2007 team racing rules.

[brian-groth]

Since this is something I was looking at for next year, I have found a couple of potential issues.

 

22.4.1: The intent of the NASA team rule is to allow two (2) drivers to share the cost of racing one car during a racing season.

 

Does this limit us to using only one car for the team. It could be interpeted this way, although that is not what has been enforced.

 

22.4.3 : Once the team is declared the two (2) drivers shall have their points tallied together. Either driver may race or qualify the car, however both drivers must be registered for that event.

 

Does this mean that both drivers have to be registered at every event thru the season? If I am interpeting this correctly, this is not consistant with what I saw this year?

 

I would propose to have the flexability of two drivers forming a team and cordinating the schedule to work to where at least one can attend. (with thier own cars, not one)

 

Brian

[King Matt]

I'm pretty sure the rule about both drivers being registered only applies to events where both intend to drive the car. I think there is also a provision in registration for an extra driver, so if two drivers share one car, they don't pay two full entry fees. In CMC you can have teams with two cars and two drivers, but then only one car/driver can earn points at any given event. It seems like all these team rules should be standardized in the CCRs and enforced the same way nationally.

[D Algozine]

More questions:

 

If more than one car is allowed per team, then how is the team scored if both drivers race in the same race? I hope it's not just the best finish out of the two.

Not sure what the point of calling someone a champion in a series if they shared the driving and each have a car. Sounds like two guys racing and making sure they have the points covered. What 's the point?

 

It's gets a little fuzzy for me. An indivual having a back up car is one thing, but two drivers and two cars? Again, I don't see how this fits into a year end championship. You either race for the year end championship or you just race when you can.

[brian-groth]

Dave,

I read through the rules, if both cars race, the worst finisher of the two is scored.

 

I agree with you, if both cars are going to run, I think you should have to at least declare the car running for points before qualifying preferrably, but deffinatly before the race.

 

Brian

[RichardC]

I'm not in favor of having the two team mates on track at the same time, it just opens it up to complaints of interference.

 

If you're a team then it should be one driver at a time.

 

I also think that if you are a team then each driver must maintain a minimum number of race entries, for example the minimum might be 30% so one driver could drive 70% and the other 30% or any combination but not less than 30%.

 

I do not agree in having teams if it's just used as an emergency fill in if a car fails or a driver can't make one race.

 

Richard.

[D Algozine]

I'm not in favor of having the two team mates on track at the same time, it just opens it up to complaints of interference.

 

I do not agree in having teams if it's just used as an emergency fill in if a car fails or a driver can't make one race.

 

Richard.

 

I agree. If the whole point of a team is so two drivers can campain one car, the rules need to written to eliminate the other possible scenorios, and there are many. Some are being discussed in this thread. I saw a big loop hole exploited at the Aug Mid-Ohio race.

[chicane23]

The team can run both AI and AIX or even CMC, this will put them on track together.

 

What is the difference between one driver having a back up car or two drivers having a back up car.

 

The points follow the Driver or Drivers.

[D Algozine]

The team can run both AI and AIX or even CMC, this will put them on track together.

 

What is the difference between one driver having a back up car or two drivers having a back up car.

 

The points follow the Driver or Drivers.

 

I've got a better question, whats the point of two drivers having two cars and operating as a single team. Aren't they just simply two seperate drivers who want to make sure they cover the points at all the races. There are several reasons why this is not a good idea. First of all, according to the rules, the whole point of a team is so two guys can campain one car, by sharing costs and mechanic duties (ie, time).

 

Here are just a few unfair advantages:

 

1) Driver A gets suspended, so his "teamate", who may not have ever driven any other race for the team, drives his car and the team, or actually driver A gets the points.

 

2) Teammates both drive at the same race:

Opportunity for blocking or otherwise effecting other's finishing position.

 

3) Teammates both have cars, but don' race at the same time.

Anytime driver A can't make the race, his teammate races and the team, or actually driver A gets the points. Doesn't seem right unless they are sharing a car, even then I'm not in favor of it.

