quick35th Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I know that I my opinion probably does not matter on this subject but I'll represent the budget racer thats just out to have fun and enjoy the sport because that is the posision that I am in. My goal for this season was to complete HPDE 1-4 then move onto AI but now since I am being forced into buying a $695 or more H&N device I am going to have to make some changes for this season. Instead of coming over from SCCA to NASA I might just have to stick with the SCCA and get my competition license with them instead. Now I could see spending $300 or a little more but not close to $700 or more. Shane Glynn Motorsports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSCoupe Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 No reason why you can't still do HPDE 1-4... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekim952522000 Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I know that I my opinion probably does not matter on this subject but I'll represent the budget racer thats just out to have fun and enjoy the sport because that is the posision that I am in. My goal for this season was to complete HPDE 1-4 then move onto AI but now since I am being forced into buying a $695 or more H&N device I am going to have to make some changes for this season. Instead of coming over from SCCA to NASA I might just have to stick with the SCCA and get my competition license with them instead. Now I could see spending $300 or a little more but not close to $700 or more. Shane Glynn Motorsports You could always skip one weekend and buy a HANS device with the money from that weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quick35th Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 I guess I forgot to add my point to my last post. I think racers should have the choice to use a H&N restraint or not to use one. From what I have read the HANS and others limit your ability to turn your head left and right which personally would get on my nerves because I'd like to be able to see of there is a car beside me in a blind spot. If a racer choice to not us a H&N restraint cant he or she be forced to sign a waiver stating that they acknowlege the fact that they could be injured and would not be covered on NASA's insurance if involved in an accident where they have a head or neck injury. NASA could police such a waiver to make sure anyone no using a H&N restraint has signed a waiver. Shane Glynn Glynn Motorsports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCraven Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Shane, great idea (waiver) but from what I've read on this list - it doesn't sound like it is going to happen. The restraint on moving the head from side to side definitely sounds disconcerting but like everything else, mirrors and adjustments could be setup to reduce the blind spots. Driver education, training, car setup. New belts, passenger side belt, SFI 38.1, seat adjustment, new mirrors or adjustments etc. It's a lot to perhaps get used to perhaps, I'll check out what other people buy and decide and make my decision what I'm going to do in June. BTW, the head turning restriction would be a design restriction of the device you buy. If it has shock absorber type devices, then it should allow head turning but would dramatically slow rapid movements that occur during events that occur like ones at impact with walls or other cars. I do not know of any SFI 38.1 devices that are currently available at this time that use shock absorbers like the Isaac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce L. Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 the Leatt Brace has a wider range of side-to-side motion. Also, the Hans will have a sliding tether setup soon that will allow more motion. bruce Shane, great idea (waiver) but from what I've read on this list - it doesn't sound like it is going to happen. The restraint on moving the head from side to side definitely sounds disconcerting but like everything else, mirrors and adjustments could be setup to reduce the blind spots. Driver education, training, car setup. New belts, passenger side belt, SFI 38.1, seat adjustment, new mirrors or adjustments etc. It's a lot to perhaps get used to perhaps, I'll check out what other people buy and decide and make my decision what I'm going to do in June. BTW, the head turning restriction would be a design restriction of the device you buy. If it has shock absorber type devices, then it should allow head turning but would dramatically slow rapid movements that occur during events that occur like ones at impact with walls or other cars. I do not know of any SFI 38.1 devices that are currently available at this time that use shock absorbers like the Isaac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granracing Posted January 2, 2008 Share Posted January 2, 2008 Shane, I hear ya as do many others and it is a valid point. IF a H&N rule is to take effect, it sure would be nice to have a few inexpensive options available. I'm not just talking about the ISAAC link; there are others out there such as the one from G-Force. $300 is much easier to swallow than $800. Heck, a friend of mine used a Schroth (sp?) which is quite effective and inexpensive. I believe he said it cost less than $100 to make. Gregg, I know it's not as good as the units ISAAC or HANS sells, but it still does a good job. I understand where people come from when they say "skip one race weekend and you can get ----," but for many budget racers that really hurts. Some people only race four or five times a year. It's not like there's 20 races cut down to 19. [/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingDog Posted January 3, 2008 Share Posted January 3, 2008 You could always skip one weekend and buy a HANS device with the money from that weekend.He could always skip a weekend and go buy an Isaac... oh wait, then he still couldn't race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alberto_mg Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 So does HPDE 1 requires a H&N restraint? The CCR that I downloaded appears to state otherwise according to the 2008.6 revision yet some of the comments on here appear to state that H&N restraints are required. Clarification would be most appreciated. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
