D Algozine Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 If you hae 2 drivers and 2 cars, but the never ever share the track at the same time I guess the could be like a 1 car team, but I can ever see that happening Read Brians orginal post, that is exactly what he is asking about. Since this is something I was looking at for next year, I have found a couple of potential issues. 22.4.1: The intent of the NASA team rule is to allow two (2) drivers to share the cost of racing one car during a racing season. Does this limit us to using only one car for the team. It could be interpeted this way, although that is not what has been enforced. 22.4.3 : Once the team is declared the two (2) drivers shall have their points tallied together. Either driver may race or qualify the car, however both drivers must be registered for that event. Does this mean that both drivers have to be registered at every event thru the season? If I am interpeting this correctly, this is not consistant with what I saw this year? I would propose to have the flexability of two drivers forming a team and cordinating the schedule to work to where at least one can attend. (with thier own cars, not one) Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Matt Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 The traditional NASA interpretation of a "team" is two drivers sharing one car and splitting the track time and operating budget. The idea of two separate car/driver units each competing separately in half of a region's events, but then combining their points at the end of the season to claim a "team" championship seems outside of the intent stated in the current rule, but I think that scenario is partially addressed in the rules. If both car/driver units compete at the same event, only the lowest finishing position scores points for the team, right? So let's imagine the scenario where Bill and Ted are racing as a team, each with his own car at the same event, and Bill gets DQ'd for an on-track incident that carries a 1-race suspension. Do the DQ and subsequent suspension count as that team's lowest finish in those two races? Now let's say the above incident occured but Ted was not racing at that event. Does any part of that penalty carry over to the next event that Ted wants to race at for Team Bill & Ted using his own car? If not, Bill and Ted may have figured out how to nullify Ted's penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian-groth Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 Basically it comes down to: Is it just as justified to form a team because of traveling distance(time) and costs (with seperate cars) as it is to share costs and time on one single car? Since nowhere in the rules does it say we have to compete with the same car all year, I see the fact as a team competing with two different cars irrelevent.........unless NASA see's it differently. That was part of the reason for starting the thread. I have tried to imagine how I would feel loosing the championship to a team, regarless if it was two cars or not. It would be a hard pill to swallow, no doubt. Personally I think the biggest benefit of a two man team is being able to pick and choose the best driver at a given track. That would be a huge advantage. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XAIX Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 22.4.1: The intent of the NASA team rule is to allow two (2) drivers to share the cost of racing one car during a racing season. 22.4.3 : Once the team is declared the two (2) drivers shall have their points tallied together. Either driver may race or qualify the car, however both drivers must be registered for that event. Is this is a drivers championship or a team championship? When I raced a SP-2000 in the American City Racing League it was a combination of both. There was an individual driver’s championship and a team championship. My brother and I shared the car. He would race one race and I the next. We were on a three car team. Our points at each race went towards the team championship but our individual points were only tallied for each of us towards the individual driver’s championship so we stood no chance of winning the individual driver’s championship. A team could run 2 car team but would be at a disadvantage for the team championship as other 3 car teams would be tallying points for 3 cars VS 2, You could even run a 4 car team but only the top 3 car’s points would go towards the team championship. All four drivers could however count their individual points towards the individual driver’s championship. 22.4.1 states clearly (“share the cost†Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 22.4.1: The intent of the NASA team rule is to allow two (2) drivers to share the cost of racing one car during a racing season. 22.4.3 : Once the team is declared the two (2) drivers shall have their points tallied together. Either driver may race or qualify the car, however both drivers must be registered for that event. Is this is a drivers championship or a team championship? When I raced a SP-2000 in the American City Racing League it was a combination of both. There was an individual driver’s championship and a team championship. My brother and I shared the car. He would race one race and I the next. We were on a three car team. Our points at each race went towards the team championship but our individual points were only tallied for each of us towards the individual driver’s championship so we stood no chance of winning the individual driver’s championship. A team could run 2 car team but would be at a disadvantage for the team championship as other 3 car teams would be tallying points for 3 cars VS 2, You could even run a 4 car team but only the top 3 car’s points would go towards the team championship. All four drivers could however count their individual points towards the individual driver’s championship. 