 

Personally, I don't think any team should have the opportunity to be scored as one. Each driver should get points when they drive, regardless of the car. Otherwise it really deminishes the whole point of calling someone a champion. If it took a team of two drivers it's not "a" champion, it's a team, which is entirely different.

 

What's the point, of having "a" champion. Just give out best team award. The whole point of winning a champion is getting to the required events and having good finishes, which includes a mechanically sound, well built, properly set up, car, and an excellent driver. If the duties are spread out over two cars and two drivers, then they just doubled there chance of a successful race.

[Jeff F]

The whole point of winning a champion is getting to the required events and having good finishes, which includes a mechanically sound, well built, properly set up, car, and an excellent driver. If the duties are spread out over two cars and two drivers, then they just doubled there chance of a successful race.

I agree, and that is exactly why I brought up the subject of backup cars earlier, but no-one had a problem with it.

 

The fact that I only have one car puts me at a disadvantage to someone who has a backup available. This year I finished 4th in the points with one driver and one car. The #2 guy needed 3(!) cars, the #3 guy needed 2 cars and 2 drivers (due to a 1-race suspension). Without the backups, I would have been 2nd despite a wreck that took me out of the August race and used up all my drops. I'd say that as a driver/car builder I outperformed them. If the contest is really one man and one machine, then lets make it no teams, and one car per weekend for points.

[Sidney]

I agree with Jeff. One driver, one car...one Champion.

 

Sidney Franklin

AI #64

[chicane23]

The rules allow for multiple cars and multiple drivers and to be honest with you some people have two and three cars for spares. It's all about how bad do you want to win!

 

The idea of a team is to save money and or allow two people with less cash to race as a team, this providing drivers with the opportunity to race with a combined budget.

The maintenance and upkeep on one car is cheaper than two, but if you look at it in a different light you have two drivers that want to race. They can't afford it alone so they create a team. Both drivers have track cars, so the pick the better of the two cars to run. Now, if that car breaks you have a second car to finish the season. You don't have to spend unwanted cash right now and rushing the job of repair.

 

There are rules in place to protect you from being blocked please refer to CCR 25.4.4

 

I would believe if a driver is suspended the team is suspended as well, but that is a call JWL will need to make.

 

Back ups are back ups, what is the different in having a back up motor or anything else?

[brian-groth]

Since this post has come alive again, I want to explain why I am considering a team approach. I am not trying to win anybodies opinion over, but give a real life situation rather than a bunch of hypotheticals.

 

I discussed racing next year with a racer on the other end of the region. He could race at the Mid-Ohio and Putnam races, and I would race at MAM, RA, Brainerd, ect (assuming a similar schedule for next year , as we had for this year)

 

This is not to find a loophole or anything, it was because I am finding it harder and harder to muster the desire 14 hours each way to a "Midwest" race located out of the Midwest region. For that reason, I support the team idea.

 

The points you all make are very valid and certainly should be addressed as well. There are loopholes that need to be closed.

 

Brian

[tacovini]

I think the intent of the team concept is to have "A" car on grid which would otherwise be sitting at home in the garage because someone couldn't make 1 or 2 race weekends in a season. Having a team, keeps people "in the hunt" for the season points championship and brings another car event after event.

 

For instance....If I miss two or three events I'm pretty much out of the championship points race, so (other than having some fun) I might reconsider coming out to the track. But...if I can have someone cover for me when I can't make it to the track, well then we're still in the chase, will be sure to come to each event and don't have to throw away an entire racing season because of "that damn wedding" I had to go to.

 

Personally, I don't think we should reconsider the team concept until we have 50 car fields like NASCAR and folks have to qualify to race. Only then will having a backup car be a true advantage.

 

Just my opinion...

 

-=- Todd

[D Algozine]

I think the intent of the team concept is to have "A" car on grid which would otherwise be sitting at home in the garage because someone couldn't make 1 or 2 race weekends in a season. Having a team, keeps people "in the hunt" for the season points championship and brings another car event after event.

 

For instance....If I miss two or three events I'm pretty much out of the championship points race, so (other than having some fun) I might reconsider coming out to the track. But...if I can have someone cover for me when I can't make it to the track, well then we're still in the chase, will be sure to come to each event and don't have to throw away an entire racing season because of "that damn wedding" I had to go to.

