9.5:1 rule

[Ryan F.]

You got it. John and I will get with the other AI leaders and discuss it.

[racercosmo]

This is common in most racing series. Compliance inspection is generally open to all competitors, and NASCAR even encourages others to view engine tear downs.

[onralz]

It sounds like not having a dyno at every event is based on cost. That is understandable. One of the problems of not being able to police it then is computer controls. If someone knows there isn't a dyno at the track, the chip that throws more fuel and takes out timing in order to take someone's stroked out beast down to appropriate Hp and TQ levels, can now be changed to the "max" chip or in some peoples case, just turn the switch without any concerns about reprocutions.

Don't worry, I'm not suggesting we all go to carbs.

If we aren't able to run a dyno at each event, what is the thought of having the computers sealed and tagged similar to a spec motor so they can't be taken out or modified? Switches shouldn't be allowed.

 

Just some thoughts that certainly aren't flawless. I doubt that NASA will ever be able to afford to have a dyno at each and every single event. It would be a good idea to have some rule imposed that kept everyone in line regardless of the fact that they shouldn't have to.

Mark

[gbrown8439]

I have no problem being spot checked. I do expect to be given the opportunity to make sure the dyno or scales at the track confirm the numbers that we see at our shop BEFORE being pulled off the track and checked. We run close to the numbers and any variance in measuring equipment can cause us problems.

Greg Brown

AI #7

[onralz]

I have no problem being spot checked. I do expect to be given the opportunity to make sure the dyno or scales at the track confirm the numbers that we see at our shop BEFORE being pulled off the track and checked. We run close to the numbers and any variance in measuring equipment can cause us problems.

Greg Brown

AI #7

 

That seems logical and fair. What we do in another series is have the scales available througout the day. Is this something that is feasible with AI?

[Guest]

I have no problem being spot checked. I do expect to be given the opportunity to make sure the dyno or scales at the track confirm the numbers that we see at our shop BEFORE being pulled off the track and checked. We run close to the numbers and any variance in measuring equipment can cause us problems.

Greg Brown

AI #7

 

That seems logical and fair. What we do in another series is have the scales available througout the day. Is this something that is feasible with AI?

 

When the scales are present they normally are available during the day. They were open all day on Sat. and most of sun. at BR. Scales at putnam were sporadic, and MO were open the entire weekend.

 

The only way to confirm that the 'official' equipment confirms your shop equipment is to get on them early in the day before quailfying. This exact situation cost Hoover a race last year or a year before at Summit Point.

[johnbasf]

From the NASA VA wesite:

 

DYNO At the track!

NASA-VA is pleased to announce that dyno service will be available at ALL NASA-VA events. Competition within the NASA classes has increased greatly and many have requested that a dyno service be available for tuning at the events. In addition many NASA classes have dyno certification requirements. Having consistent dyno service will allow NASA officials and series leaders to better insure adherence to the class rules. Examples of classes requiring dyno certification are American Iron and American Iron CMC, German Touring Sportscar Challenge (GTS), the Factory Five Challenge and the SE-R cup.

 

The dyno service that will be available at Carolina Motorpsorts Park on April 3-4 will be courtesy of Team One Promotions http://www.teamonepromotions.com

 

Team One will be at CMP throughout the weekend. Please visit their website and help to support those that help to support our NASA racers.

[mwilson7]

One of the problems of not being able to police it then is computer controls. If someone knows there isn't a dyno at the track, the chip that throws more fuel and takes out timing in order to take someone's stroked out beast down to appropriate Hp and TQ levels, can now be changed to the "max" chip or in some peoples case, just turn the switch without any concerns about reprocutions.

Don't worry, I'm not suggesting we all go to carbs.

If we aren't able to run a dyno at each event, what is the thought of having the computers sealed and tagged similar to a spec motor so they can't be taken out or modified? Switches shouldn't be allowed.

 

Mark

 

What is the difference between this and changing the jets on a carb or adjusting the timing?

 

Switches are prohibited according to the rules.

 

Dyno at the track is really the only true way.

