Putnam Park recap from TTC... pics and vid...

[Markus]

It amazes me when someone comes out of nowhere, breaks a track record and is like, "I dunno anything about the car.. I just drive it. So and so classed it for me." Uh huh..

 

 

In some ways I can understand people not knowing what parts are exactly in the car they purchased. However, when one is buying a (heavily) modified vehicle, one usually has a complete list of mods done to the car. USUALLY but I guess not always can apply to some people. I would find it highly unlikely.

 

Ultimately the responsibility to properly class their car falls solely on the owner/driver.

 

While that certainly happens, that's not totally the case here. This guy seems like he is pretty knowlegable about his car. He had a cardomain page with a whole bunch of stuff listed that he removed prior to doing this event to try to keep the car in TTC. It seems like he more or less got tripped up because he underestimated how many points his aftermarket front bumper would cost (canards, air inlets, etc) as well as went by purchase price of shocks vs retail price.

 

So - did the guy make some honest mistakes or was he mispresenting things? I'd like to think it was an honest mistake. I'd like to see him try to get the car legally in TTC and go back to Putnam. Hopefully he'd still do well.

 

- Mark

[L98Terror]

It amazes me when someone comes out of nowhere, breaks a track record and is like, "I dunno anything about the car.. I just drive it. So and so classed it for me." Uh huh..

 

 

In some ways I can understand people not knowing what parts are exactly in the car they purchased. However, when one is buying a (heavily) modified vehicle, one usually has a complete list of mods done to the car. USUALLY but I guess not always can apply to some people. I would find it highly unlikely.

 

Ultimately the responsibility to properly class their car falls solely on the owner/driver.

 

 

FYI I bought my car with a less than complete list of mods, hell the guy couldn't even tell me what brake pads it had on it. I'm still finding new stuff but I'm in ST2/TTS so it doesn't really matter

[phoenixR34]

I don't think anyone was cheating.. I never believed that was the case at all. Sometimes those bumper points come up by surprise, that's all.

 

Speaking of bumper points, anyone care to share why that bumper should take +1 for air inlet? I'm not seeing it.

 

Bumper in question..

 

Stock S2000

 

The only difference I see is how on the stock bumper, the "inlets" on either side of the radiator opening are blocked, whereas they are open on the TTC car. I forgot exactly how it is on the S2000, but I don't believe either of those have any effect/path to the airbox, however.

 

This bumper would be a +1 for air duct

[kbrew8991]

make sure you're looking at the right year S2k, the bumpers changed between the early 2.0L cars and the later 2.2L cars

[phoenixR34]

Same deal for the later model year S2000s.. (ie. fake brake duct inlets).

 

[Fair]

Aaron, it says on the Vorshlag website that the 5100's are inverted as well. So, you should look at that as well as is another +1 for inverted shocks.

Vorshlag/AST 5100 shock kit for Honda S2000

 

Greg - our website can be a bit confusing, with all of the various shock models and options (http://www.vorshlag.com/ast_models.php). Not all Vorshlag/AST 5100s are inverted - on most shock applications (including S2000) they are run in the standard configuration. We only invert 5000 series shocks on custom applications (when requested) or when the upper mount goes into a "blind" hole (Corvette C5/C6 front, VW Mark V GTI rear, etc), which makes for no access to the Rebound knob.

 

BTW, inverted shocks cost little to no more to make than non-inverted, nor do they provide any measureable performance increase. Struts are a different story (these require separate bodies, inserts, etc - and the thicker shafts on struts DO make a big difference in geometry/deflection). In my humble opinion as a suspension designer, the +1 makes sense only for inverted struts. But I'm not a rules maker, just putting in my $.02.

 

VW Mark V GTI rear shock is inverted because upper mount is inaccessible from the top

 

Porsche 996 C2 shock kit. Inverted front struts but rear shocks are non-inverted

 

AST 5200 remote reservoirs mounted on the rear subframe, Honda S2000 CR. Not inverted

 

This is a TTC car, and its pretty damn quick. Watch the in-car videos to see why his times are so fast.... he's driving the hell outta that thing. Not too shabby for his first NASA TT event. Nicely done, Aaron.