 

Personally, I don't think we should reconsider the team concept until we have 50 car fields like NASCAR and folks have to qualify to race. Only then will having a backup car be a true advantage.

 

Just my opinion...

 

-=- Todd

 

This falls under the "lowest common denominator" rule. Meaning, one guy or a few guys are going to miss a few races so, the rules need to be written, so he/she doesn't get penalized for missing. What about the other 8-10 racers who did make every event, and skipped the wedding, and stayed up till 3am 4 nights in a row to finish the car, and hauled 12hrs to make a far reaching event. Why should they loose the championship to a "team" that was able to split the time in half?

Most regions allow drops to offset a family function that can't be missed, or a mechanical that puts you out for a whole weekend. Drops are an excellent way to keep a level playing field for everyone, especially at this level of racing.

The idea of two guys sharing the time and cost for one car seems harmless enough, and appears to make perfect sence, but I would hate to loose a championship to a team. Who actually wins, one driver or both? I think it's great that two guys team up to attend events, but then they shouldn't be points racing. Each guy gets points for whenever he drives. They are two guys who love to race, have a blast at the track, but prefer to share the time and costs, which is great. However, if two guys are allowed to campain one car to share the costs and time, then the rules to be written to eliminate the many loop holes that can, and have been, exploited.

 

As far as back up cars, I don't see how you can regulate that. Does an engine change get categorized as a new car? How about a whole front end, or a rear diff? Where do you draw the line? What if a guy shows up with a 10 man pit crew and an entire car in pieces as extra parts?

The fact is some time winning can come down to dollars spent. I don't see how you can regulate that. For me, it's about one guy driving a legal car, it doesn't matter if it's his first or third car.

 

With all do respect to Brian, I think his scenorio is exactly the one that needs to be avoided. He does have some long hauls, that are probably beyond what should be expected of him. Perhaps, those hauls need to be resolved, not making other concessions.

[JWL]

Folks-

 

Excellent discussion and I think what this points to is that the rule in the CCR itself is fine, but some fine tuning in interpretation is needed.

 

Let me provide some clarity that we can use here:

 

1) Teams must be declared in writing to your RD or AI Series Director before either driver on the team races for the season.

 

2) Teams need to be diligent about making sure T&S knows they are participating as a team. Make sure they're scoring you as Team X so we don't run into confusion later on.

 

3) If a driver on a team screws the pooch whilst driving for the team, the team and driver at fault will serve the penalty but the non-offending team member can score points on their own. Example: Stroker Ace and Captain Chaos form Team Cannonball. Stroker goes out behind the wheel of their Chicken Shack Buick Special in the first race of the weekend and firmly punts Bo Duke in the General Lee off track with damage. Stroker must be DQ'ed and sit out for a race and Team Cannonball also suffers a DQ and cannot score in the next race. However, Chaos is free to strap on the bucket and race on his own accord on Sunday.

 

4) Teams are free to use any legal car they can come up with. If we begin to try a policy similar to the ChiCom's "One Child" policy where each team or driver is limited to one car per season we will face all sorts of headaches as we accelerate down the slippery slope. When is a car "different"? What if someone buys a new ride mid-season? What if someone brings a Cobra R to the track and everyone quits because all your base are belong to Cobra R? Chaos! (kidding on the last one)

 

So, the rules will remain as is and we will try to be diligent here to make sure no monkey business takes place.

 

Thanks and look for the 2007 wholesome goodness next week.

 

-JWL

[D Algozine]

What if Batman and Speed racer teamed up, and they drove a Cobra R? Do you think they could beat Ernesto and Jason ?

 

I sent an email to Chris Griswold, our regional AI director, asking for some clarificaitons.

[brian-groth]

Wow, didn't know there was so much fear for the "R"

 

Brian

[King Matt]

Well, it does stand for "Racecar" doesn't it?

 

As far as JWL's comments, I think point #3 does need to be edited into the rules so it's clear to everyone dat dem is the rules.

