Members Shawn M. Posted December 12, 2006 Members Share Posted December 12, 2006 whats really funny is that my overall points didn't change 19 on the old system, TTF 19 on the new system, TTF The new system almost allows enough room to tweak a couple things to close the 1.7 sec gap I had behind 1st and 2nd place too.... Be glad you dont have a VW!! JOKE, JOKE, THATS A JOKE, DONT FREAK OUT UP IN HERE!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuperdave Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 No one expects an official to have every car's specs memorized. OEM tire width could easily be stored in a database for an official to look up if the OEM tire width is in question. It could be listed alongside curb weight in 6.3.2 of the rules. It doesn't even have to be on a computer. It could be printed out and stuffed in a back pocket. Or recorded in the competitor's vehicle's log book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
National Staff Greg G. Posted December 12, 2006 National Staff Share Posted December 12, 2006 Ok, here's the scoop on tire sizes. 1) Using the base class standard size is much more simple from the tech standpoint. It is also much more simple from a base-classing standpoint since we no longer have to look at what kind of crazy stuff the manufacturer did with every year of every car model known to man. You guys think that the manufacturers put tires on your cars that are the best for performance--guess again. They put the tires on that will make them the most profit, PERIOD. Now, in some cases, that means that they need to provide the most performance, depending on the crowd they are trying to sell to. But, in MOST cases, it means that they will put on the cheapest tire that will still allow the car to sell. Or it means that they put on a narrower tire to help with their gas milage requirements. Or, it means that they upgraded a model by increasing the power, but don't want to spend the money on changing the body for wider fenders, etc. That WS6 Firebird doesn't need OEM 275's any more than the '02 Formula that had almost as much power and OEM 245's. And, we sure as heck aren't going to let that car run with 295's for free! 2) We DID NOT take OEM tire size into account at all in assigning base classes this year. They are spurious and yo-yo from year to year within a given model, and often make it impossible to base class a car without overly assessing it (i.e. If a manufacturer raises the tire size by 10-20mm one year, does the car get assessed one asterix more, even though an asterix is worth 7 points?) Nobody would be very happy with the results of getting their car bumped one asterix because the OEM tire size went up by 10-20mm in 2007. 3) INSTEAD, we DID take OEM overall curb weight into account when assigning base classes. Those heavy cars are in LOWER BASE CLASSES than would be dictated by a straight wt/power ratio. If your particular car didn't move down, it is because it was classed too low previously for its wt/power ratio. All classing is now based on a more objective system that begins with wt/hp ratio (a table used for all cars), then adjusts for overall weight, then adjusts for AWD or FWD (RWD is the base standard), then adjusts for engine location, and lastly adjusts for improved suspension, aero, engineering, balance, chassis (that are well above the norm.) 4) So, those heavy cars ARE listed in lower base classes than they would have been. That is how they have been adjusted. In most cases that means that they dropped by one or two asterix levels. The opposite goes for the light cars. The fact that both the guys with heavy cars and the guys with light cars (posting here) think they are the ones getting "screwed" tells me that we got it right--meaning that things are equal for everyone--which is all that is important. We don't have to have the same cars or lap times as last year for a given class. We just need to have some parity between cars, and the biggest factors by far, other than driver ability, that make OEM cars go faster--namely Tires and Weight and Power. We then adjust for the next biggest factors, suspension and aerodynamics via mod points. Since almost all of our cars have modified suspensions, it is less important to assess it in base classing, unless there are special factors like double wishbone suspensions, etc. 5) If we base classed cars and included the OEM tire size as a factor, it wouldn't change a thing. All of those cars with the OEM 275's that are in C class would bump to C*. It would make no difference, except that there would be more difficulty in classing the engine swap/forced induction/aftermarket head cars, new cars entering competition, and new year models that could mess up an entire model group by overclassing the rest of the group. No matter how you slice it up, increased tire size was getting hit this year with points. Increasing tire size by 60 mm is worth at least 3-4 seconds a lap, which is what we generally see between the different classes (2-4 seconds). The way that we came up with the class level numbers was to take the average tire size of all the cars in a class, then add 10mm (actually a little more to make the numbers come out even). So, yes, some cars will need to take tire size points on their OEM tire sizes. Most won't. The tire width increase mod points correspond to the points necessary to bump a car up about one class with a 60mm increase in size. The first 10mm is only one point to help equalize those tire manufacturer size ratings that are spurious, and to capture the majority of OEM tires within the base classes tire listing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slink Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 hey i might not like all the new points i now have but i know everybody else got hit with points also in theory i am sure i will be against the same guys just in a higher class maybe that is why there is tts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaWorstPlaya Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Thanks for the explanation Greg, I for one am very excited about the rules and would love to see how they play out ... I think it would be wise for people to try and play in this ruleset and see how it plays out before complaining about it ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slink Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 you first have to play mr evo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveh Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Thanks for the explanation Greg. Any thoughts on the staggered sizes questions that we have posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaWorstPlaya Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 you first have to play mr evo In due time my friend ... I honestly think Greg and the Gang have a very good logical system in place. I'm looking forward to keeping my car in TTB ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