 

If those rear wing endplates are +2 points, then everyone's rear wing gets +2...

 

In case people are complaining that our Vorshlag/AST 5100s are over the $2400 price cap, today we lowered the prices on S2000 shocks by $100 to $2399, to help with points for NASA. We did the same for our 5100 series C5/C6 shocks, RX8 shocks, and a few other shock-only kits. We were still under the price cap of "shocks+springs" ($3000) but felt this pricing change made more sense. Aaron actually has our older design AST 4100 single adjustable shocks, which uses less expensive steel bodies instead of aluminum. The 5100s are aluminum bodied and modular/upgradeable to doubles or triples.

 

Not trying to sound like a commercial, just trying to get the facts straight.

 

Cheers,

[Aardwolf]

So legal cheating can be accomplished by having the vendor be one dollar under the price for a mod and taking more points for it. Got it!

[Fair]

So legal cheating can be accomplished by having the vendor be one dollar under the price for a mod and taking more points for it. Got it!

What??? Look, we didn't even know there was a dollar limit in TT for points penalties until 2 days ago. We looked and saw that we were $100 higher than the limit on several sets of AST 5100 shocks, so we looked at our numbers and decided to lower the price on all "shock only" 5100 kits to $2399... as-in, we're taking a hit to help out anyone in NASA who wants to buy our shocks. How is that cheating again??? We make shocks for damn near anything.

 

If you had bothered to read my posts this doesn't relate to Aaron at all, of course. He had purchased his steel-bodied AST 4100 series shocks back in 2008 and they were always under the $2400 retail limit. I don't know how we can be more clear on that. Some of you just don't care to discuss facts but would rather throw around rampant allegations of cheating based clearly on mis-information and bad assumptions.

 

edit...awaiting clarification/ruling....edit

Edited May 29, 2009 by Guest

[RACER-X]

Some of you just don't care to discuss facts but would rather throw around rampant allegations of cheating based clearly on mis-information and bad assumptions.

 

I'd like to discuss facts.

1) How are the 4100 series different from the 5100's?? Besides steel/alunimun

housing. Please elaborate.

2) Where is the listing for the 4100 for the Honda S2000? Sorry, I can't find it.

Is there a link you could post?

Thanks.

[phoenixR34]

And the receipt is now missing. This thread is epic!

[RACER-X]

And the receipt is now missing. This thread is epic!

 

 

Sorry my computer went down during the editing of this post. The receipt was removed at the request of Vorschlag Motorsports.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Guest

[hancheyb]

Some of you just don't care to discuss facts but would rather throw around rampant allegations of cheating based clearly on mis-information and bad assumptions.

 

I'd like to discuss facts.

1) How are the 4100 series different from the 5100's?? Besides steel/alunimun

housing. Please elaborate.

2) Where is the listing for the 4100 for the Honda S2000? Sorry, I can't find it.

Is there a link you could post?

Thanks.

 

I think our documentation says it pretty clearly as Terry outlined. Sometimes 4000 series shocks are radically different from 5000 as Terry showed with some of the struts. Sometimes it is not that much different. A welded steel bodied, non inverted 4000 series is still not a 5000 series shock. Aircraft-grade aluminum, closer tolerances on the cylinder, o-rings, etc cause them to cost more.

 

Anyone can order 4000 series if you like Racer-X. After all, you did email us pretending to want a set. Matt did suggest 5000 series because we're not going to stock (and promote) the 7+ versions of S2000 shocks we are capable of making and selling. We just can't afford to do that. Again, 4000 shocks are available when requested.

 

And there is no history here for us producing S2000 shocks so any assumptions we're changing pricing and model configurations just to help one driver is really a bunch Internet B.S. We've done exactly 3 sets of S2000 shocks all for different purposes. This was the same 3 years ago when we started importing BMW shocks. We built many configurations and still do "mild to wild" 4000 and 5000 series shocks for those cars on request. Again, nothing we sell is "one off" and not available for other competitors.