[944-Spec#94]

Seems to me the intent of the "team" is quite clear.

 

Consider Bill & Ted.

 

The are good friends and each wants to race, but they can't do it alone. So they buy 1 car and build/maintain it together. The share the car so one races Saturday and the other on Sunday.

 

Well given that their is no way either of them could win a championship since they could only enter 1/2 the races each. So enter the concept of the "team". This way both of them can race the same car complete with all those one driver per car people.

 

Of course it does not mean the rule can be abuse in some way, but spirit is quite clear. Bill & Ted share the car and have way cool excellent adventure!

[racercosmo]

But why don't Bill and Ted use their phone booth and go back to change the AI schedule so they can make all of the races?

[944-Spec#94]

Bill & Ted can only afford 1/2 of a race car. That is why they share. Has nothing to do with schedules.

[Black Horse]

One point I would like to make - I think a Team should have to "Declare" their driver for an event PRIOR to the event. Once the event starts the declared driver is the one that receives the points earned, penalties collected, etc. The other driver could run, but not for points (unless he/she runs in a different class).

[chicane23]

What happens if one driver gets sick or something like that?

 

What does it really matter if they declare a driver before or not? Does that change the way you race the event?

[Black Horse]

What happens if one driver gets sick or something like that?

 

What does it really matter if they declare a driver before or not? Does that change the way you race the event?

 

It COULD change things.....take for example:

 

Bill and Ted are co-drivers - they both come to an event, both take pratice in the car during practice sessions. Bill finds he is 2 seconds faster than Ted. So Ted drives the car during the race. Where does it end? Can Ted qualify the car then Bill race it?

[944-Spec#94]

What happens if one driver gets sick or something like that?

 

What does it really matter if they declare a driver before or not? Does that change the way you race the event?

 

It COULD change things.....take for example:

 

Bill and Ted are co-drivers - they both come to an event, both take pratice in the car during practice sessions. Bill finds he is 2 seconds faster than Ted. So Ted drives the car during the race. Where does it end? Can Ted qualify the car then Bill race it?

 

I my mind a team is just that a team. Two drivers working together as one. The car would be scored as "Team Bill & Ted". There are rules for qualfying drivers in enduro's, but since the sprint race formula does not allow for driver changes I personally would not care.

 

Per the rules at the start of the season they need to "declare" as team. I am Az director for 944 spec. We are a really low budget class and I know of two guys building 944 spec car. They will start in DE for while, but eventually race. I would hope that they take advantage of the Team rules and run as team. The share car number 54 for example. One chassis and both Bill and Ted share the driving duties. Really I as series director would not care how they split things up, but for the entire season all results for car #54 would be scored as "Team Bill & Ted". If someone other than Bill or Ted drive then it needs to be scored differently, but I would treat them as one driver.

 

John brought up the bonehead penalty part of this where Bill does somethign dumb and gets penalized while driving as "Team Bill & Ted". So Bill is penalized and so is the team. If Ted wants to race he can, but he cannot collect points as part of the team. He must do so solo.

 

Now I both Bill & Ted have one car each then I would just advise them to run as two car team with Bill scored seperately from Ted. This way they could race together and have more fun.

 

On realted note this past weekend we had two racers share a car. In this case the real names were Glenn and Norm. Both have their own cars, but Glenn's gave him problems on Saturday and could not race. Norm gratiously gave Glenn the used of his car on Sunday. Both are fast, but out of the points race due to missing events. Glenn when back and forth about really racing the car and Norm as I Glenn could qualfy and Norm could race. I said yes, but Norm would have to start at the back since he did not qualfy the car. Of course remember that these two are not a "Team". In the end Glenn qualfied and raced the car. He infact won too so he personaly was awared Toyo tires prizes and first place points.

 

I really don't understand why this is so complex. It is really simple

 

2 Drivers + 1 car = Natural Team - Both drivers scored as 1.

2 Drivers + 2 cars = 2 car team - both drivers scored individually.

 

If you hae 2 drivers and 2 cars, but the never ever share the track at the same time I guess the could be like a 1 car team, but I can ever see that happening.