 

Greg - The scales are usually available through out the day at the track in the tech line. If your close I would definitely suggest running over the scales to make sure your car is "calibrated" to the scales if you know what I mean. It's not the best way I agree but at least everyone would be in the same boat if the scales are off.

[tacovini]

John,

That's great that VA has a trackside dyno!!!

Years ago, we had one in NorCal CMC...wish we had one for AI & CMC now in Texas.

 

Couple questions...

1) Who gets dyno'd at the track? Top 3 finishers? Top 5 finishers? Anyone & Everyone?

 

2) Who pays for the dyno at the track? I assume it takes a fair number of $50 dyno pulls to make it worthwhile for the owner to lug the Dynojet to the track! I don't see why NASA would absorb that bill, so does that mean entry fees in VA are ~$50 more there?

 

Todd Covini

[onralz]

One of the problems of not being able to police it then is computer controls. If someone knows there isn't a dyno at the track, the chip that throws more fuel and takes out timing in order to take someone's stroked out beast down to appropriate Hp and TQ levels, can now be changed to the "max" chip or in some peoples case, just turn the switch without any concerns about reprocutions.

Don't worry, I'm not suggesting we all go to carbs.

If we aren't able to run a dyno at each event, what is the thought of having the computers sealed and tagged similar to a spec motor so they can't be taken out or modified? Switches shouldn't be allowed.

 

Mark

 

What is the difference between this and changing the jets on a carb or adjusting the timing?

 

Switches are prohibited according to the rules.

 

Dyno at the track is really the only true way.

 

Greg - The scales are usually available through out the day at the track in the tech line. If your close I would definitely suggest running over the scales to make sure your car is "calibrated" to the scales if you know what I mean. It's not the best way I agree but at least everyone would be in the same boat if the scales are off.

 

The difference between jets, timing and computer chips/wires is the ability to make significant changes on the cool down lap, or when the car is brought in to tech after the race.

 

I didn't realize that switches were illegal. Was this something that was changed in the 2004 rules? I saw some at VIR.

[mwilson7]

 

The difference between jets, timing and computer chips/wires is the ability to make significant changes on the cool down lap, or when the car is brought in to tech after the race.

 

I didn't realize that switches were illegal. Was this something that was changed in the 2004 rules? I saw some at VIR.

 

7.10.4 - It's been there for at least the last two years that I know of.

 

If you saw switches that do change the PCM program then they were illegal.

 

Mark

[Admiral]

I've got a copy of the Feb 2003 ver 3.2 rules, there is no 7.10.4 rule

 

Checked my copy of the Jan 2002 ver 2.3 rules, there isn't even a 7.10 section!

 

What legitimate purpose would a PCM switch server anyhow? I'm not that familiar with changing chips, making PCM changes, etc.

[Bryan Shugg]

What legitimate purpose would a PCM switch server anyhow? I'm not that familiar with changing chips, making PCM changes, etc.

 

Spark, Fuel, and Air. Changing any of those can greatly affect power. You could have a dyno friendly program and track friendly program, all controlled by the flip of a toggle switch.

[Admiral]

Ahh, I see now. Thanks Bryan. I'd only heard of the 'flip chips' which I heard you physically have to remove and flip over, but not the ability to have both programs in the computer and being able to change them via a toggle switch. I could see where this would be tough to keep straight.

[Jim P.]

they have reached a point where you can program 3-5 'versions' of how you want the engine to run, add a turbo/supercharger and you now add a whole new set of variables - even tune it as you race!

[onralz]

they have reached a point where you can program 3-5 'versions' of how you want the engine to run, add a turbo/supercharger and you now add a whole new set of variables - even tune it as you race!

 

Which is why I brought it up. Any thoughts on how to eliminate this as a potential problem?

[johnbasf]

John,

That's great that VA has a trackside dyno!!!

Years ago, we had one in NorCal CMC...wish we had one for AI & CMC now in Texas.

 

Couple questions...

1) Who gets dyno'd at the track? Top 3 finishers? Top 5 finishers? Anyone & Everyone?

 

2) Who pays for the dyno at the track? I assume it takes a fair number of $50 dyno pulls to make it worthwhile for the owner to lug the Dynojet to the track! I don't see why NASA would absorb that bill, so does that mean entry fees in VA are ~$50 more there?