 

We're not a large company like KW, Koni, or Bilstein. Ask Ohlins, JRZ, or Moton for every single configuration they've done. You won't find all of theirs either. Therefore, you're just going to have to believe the fact that we're a company with an outstanding customer service record and a track record for being honest and truthful in everything we do. There aren't any conspiracy theories going on here.

 

We asked everyone to remove the pricing information because the discount we gave in that sales receipt reflected a strategic discount to someone (Aaron) who had to suffer through the R&D process with us. If anyone would like to know what the typical MSRP for AST 4100s you can view it here. Whether any dealer sells it to you at that cost is up to the dealer.

 

http://www.ast-usa.com/ast_4100.php (upper right hand corner)

 

Row 489 of the spreadsheet should answer any pricing questions.

 

Brian Hanchey

(co-owner of Vorshlag)

[32EVOIX]

This is deja vu all over again. Are you people kidding me with this stuff? Anyone that has a little bit of knowledge can see from Aaron’s video that the kid can drive. From what I read, he probably was over on points. However, I refer to the same point in the rules as I did in the past.

 

3 Intent

 

The intent of the rules and safety considerations will be the overriding factors in making such decisions, as opposed to a constrained interpretation of the rules based on phraseology or verbiage.

 

I don’t know Aaron but I don’t believe for a moment that his intent was to cheat. If anything he simply made a mistake in the interpretation of the rules. Furthermore, I don’t believe for a moment that he broke that record by 3 sec because he had an after market nose. Or anything else for that matter.

 

Lastly, who the f#%k takes the time to call and pretend they are going to buy shocks to police a competitor. GET A F^$^%EN LIFE. Nasa has people that do that at the local level and the national level.

 

In addition, it is always the same posters, the Nasa self appointed police, I would venture a guess and say that most have never broken a record and probably run at the rear of their class. So in their little pin heads when a person comes along and shatters the record because he can actually drive, well he must be cheating.

 

THESE ACCUSATIONS ARE ABSOLUTELY ABSURD!

 

Great job Aaron, if you ever make your way down to Florida there is another top gun S2000 driver down here my buddy Rene, I would love to see you guys go head to head.

[vpnwiz]

How are the 4100 series different from the 5100's?? Besides steel/aluminum housing. Please elaborate.

I think our documentation says it pretty clearly as Terry outlined. Sometimes 4000 series shocks are radically different from 5000 as Terry showed with some of the struts. Sometimes it is not that much different.

OK, so this brings up a fair question - if you can't define how a 4000 series is different from a 5000 series shock, how do we assign points to that via the TT point structure? Put another way - if you can stuff the guts of a 5000 in a 4000 body (so what if it's a welded metal housing) why would it not be assessed the same way as a 5000.

 

This is an area that hasn't really been addressed yet with TT. Aaron seems to have factory support with shocks. It would be prudent for him to gather all the information about the custom shocks he is running and have that assessed by the national TT director for appropriate points before the next competition.

 

We built many configurations and still do "mild to wild" 4000 and 5000 series shocks for those cars on request. Again, nothing we sell is "one off" and not available for other competitors. ... Therefore, you're just going to have to believe the fact that we're a company with an outstanding customer service record and a track record for being honest and truthful in everything we do. There aren't any conspiracy theories going on here.

I agree, there's no conspiracy. I think lowering your price to keep it under a TT points threshold is a great business move. Just as long as the points assessed by the people who run them are fair. If you are looking for another driver to do some R&D for you I know a Miata driver who won a national championship in TT last year that would be interested

Edited May 30, 2009 by Guest

[32EVOIX]

I knew my comments would drag you from under your rock. But I am not going to let you drag me in your s#%t hole again, so let’s stay on point. There is place for the rules of course, but as I have previously said, interpretation is complicated. I personally believe that intent is the most important thing. There are countless of threads in this forum of people arguing over interpretation of a said rule. If interpretation was, clear than there would be no arguing. I truly believe that I could go through any car and find at least one item that is not compliant or at least to my interpretation and I think this holds true for anyone. This is precisely why we have people like Greg whom make the rules period. Interpretation of the rules and enforcement of the rules are NASA’s responsibility not some kangaroo court on this forum. You are such a stickler for the rules but seem to ignore the intent portion of the rules, why is that? To me that is as clear as day.

