Need Help with New rules for HPDE Harnesses and Seatbelts?

[geerookie]

The only thing I see missing from your setup is the roll over protection. I haven't seen a roll over in HPDE, but I have heard of one. I have seen several rollovers in race cars, including one that cracked the roll cage.

 

Without rollover protection, you become the roll bar should you car go wheels up. Your bolt upright positioning solidly locked in by your seat and belts becomes the vertical high point in the event of a roll over. You have the right idea, but one of the legs of the stool is missing (roll bar). Problem is, you want to drive it on the street. Have you ever thought of abandoning the C5 for HPDE and going with a dedicated track car? Spec Miatas are fun, safe and cheap (though not as sexy as a C5).

 

You bring up the most frustrating part of this whole equation! HPDE is supposed to be for learning and using your street car. Before I go and invest in a "Race Car" I would like to make sure I have what it takes to do this. I'm still figuring out if it's worth me making that kind of a financial commitment. Right now I'm just trying to be as safe as possible within the limits of a "street" car.

Yes it's extremely rare that a car roll over in an HPDE event and even less likely that a C5 would roll over. If it were to roll over the hoop over the drivers head would provide adequate protection from the situation you described.

Safety is about minimizing the risks within a given set of parameters, not eliminating all risk. That is not possible! I'm just trying to increase the odds of my survival and minimize injury should something happen, not protect myself from every possible situation.

Like I said before, it would be nice if there was some data/chart that showed each safety system in each car and levels of protection. Kind of like what we have with motors and horsepower vs. dependability vs. cost.

My guess as to why we can't find or don't have something like this is because of the liability issues involved. Unfortunatley, this leaves everyone to fend for themselves and I have discovered there is a lot of bad and misleading information out there, even among the "experts"

[geerookie]

Safety is an ever changing target and always about minimizing risk within a given set of parameters. There's another thread talking about full face or open face helmets. One person stated a full face was better because he heard of someone who had a deer run in front of his car on the track and the guy didn't have a full face helmet which (in his opinion) would have protected the person and kept him from having to have multiple reconstructive surgeries.

In taht same thread someone brings up airbags and helmets. One person states they had an airbag inflate while wearing a full face and didn't get any face or neck injuries. This doesn't mean it's safe to wear a full face and have your airbags turned on! Most tests show to the contrary!

The question is, which provides a better chance of survival during an on track incedent, full face to protect you from possible flying debris or an open face and air bags turned on. Well it depends on the severity of the incident. If it's hitting the wall or something like it with anything that resembles the front of the car it would be better to have an open face and airbags on. Minimize risk and possible injury. I'll wear eye protection for the "smaller risk"

[Chim-Chim]

Thanks for the input, all. I completely understand the concept of seats/harnesses/rollover protection working as a system. My plan would be a roll bar first, then seats and 5-point harnesses. There is no way I would use a 4-point harness.

 

If I use the stock seats and stock seatbelts, but add a roll bar, it seems like I gain a bit more protection while I save for/decide on what seats to get.

 

As for street use, that would be a heck of a wreck to cause contact with a 4-point roll bar. I just don't see that as a major risk... (no back seat passengers)

[sperkins]

I didn't use sliders because they would seriously compromise the integrity of the "system"

 

Are you talking about aftermarket sliders? I used a C5 manual seat track in my C5Z with a Kirkey seat. It (track) is DOT approved and crash tested, but was this the wrong choice?

[laze1]

It is recommended that you use a "seat back brace" when using an aluminum seat....it would connect the back of the seat to the roll cage or harness bar....it really takes the movement out of the seat...

 

something like this:

 

 

 

I didn't use sliders because they would seriously compromise the integrity of the "system"

 

Are you talking about aftermarket sliders? I used a C5 manual seat track in my C5Z with a Kirkey seat. It (track) is DOT approved and crash tested, but was this the wrong choice?

[TurboShortBus]

As for street use, that would be a heck of a wreck to cause contact with a 4-point roll bar. I just don't see that as a major risk... (no back seat passengers)

 

Don't underestimate how far your body moves around in a crash! Depending on the strength of the seat back, you could force it to recline (Mustangs are good for this) during a rear impact, allowing your head to come pretty close to the roll bar. If there is any sideways movement involved, then you'll smack the back of your head against the main hoop upright, for sure.