 

Todd Covini

 

1) Normally top 3. If Steve Marcus wants you on the dyno you go.

 

2) NASA VA pays for the dyno.

[nasaracer32]

 

2) NASA VA pays for the dyno.

 

 

 

Congrats to the VA region and Cobetto for setting a standard that should be met by all regions by provoding a dyno for race groups. By taking a step like this, I think some of the issues being discussed here can be alleviated.

[Jim P.]

One of the ideas we are kicking around in the SE is a 'challenge dyno' option. It would work like this:

 

1) Challenger(s) can question a driver's HP/TQ and request that he/she get on the dyno & scales -

 

2a) if the Driver is legal then the Challenger(s) pay for the dyno pulls

 

2b) if the Driver is illegal then the Driver pays for the dyno pulls

 

2c) Driver has the option to switch to AIX!

 

Kind of a 'put up or shut up' rule...dyno pulls generally range from $65-$70 at the track.

 

What do you think?

[Eirewolf]

kind of cool!

[Adam Ginsberg]

Richard Pedersen ( NASA TX AI #91 ) had these stickers made for his car recently:

 

 

Very well done, IMO. Thoughts?

[Jim P.]

Awesome!!

[johnbasf]

Did anybody ever find out the weights of the cars from Beaver Run?

[Jeff F]

A few comments from a soon-to-be AI competitor who is in the middle of tweaking things in and figuring out how close to the rules to run.

 

The concern that I have is that the weight part of the equation is pretty clear cut, but the power & torque part isn't and it has an order of magnitue more effect. Consider this:

 

When it comes to the weight of the car:

1. I can easily and inexpensively measure this myself before the event.

2. When I get to the track I can check my weight BEFORE the race on the official scales, for free. The scales should be very consistent at the same event.

3. If my weight is off I can adjust it easily with ballast or fuel load

4. I can leave myself a fudge factor of, say, 20lbs which should be plenty to account for scale variation and fuel use, yet not have a major impact on the performance of the car

 

When it comes to the power and torque of the car:

1. I have to pay ~$50-100 to check this before the event. Once per season in expected, but If I want to continue to confirm it throughout the year it could get expensive

2. When I get to the track I have no way to check my measurements versus the "official" dyno, especially if it isn't on-site.

3. If I were able to check pre-race and my power is high, I can't always easily detune the car... and if I can I need the official dyno again to confirm it.

4. It's hard to account for a fudge factor in HP or TQ because a difference of 5HP/ft-lb (typical for a Dynojet) is a weight swing of almost 50lbs! To be safe, knowing that it isn't your "home" dyno I'd say you need to have a buffer of at least 8 HP/ft-lb, which is 76lbs-- then add on a 20lbs for scale variation and fuel use, and you're running almost 100lbs heavy, which WILL have an effect on performance.

 

Here is my proposal for enforcing the rule:

1. Mimumum weight for the race is based on the most recent offical dyno, which is either provided by the competitior or as a result of a check at the track.

 

2. Zero tolerance on minimum weight. The competitor knows the established minimum, has free access to the official scales at the track, and can add whatever fudge factor he needs to assure he is legal.

 

3. If cars are dyno checked at the track or transported off-site, there will be a reasonable variance allowed to the current official dyno #'s. This is an item to debate, but it could be either a fixed amout (say 5HP or ft-lb), or it could be at the discression of the race officials to decide if the results are consistent with what the competitor turned in. The idea here is to decide if the numbers the competitor was using was accurate to the best of his knowledge. If your peak HP is off by 3 at the same RPM then it was probably normal variation. If you're 15HP high and the peak is 800RPM later, then something is fishy.

 

Certainly this leaves it open to someone turning in a dyno sheet that is 5hp low knowing that he might get away with it, but knowing that the dyno could also have that much variance it's risky.

 

What do you guys think?

[V8cobra99]

I have been angonizing over getting my car as close as possible to the 9.5:1 ratio. Yet, I see in the Speed World GT and Touring races lead cars running fast with up to 250+ lbs added, winners penalty weight. I guess, my question comes down to if a car is at 10.5:1 ratio, it can still win??