22.4.1 states clearly (“share the cost†Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 As the team rule will continue as written, I think there have been several additional questiones asked throughout this thread, that should be clarified prior to the season. Somebody hit me with a 2x4. I need to let go, but I can't. Since no changes have been made to the rules, I'm wondering why can an individual operate both in a team and independently? It seems pretty simple, you either don't have the resources to campain your own car by your self or you do, per the "intent". How or why should you be able to do both? So, if this rule can and will be used other than intended, why not fix it now, instead of waiting. The rules make no distinction between a team and an individual, which are in fact very diffenerent, except to say that you can operate as either at any event, as long as you declare prior to the race. None of this belongs in an individual year end points race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 I'm wondering why can an individual operate both in a team and independently? It seems pretty simple, you either don't have the resources to campain your own car by your self or you do, per the "intent". How or why should you be able to do both? So, if you have two cars at the track, two drivers, and the team car is declared as running with one of the drivers, you think the individual shouldn't be allowed on the track? Why not let him run for individual points? The rules make no distinction between a team and an individual, which are in fact very diffenerent, except to say that you can operate as either at any event, as long as you declare prior to the race. None of this belongs in an individual year end points race. Everyone has their own opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardC Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 I'm wondering why can an individual operate both in a team and independently? It seems pretty simple, you either don't have the resources to campain your own car by your self or you do, per the "intent". How or why should you be able to do both? So, if you have two cars at the track, two drivers, and the team car is declared as running with one of the drivers, you think the individual shouldn't be allowed on the track? Why not let him run for individual points? The rules make no distinction between a team and an individual, which are in fact very diffenerent, except to say that you can operate as either at any event, as long as you declare prior to the race. None of this belongs in an individual year end points race. Everyone has their own opinion. Chris, If the guy is part of a team and the team selects one driver to be in the race why should the second driver be in the race when he is already collecting points as part of the team. I think that leaves a huge opportuntiy for the second guy to drive simply to take potential points away from other competitors and hence giving an advantage to the team he is part of. Hell if this team rule is allowed every interpretation under the sun then we all might aswell pair up and run as teams aswell as individually. I think it takes away from the racing but as you said we're all allowed an opinion. Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Chris, If the guy is part of a team and the team selects one driver to be in the race why should the second driver be in the race when he is already collecting points as part of the team. I think that leaves a huge opportuntiy for the second guy to drive simply to take potential points away from other competitors and hence giving an advantage to the team he is part of. Not if you beat him. So, what your saying is 2 cars and 2 drivers are both faster than the competition? Good for them! Earn the points baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 I'm wondering why can an individual operate both in a team and independently? It seems pretty simple, you either don't have the resources to campain your own car by your self or you do, per the "intent". How or why should you be able to do both? So, if you have two cars at the track, two drivers, and the team car is declared as running with one of the drivers, you think the individual shouldn't be allowed on the track? Why not let him run for individual points? The rules make no distinction between a team and an individual, which are in fact very diffenerent, except to say that you can operate as either at any event, as long as you declare prior to the race. None of this belongs in an individual year end points race. Everyone has their own opinion. You bring up a very good point. This is just my opinion, and I'm anticipating that others would follow along and voice theirs, as well. Because, I do appreciate the opportunity to be heard. Ultimately others will make the policy, but it is good to at least have the chance to speak up. So to answer your question: So, if you have two cars at the track, two drivers, and the team car is declared as running with one of the drivers, you think the individual shouldn't be allowed on the track? Why not let him run for individual points? I'm fine with them being on the track, but why should they be awarded points? The non-team drivers points will have an effect on the entire points race. The intent of a team is to allow two guys to get together and combine