 

If you have seen real-speed crash videos, then you see that the body moves a lot quicker than you might think. If there's a steel roll bar nearby, then it won't be terribly different than somebody lining up behind you with a steel baseball bat and aiming for the cheap seats with your head. This is why unpadded roll bars are a very bad idea on the street.

 

Mark

[geerookie]

I didn't use sliders because they would seriously compromise the integrity of the "system"

 

Are you talking about aftermarket sliders? I used a C5 manual seat track in my C5Z with a Kirkey seat. It (track) is DOT approved and crash tested, but was this the wrong choice?

 

According to the manufactures and any of the race teams I talked to, it didn't matter. Factory or after-market would compromise the integrity of the system. Some people said certain aftermarket ones would be OK but that sounded a little to hesitant to me and no one could provide any test data that confirmed they would be OK. It wasn't worth the risk to me. I spent $3k on my saftey system and wasn't going to let a single part "possibly" compromise the integrity. The convienece of the sliders would be nice but like I said, not worth the risk to me.

[TurboShortBus]

Here's how I see it (and I might be wearing my tard goggles):

 

In a frontal impact, sliders aren't absolutely critical, because the seat is not restraining you; the harnesses are. The seat track is not necessarily a structural member in this situation. If anything, your body is restraining the seat from going forward, but the forces acting on the seat in this situation (only the seat's weight/mass is acting on the sliders) are much lower than in a rear impact situation (where the driver's weight/mass is acting on the sliders, as well as the seat's weight/mass, and the average driver weighs a lot more than a seat).

 

In a rear impact, it could be argued that the slider track mechanism could fail, and allow the seat to move backwards and cause slack in the harnesses (because the seat is now trying to stop the force of your body moving backwards). I know that Mustang seat backs have the structural integrity of a lawn chair. However, since properly installed harnesses should attach to the roll bar hoop crossbar, the seat back should also be rigidly attached to the roll bar hoop crossbar, and this becomes a moot point because the seat cannot move. And, at that point, why waste the money on a sliding track if the seat cannot move?

 

In a side impact, it would take a pretty severe impact to tear the sliders apart to the point that the seat would move around in the car enough to slacken the harnesses. Your problems are probably bigger at that point.

 

There's always the argument that, in some sort of violent incident, the driver's foot could accidentally kick the slider lever and allow the seat to move, which would slacken the harnesses. It could happen.

 

Now, if you're using stock-style 3-point seat belts that attach to the seat frame (like my 2004 Mustang GT does), then the slider vs non-slider argument becomes important, since the slider is now a structural member.

 

If it's that big of an issue, then I suggest that you use a race seat, fixed seat bracket, race harnesses, and roll bar combination for the track, and just swap out the race seat for the original seat and slider when you're just tooling around town.

 

Or, to get a decent fit for the race seat, use a slider, drive it around until you get a comfortable seating position, then weld the slider tracks in place and rigidly attach the seat back to the roll bar hoop crossbar.

 

Mark

[RACER-X]

 

7. The seat, seat holes, and attachments to the seat are not permissible “harness

guides” for compliance with the angle requirement. Only specific harness guide

bars, or parts of the chassis or the cage are allowed to be used for this purpose.

The guide bar, if used, should not present a sharp edge to the belt. It should

provide as much area of support as possible to distribute the load.

 

Sean,

 

Do I understand the above statement in the rules to mean that I cannot mount my lap & sub straps to the seat mounting points, or seatmount, even if there are pre-drilled & tapped holes in the seat mount? I am sing Corbeau Forza seats, and mounts, with double locking sliders. The harness mounting points are in the seat mount & not the slider, and are secured with grade 8 hardware.

 

The shoulder straps are attached to an autopower bolt in 4-point roll bar (attached to the harness bar section) which is attached with grade 8 bolts & fender washers.

 

Sorry for the hijack, but worried now that VIR is next weekend!