944-Spec#94 Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 So does HPDE 1 requires a H&N restraint? NO! H&N is only for RACE CARS in the RACE GROUP. No requirements (or limits) on HPDE1, 2, 3, 4 or TT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMan Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 but what about the school groups? HNR required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted January 7, 2008 Share Posted January 7, 2008 HPDE 1 does NOT need a H&N device. HPDE 2 does NOT need a H&N device. HPDE 3 does NOT need a H&N device. HPDE 4 does NOT need a H&N device. TT does NOT need a H&N device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMan Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 *sigh* Humor is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidney Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 To Quick35th, I have never noticed a problem, while racing, of not being able to move my head side to side using a HANS Device. In fact, video from before HANS use and after show no difference in head movement while racing. After a race, I pop my belts immediately before turning off of the pit road to the paddock so as to be able to see around the corner and watch for racers running late to grid or peds. I just don't buy the theory that a HANS device restricts a racers view on the track. Good luck, Sidney AI #64 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dog Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Racers, I do NOT think the negative discussion on this issue is warranted at all. Being able to turn you head? Learn to use your mirrors, add more mirrors, convex mirrors, etc. You can make it work. You will get used to it with a positive attitude and a little time. One of our 944 guys fractured his neck last weekend. He was not wearing a H&N system. ANYTHING is better than nothing even it it is not the "best" in someone's opinion. Racing is dangerous, always has been, less so now but still dangerous. We are all willing to spend money to go faster, have better tires, etc. Safety is more important than ANY single other item in my race budget. In addition to the H&N system, please consider pairing it with a full containment seat with a halo for the helmut and shoulder restraints to absorb the lateral stress in some crashes to protect your ribs. Two of our guys have broken ribs in the past several months because of their seats. A full containment seat from ButlerBuilt is less than $600 complete. Safety first, fast second, winning third. My thoughts. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodeoFlyer Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Racers, I do NOT think the negative discussion on this issue is warranted at all. Being able to turn you head? Learn to use your mirrors, add more mirrors, convex mirrors, etc. You can make it work. You will get used to it with a positive attitude and a little time. One of our 944 guys fractured his neck last weekend. He was not wearing a H&N system. ANYTHING is better than nothing even it it is not the "best" in someone's opinion. Racing is dangerous, always has been, less so now but still dangerous. We are all willing to spend money to go faster, have better tires, etc. Safety is more important than ANY single other item in my race budget. In addition to the H&N system, please consider pairing it with a full containment seat with a halo for the helmut and shoulder restraints to absorb the lateral stress in some crashes to protect your ribs. Two of our guys have broken ribs in the past several months because of their seats. A full containment seat from ButlerBuilt is less than $600 complete. Safety first, fast second, winning third. My thoughts. Jim sounds like the problem is you guys crashing too much. I'm sorry I couldn't resist. I've worn the original Hutchens and liked it. I don't know what the impact ratings/numbers are, but I would think that a rule that mandates the crash rating of the SFI spec is fine, but the single release issue is the problem. I like the comments about having to release cool suits, radios, etc. Considering the amount of sanctioning bodies requiring such devices, i'll be the bold one and say that HANS devices can be sold for much less than $700. The market is considerably larger than anyone could have predicted, and the consumer deserves to reap the benefit as well. I think those that have gotten the SFI rating, while several, are able to stick it to us on pricing because of it. You CAN put a price tag on safety - and they ARE. NASA alone just got another what - 1000 units sold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkeF Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 One of our 944 guys fractured his neck last weekend. He was not wearing a H&N system. ANYTHING is better than nothing even it it is not the "best" in someone's opinion. Frankly I think it's silly to say "the HANS is good enough, so just use it." Other devices are arguably better where it truly counts, hence why people are upset with the regulations as written. Sorry if I misconstrued your statement, but that's how