resourses, in order for them to be able to race, who otherwise would not be able to race by themselves. How did they end up with two cars, ready to race? Because they have the funds and capability to do so, which is not the intent of allowing teams. Let them both race, and be scored like the rest of the group, individually. How are cross over events scored for a team that has team members that race in more than one region? Do they get to pick a driver, car and which region they get scored in? It offers all kind of flexibility that one individual operating alone does not have. Team members shouldn't be allowed to flip flop. The rules say you can only be on one team, but then makes a provision for driving seperately. What's the difference? There are several other scenario's to take advantage of, so why wait until they are exploited? Because they will, MO Aug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizlbits Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 The only point I will agree on is that there is more sense of accomplishment if you win it on your own, without a teammate. Sharing the championship may be a bit more hollow for some, but not for others. We are all doing this for fun correct? I don't remember cashing a lot of checks after the last couple championships. My wife will remind me of writing a lot of them however...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 One last thought, then I'm done.... well maybe, or is that the plug I hear getting pulled The agreement could be, "quit your crying and beat who ever shows up with a legal car". To that I say, pony up like the rest of us knuckle heads who spent untold hours and dollars to race, and don't have to hide behind a team to get the job done. Or go race in a cheaper spec class, or stay in HPDE if finaces or time won't allow you to race by yourself. Those aren't very nice comments, but the other 99% of us make it happen. So, the whole quit whining arguement doesn't really apply. Why does there need to be exceptions made for teams, because they can't or don't want to do it alone? I can't understand making consessions to allow for teams, and then allowing them to have any type of advantage over the rest. It should be the other way around. There are many obvious, and some not so obvious advantages to racing a team under the current rules. Keep it as fair as possible for everyone. The whole point of nearly every race class is to have rules to keep the playing field fairly level. Why doesn't that apply in this case? If you want or need to be part of team, then be a team all season long, not just when it's convenient, and only one guy can get points. If guys can combine all their resourses and be able to choice the best car and driver between them, then they can't be in two regions. Theres more, but I need to get off of my soap box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Algozine Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 The only point I will agree on is that there is more sense of accomplishment if you win it on your own, without a teammate. Sharing the championship may be a bit more hollow for some, but not for others. We are all doing this for fun correct? I don't remember cashing a lot of checks after the last couple championships. My wife will remind me of writing a lot of them however...... Great point, but just because we aren't getting big dollars, or fame , that doesn't mean we shouldn't have an equal crack at the championship. Thats one of the few things that amatures and professionals do have in common. We get noticed by our peers. What does that year end championship mean? "I overcame many obsticles all year and came out on top". How does the whole team aspect figure in. "We combined our resources, cars, racing skills and beat the other guys". Like you said, it's doesn't seem to be the same accomblishment, and that's because it isn't. If your going to mix the two, the single guy better have an equal or better shot then the two guys combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian-groth Posted November 22, 2006 Author Share Posted November 22, 2006 Wow, all I wanted to do was explore options to keep from driving 14 hours to Mid Ohio, 12 hrs to Putnam, ect. Is it "fair" that I have to drive 14 hrs to MO and leave thursday and be back monday just to race a race when other AI racers don't? Since we need to keep this fair as Dave says, lets centralize all the races so we all drive equal distances? Dave, I can see a scenario (in my proposed case) where two team mates would show up at the same race. Lets say you and I teamed up, you race MO, Putnam, and Gingerman. I race Brainerd and MAM and Blackhawk, but maybe we both like Autobauhn and RA, so we both go. Because you and I are at those two particular races, doesn't take away from the overall reason we teamed up. I agree there are issues that need to be addressed, I had no intention of making this into what it has become. lol Happy Thanksgiving, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWL Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Folks- This is getting way overblown. The team rule in the CCR is what we will use and my post two pages back explains how it works. It's worked fine for years and I just can't see muddying it up with all the complications. We'll deal with interpretations when they come up and we'll be fine. Until then, if you want to run as a team, make sure to let your local Director know and then go have some fun. ...and now, wait for it, here comes the lock! -JWL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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