 

Fritz

 

 

I'm in the same position as most of you. Running TT and seeing $hit happen makes you think more about safety. I installed a 4pt roll bar and racing seat, seat-back brace and 6pt Schroth harness and a Hans device. I did a lot of research as well as pour over the CCR. If your going 9/10ths and 10/10ths its time to think safety. Anybody installing racing seats needs to read the CCR 15.6.22 Seat-Back Support. IF your seat does not conform to FIA standards(Corbeau seats do not, none of them do) a seat back brace needs to be installed. If your FIA seat is more than 5 years old, it too needs a seat-back brace or needs to be replaced with a new FIA certified seat.

 

People running HPDE 1,2,3 The 3pt stock belt, air bags and safety system is probably more than adequate. Relax, learn the track and your car. If you think you need more safety fine, install it but don't do just half, do it right and do it all. Installing a 4,5 or 6pt harness without a seat or Hans is asking for big trouble.

See ya on the track.

[sleeperlove]

I have read through all of this and am trying to make some decisions as to what to do for the passenger side.

 

I am currently having a 4 point roll bar welded in that will meet the CCR requirements, I am going to install a FIA certified seat on the drivers side but I am pretty sure I can't afford to do the same for the passenger side at this time.

My initial plan was to run the stock passenger seat with 6 point harness (I will cut a hole in the seat for sub belts) But am I reading correctly that this won't be ok even with proper roll over protection? Or is it ok, just not the absolute best option?

 

The last thing I want to do is put any passengers in danger by skimping on safety equipment, although I don't have them all that often so if I have to I will pound the bank account a little more into submission but if the stock seat will be safe I would like to leave it for now until I can save some more to get a good FIA seat not a bargain basement seat just for harness guide holes.

[TurboShortBus]

If you're looking to keep costs down, then just get a non-FIA seat for the passenger side and attach the back of it to the hoop crossbar with a bracket (I/O Port has them, I think). That seat doesn't necessarily need to be easily adjustable, as opposed to the driver's seat.

 

Mark

[RACER-X]

You could skimp on the seats if you get a seat back brace. I think I would rather ride in a stock seat with air bags than to just have a harness unless your car is on the Schroth's list for harneses. BTW I have a 4pt roll bar, seat, brace, 6pt harnes and hans and stock seat and belts for the passenger.

[NOT///MPOWER]

Even tho the CCR does not specify it, I'm sure your instructor would appreciate a "like seat".

 

11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses

The seatbelts should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts

and they must be the factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other

than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects* except for the

expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that

they are in at least very good condition. The use of a lap belt without any shoulder

restraint is not permitted. Passenger seatbelts must meet the same minimum

requirements per the CCR as the driver seatbelts if being used by a passenger. Notepassenger

equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side.

[TurboShortBus]

Even tho the CCR does not specify it, I'm sure your instructor would appreciate a "like seat".

 

While they might appreciate it, a "like seat" is not required. None of my instructors ever turned me down because I had a Kirkey seat on the driver's side and a stock Mustang seat on the passenger's side. They might have given me a hard time about it ("Oh, so I get the crappy seat, huh?"), but that was the extent of it.

 

Mark

[markseven]

I recieved an email from NASA SoCal stating that attendance is low in DE 2, 3 and 4 for this weekend at Buttonwillow. Is this due to the summer heat or fuel costs? If NASA does institute an "all or nothing" policy in regard to harnesses and a "like seat" for the passenger, it will further lessen attendance. I can relate to the OP's position: HPDE's should accomodate daily drivers with 4-point harnesses.

 

Why not use the 4-point and the stock seatbelt if lack of anti-sub is the primary concern?

[dbright007]

Notepassenger

equipment need not match the installed equipment on the driver’s side.[/b]

 

Depends on the instructor. One at Barber a week and a half ago refused to ride with a student who had a different setup.

And I know several instructors who are not big fans of 4pt belts and stock seats. (In pinch they will use the 4pt and the stock belt as was suggested)

[NOT///MPOWER]

Even tho the CCR does not specify it, I'm sure your instructor would appreciate a "like seat".