I interpreted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Racing Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 I think racers should have the choice to use a H&N restraint or not to use one. What about helmets? Can we choose not to wear helmets? Firesuits? Gloves? From what I have read the HANS and others limit your ability to turn your head left and right which personally would get on my nerves because I'd like to be able to see of there is a car beside me in a blind spot. What you've "read" is garbage. It took me less than a weekend to get used to my HANS. They can make you feel a bit claustrophobic the first time you wear one, but the idea that one's view is limited while wearing it is mostly psychological. When you actually get out on the track, you realize that you don't really turn your head all that much while you drive and normally mounted side mirrors and a decent, convex rear view mirror gives you as much visibility as you need. BTW, if a car manages to get up beside you without you having a clue they are there, you weren't paying enough attention anyway and a HANS device is the least of your worries. Someone could see your post and go on to say that they "read" the HANS is limiting. I suggest you at least try one before condemning it and spreading this unhelpful rumour even wider. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbaker Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 ... but when you're running an organization that needs insurance, said insurance makes you do things. That's what we thought, and have thought for a very long time. But it turns out not to be the case. Since this thread began two important things have happened: 1) We talked to people in the business of insuring racing organizations and events. Guess what? Having safety gear possessing a specific label is not a factor in setting insurance rates. The most important factors are rooted in common sense, such as: -Has the group had injuries in the past? -Is the event well organized? -Are there safety provisions for spectators? -Are there emergency medical plans in place should there be an accident? Driver safety gear ranks very low, and when I asked the President of a carrier that specializes in motorsports events whether a specific certification was of any value they said "No". They were more concerned that it was good gear. Then I asked what they thought about requiring a specific certification that knowingly excluded better gear. After a long pause they replied, "That would be problematic." In the insurance business, "problematic" is code for "That might not be covered." 2) I spoke with Jerry Kunzman, NASA's Executive Director, who told me, in no uncertain terms, that no driver would be denied the use of an ISAAC system. This was after the below e-mail exchange: Gregg, This is incorrect. Please call me if you have any questions. Jerry Kunzman From: Gregg Baker [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 5:40 AM To: [email protected] Subject: SFI Jerry, It has come to our attention that NASA intends to mandate head and neck restraints next season and that it has excluded the best performing product available, the Isaac® system. Is this true? Regards, Gregg S. Baker, P.E. Isaac, LLC 301 East Pine Street, Suite 150 Orlando, FL 32801 Phone: 321/206-8177 Fax: 321/206-3145 Jerry is no dummy. If 500 drivers show up at a NASA event with 500 ISAAC systems, they are all racin'. Jerry said so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ker Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 does this mean nasa will change the ccr to allow my isaac device to meet the h&n requirement when i w2w race? or is it just i can wear it along with another h&n device that meets the current "design" standard of 38.1 (and possible negate any usefulness by either device). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbaker Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 does this mean nasa will change the ccr to allow my isaac device to meet the h&n requirement when i w2w race? or is it just i can wear it along with another h&n device that meets the current "design" standard of 38.1 (and possible negate any usefulness by either device). We have no idea how this will be implemented--and don't care, that's not our business--but it is clear that Jerry doesn't want to explain to a jury why he took someone's Isaac system away. The simple solution would be to require a particular performance standard, or require FIA, SFI and/or RSI certification. It's not a difficult fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ker Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 When I renewed my comp license for this year I did note with it that at this time I have no intention of racing with NASA unless my Isaac device qualifies for the h&n requirement. This could be great news for a great many of use who enjoy the NASA family racing group but do not plan on racing with NASA unless our Isaac's device are "approved" for use by NASA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_venturini Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 any updates to this new found info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgipson Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 No change to the SFI 38.1 requirement in the new version of the rules (2008.11) that is dated 3/30/08. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ker Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 No change to the SFI 38.1 requirement in the new version of the rules (2008.11) that is dated 3/30/08. there are many who are hopeful this will change before june Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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