be outside of those guidlines for some reason (because it is a Z06 ). It's not too late for me to bring a coupe bodied 550 rwhp TTU car, although I would rather drive mine albeit no where near as fast.

 

I am done now.........................................][/b]