 

While they might appreciate it, a "like seat" is not required. None of my instructors ever turned me down because I had a Kirkey seat on the driver's side and a stock Mustang seat on the passenger's side. They might have given me a hard time about it ("Oh, so I get the crappy seat, huh?"), but that was the extent of it.

 

Mark

 

Exactly my point, but better spoken.

[NOT///MPOWER]

Anybody installing racing seats needs to read the CCR 15.6.22 Seat-Back Support. IF your seat does not conform to FIA standards(Corbeau seats do not, none of them do) a seat back brace needs to be installed.

 

I thought a seat back brace could not be installed on a tube frame seat like the Corbeau? Am I mistaken? If anyone has more info on this, please let me know.

[TurboShortBus]

And I know several instructors who are not big fans of 4pt belts and stock seats. (In pinch they will use the 4pt and the stock belt as was suggested)

 

If I was an instructor, I'd use the 4 point belt, the stock 3 point belt, and I'd take off my own leather belt and strap myself to the seat! lol

 

Mark

[caelric]

i haven't seen a G35 with a harness mounted per the CCR - harnesses i have seen are either for show, or for auto-x, but do not follow any kind of regulation. i'm just tired of shifting in my seats while i drive.

 

Not related to the harness discussion, but one way on a G35 (or any car with power seats) to lock yourself in with the stock seatbelts is to find your driving postion, move the seat back about 3 inches, pull the stock belt tight across your waist, and then yank the shoulder strap so it locks, and then use the power seat to move the seat back forward into your driving position. The constant tension will keep the seat belt "locked" so it can't move.

 

It ain't a 5 pt harness, but it does keep you from sliding around on those leather seats in the G35. Especially one like mine, with a turbo kit, big brakes, and R-Comps. I'm sure I manage to pull a good bit of lateral G's, and I manage to stay locked in, no sliding.

[NorrFam]

sliding on leather seats is greatly abated by a $3.99 trip to WalMart and getting a roll of the rubbery shelf liner in the kitchen department. Reusable, doesnt let your butt wiggle and cheap to boot.

[dbright007]

A 30$ CG-Lock really does work too. Helps me alot.

[Driver]

I'm both glad and a bit frustrated that I saw this thread. I'd be less frustrated if I'd seen it earlier.

 

At my last HPDE (3, M-O 2004) I ran a car with a 6pt cage, OEM seats, and a 4pt harness. The set up of the car was geared toward safety, I personally don't think a harness looks cool.

-To prevent/retard Submarining, I always made sure the lap belts were tight, event slightly uncomfortable.

-With the cross bar of the cage, I located it such that the seat back rested against it, ensuring that it would never fold back under it (rear impact).

-Harnesses were mounted using OEM mount points. The back-seat lap belt mounting bolts were used for the shoulders, and the front seat lap belt bolts were used for the front lap belts. The rear harnesses drop down at about a 30deg angle, though they pass over the seat and crossbar before doing so.

 

The OEM seat has adjustable side bolsters, limiting my movement. I wanted harnesses because I had zero-faith in my OEM belt system in the event of a M-O back straight crash. The OEM shoulder harness was on a sliding track that affixed to the door, which doesn't count as chassis in anyone’s book.

 

Point being this: Issuing the blanket statement that "OEM belts and seats are safer than a 4 point harness and OEM seats" is not accurate. The standards that new cars are held to today are not what they were in the early 90s. Further more, visual inspection is not sufficient when it comes to clearing old OEM hardware. The belts and buckles may appear fine, but the mounting points are hidden by trim, and that chain is only as strong as it's weakest link.

 

But, "rules is rules", and they seem fairly clear in this respect: I need to get the Kirkey installed. The car passed way-back-when, but the text says it doesn't now. If I'm to have the car out on July 11, I need to get the mount designed, built and it installed tomorrow (my schedule is limited).

 

The 8 pages of this thread show how broad an area of discussion this is. I humbly submit that HPDE car safety be the final call of the Chief inspector (it is anyways), and that HPDE cars need not comply with 15.8 provided they hold up to the Chiefs scrutiny.