860TTC Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 the older system really seemed to favor low class cars with lots of parts versus working with a stock car + tires and maybe 1 mod. maybe the newer system will get some better parity between those 2 styles of car... I disagree - Look at the Nationals Winners. TTB, TTD, and TTE winners had very few modifications. TTA second and third place cars also had very few modifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I have the record, 30 points for tires. I dare anyone to beat that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FocusTed Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I have the record, 30 points for tires. I dare anyone to beat that! 30 points??? WOW. That's almost two classes. I always go by a point should be worth .125 seconds on a 2 1/2 mile track. If the formula is true, it should make you car 3.75 seconds faster. Do you think that is true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
860TTC Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I have the record, 30 points for tires. I dare anyone to beat that! That rule was not writen for you! It's hurting me too. Since I'm going to be in TTB - why can't I use the TTC tire size? That's my stock tire size! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slink Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 i thought my 20 points was bad. the way your going john we might end up in the same class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooldguy Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I'm, REALLY, looking forward to my '07 assesment of 29 points for the OEM tire size and Hoosiers so my ( in '06 - TTC '96 C4 'vette with 19 points ) current ride goes to TTA ( with the same setup from '06 ) by 8 points. I'm REALLY looking forward to pitting my 10 year old " stock " C4 against C5 Z06's on Hoosiers. But I guess that's makes these two cars = (?). Oh, I know - " it's the driver " . Looks like my '07 season is over before it starts..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loudes13 Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 time to buy something that fits the tire rule guys whinners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robispec Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 time to buy something that fits the tire rule guys whinners But it get's old buying a new car every year when they reshuffle the rule deck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooRoo Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 time to buy something that fits the tire rule guys whinners But it get's old buying a new car every year when they reshuffle the rule deck... I think the new rules seem well thought out and reasonable, even if they are a bit of a departure from before. My (pre-modded) car didn't class very well in the old system, and these aren't much better, but that doesn't surprise me since I am trying to fit the rules to the car instead of the other way around. However, you have pointed out the what I see as the major issue that I can see others being unhappy about. If there was an announced agreement to do major rules changes every 2-3 years, and minor changes on the off years it would make them far easier to absorb the effect the changes have. ($$$ and time) Without it, many people will have an issue spending alot of time or money on preparation that may be rendered worthless by the next revision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrc24x Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Sorry JG I have you beat........32 points for tires. and after looking at the rules a 42 point total increase vs last year. Time to play w/ the T1 boys in TTS / ST2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Graber Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Here's my "new car" breakdown. Hoosier +10 TTE stock size 225mm - rear tires on my ride 315's! = +20 TTS here I come. Good thing is I checked with Popp and he'll be in TTU. Remember, I am lazy so my preference is for all OH/IN participants to run in TTS, TTU or TTR. I will provide adult beverages for anyone running in those classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrc24x Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 "I will provide adult beverages for anyone running in those classes." by JG That is enough for me to make my decision!! TTS it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhakar Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 I know many of you TTA+ guys are really boned by this, but the rules make much more of the driving field more balanced. Last I checked TT was not limited to the top 3 classes. I was working on a TTC 2003 WRX under 2006 rules. I was pretty jammed up so my tire choice was critical. My 3100 pound car has 205/55-16 stock tires. I was literally down to the last point to keep my car in TTC with the suspension upgrades and what not. My choice for the minimum width tire I could compete with was 235 due to the weight of the car. That was after many track days with borrowed rubber in different sizes. 2007 rules take my base car of TTD and apply 235 rubber as the max width for my class. It means the choices made were not just pulled out of a hat. As for the complaints about rule changes cycling too fast, were there even any rules 2-3 years ago? Last I checked you are competing in a brand new event class so the rules will be up in the air. Don't get me wrong, I understand your pain. It is just not unexpected. It's why my car will be TTC for many years till the TTA and above rules settle down a bit more. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrc24x Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 JG, If I'm reading the rules correctly...I have some good news, and some bad news..........First the good...you do actually have bragging rights about taking the biggest tire penalty. Now the bad....it looks like your points would be +25 for 315's and +10 for v710/hoochers for a whopping +35. ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slink Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 hey matt are you in tts now? or will we get to be in tta together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrc24x Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Hi Slink, I could run TTA and have another 6 points to play with but I want to keep developing my car and TTS will let me do that. Plus I really like the rules set for S/U/R. I can add ~100 hp and lose 200lbs and be pretty competitive in TTS/ST2. The T1 cars will be fast but my car should be able to run 36's at M-O with a good driver. (that part is still up in the air) How about you?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slink Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 well i went from being max out in ttc with 39 points before friday to now having 64 point with out touching my car. tta for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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