 

P.S. Anyone who says that a harness doesn't make driving easier has been driving Sports Cars too long. Do a lapping day in this seat, and see how you feel. The following morning, I had pulled/sore muscles that I didn't know existed, just from keeping myself in front of the steering wheel. Anything that helps a student keep their focus on the act of driving is a good thing.

[TurboShortBus]

Care needs to taken when using certain types of OEM seats in combination with 4- or 5-point harnesses, specifically in the shoulder harness areas. One of my cars is a 1994 Mustang GT, which had OEM seats combined with a 5-point harness and 6-point roll bar for several years. The shoulder belts wrapped around the hoop crossbar, but could easily slide from side to side when not latched. The OEM seat headrest was mounted on a single post in the center. Just bringing the shoulder harnesses forward, over the seat back but under the headrest (with 1 belt on each side of the single headrest post) meant that, in an incident with sideways forces, I could conceivably slide out from under at least 1 of the shoulder harnesses. Not good, so I did the next best thing: I crossed the shoulder harnesses behind the single headrest post (which was 2" wide x 1/4" thick aluminum). Now, it's impossible to slide a belt off of my shoulder without severing both my head and the headrest post. So, this wasn't really a problem in my Mustang with a little creativity (although it's not 100% proper). At least the photo link attached in the previous post shows a 2-post headrest, so both belts can pass between the posts without issue, and still remain reasonably contained.

 

Now, other cars have bigger problems with this. I have seen some Corvettes with OEM seats and shoulder harnesses, but the headrests are integral with the seat backs, and there are no openings in the seat backs to slide the shoulder harnesses through. These guys usually just bring the belts around the narrower upper part of the seat back, and down over their shoulders. But, if you look at the shoulder harnesses when a person is strapped into the car, the harnesses angle excessively outward as they go up the chest and over the shoulders...very bad news, since it appears very easy to slide out from under one or both shoulder harnesses with sideways forces.

 

I rode shotgun at a Chin HPDE event a few weeks ago at Sebring with a driver in a Lotus Exige with the shoulder harnesses set up just like the Corvette description above. Needless to say, I wasn't terribly comfortable with the setup, and I tightened all belts as much as humanly possible. Fortunately, the driver wasn't driving at 10/10ths, so I wasn't completely in fear for my life. lol

 

This is just an example of how 4- or 5-point harnesses aren't necessarily the best option with an OEM seat, but I wouldn't say that the OEM 3-point belt is a preferred alternative, either. A proper aftermarket seat is, however.

 

Mark

[Neutered Sputniks]

sliding on leather seats is greatly abated by a $3.99 trip to WalMart and getting a roll of the rubbery shelf liner in the kitchen department. Reusable, doesnt let your butt wiggle and cheap to boot.

I wish that would work. But, see, I weigh about 145. I have a 28" waist. There is no way that rubbery shelf liner is going to help me stay in my stock seat...

 

Work for most, not for all of us.

 

 

My first HPDE event, I was sliding all over the place in the car and was more dangerous on the track b/c of it - less control.

My 2nd HPDE event, I was in a RECARO SPG with Takata 6pt and was able to concentrate on turning the car - not turning the car and staying in my seat.

 

In a daily driver, a 6pt is arguably safer than the stock 3pt system. I wish I could find the data (looked, but had trouble finding numbers) on how many daily driving accidents involve rollovers (must be a low percentage, even lower when you take highway accidents out of the equation). So in the overwhelming percentage of accidents, my 6pt and SPG with the stock hoops is safer than the OEM seatbelt and seat. Granted, I'm also short enough that the stock roll hoops are adequate protection - not great, but adequate - for a rollover.

 

Personally, I'd rather be held into the seat in an accident than floating halfway around the cabin of the vehicle. Manufacturers don't use 3pt + airbag b/c it's safer than 6pt + race seat - they use 3pt + airbag b/c it's more convenient for the daily driver who doesn't care about safety and just wants to get from Point A to Point B without spending 5 mins buckling in.

 

For what it's worth, due to Kale's accident, I refuse to track my car (even HPDE) until I have a HANS device. And I have plans to have the roll hoops reworked (about 1" taller) to increase my rollover protection.