 

And as far as your personal comments, it is not even worth addressing, you and I will have our day on the track don’t worry yourself over it.

[vpnwiz]

There is place for the rules of course, but as I have previously said, interpretation is complicated. If interpretation was clear than there would be no arguing.

Dude, there is always arguing over rules. NASCAR, IRL, Grand Am, F1 all do it, and NASA is no different. Anything that hasn't been hashed out in TT yet has a simple solution - just ask Greg. It's official. Legal. And free.

 

Interpretation of the rules and enforcement of the rules are NASA’s responsibility not some kangaroo court on this forum.

Greg already weighed in (a few times) on this thread, so I would hardly call it a kangaroo court. And TT has always been self-policed by the competitors... especially regionally.

 

I personally believe that intent is the most important thing. You are such a stickler for the rules but seem to ignore the intent portion of the rules, why is that? To me that is as clear as day.

Because the intent clause is not there to save people who class their car wrong or compete with an illegal part. It's there to catch people who find a loophole or gray area and exploit it. The intent rule also has nothing to do with this thread. But you make it sound like it's OK to compete in the wrong class because of the intent clause. What's the matter with you??

 

This entire thread has brought up some interesting questions about how custom shocks are assessed points that may need some clarification in the rules, already resulted in a clarification on rear aero, and reminded everyone about how important it is to get help classing your car for TT.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Guest

[Greg G.]

Well, we did ok for three years with the current shock/damper rules. The 5000 series shocks would have been +12 points under the 2006 rules. Our intent is still that shocks like the 5000 series belong in either the +7 or +10 category depending on which options/level is chosen. The fact that Vorshlag is admittedly sacrificing to lower the price to get the shock price under our +3 point rules is something that was always a potential issue for us to deal with. I certainly don't blame them for approaching their pricing in this fashion for their business, but at the same time, NASA will need to do something to keep the point assessment fair, and not "force" all of our drivers to go get these "+3 point" AST shocks to stay competitive. They are clearly a cut above our typical +3 shocks based on the descriptions that I have read. As well, we will also need to look at this issue of prototype, custom, and/or "one-off" shocks. So, expect some type of technical bulletin over the next few weeks.

 

As far as TT protests are concerned, they are handled off-line, per the rules, by actual NASA Officials. While much of what is posted on the Forums is interesting, and often can lead to valuable information that otherwise would not be readily available (as well as information that is incorrect or misleading), protests are not handled via forum posts. If anyone has questions about how protests and penalties are handled, please refer to the two sections of the TT Rules that are specific to these issues.

 

For Patrick and Jimmy--keep it civil guys. I can see the "intent" wording going both ways. It can be used to help prevent bad faith type protests, and it can be used to penalize those that like to play games with wording to try to gain an unfair advantage. However, the bottom line is that if you are a top driver, setting track records, that NASA and I expect your car to be 100% legal at all times. Self-policing is a major part of keeping things legal in both TT and PT. That is why we allow competitors to look at each others Car Classification Forms. Anyone with a 100% legal car, that is not trying to "bend" any rule wording, should not have a problem with this. While NASA Officials will make the final decisions as to whether something is legal or not, it certainly helps us to know where to focus our inspections and compliance efforts via self-policing.

[RACER-X]

Some of you just don't care to discuss facts but would rather throw around rampant allegations of cheating based clearly on mis-information and bad assumptions.

I never called anyone a cheater. All I wanted were facts.

 

I'd like to discuss facts.

1) How are the 4100 series different from the 5100's?? Besides steel/alunimun

housing. Please elaborate.

2) Where is the listing for the 4100 for the Honda S2000? Sorry, I can't find it.

Is there a link you could post?

Thanks.

 

I think our documentation says it pretty clearly as Terry outlined. Sometimes 4000 series shocks are radically different from 5000 as Terry showed with some of the struts. Sometimes it is not that much different. A welded steel bodied, non inverted 4000 series is still not a 5000 series shock. Aircraft-grade aluminum, closer tolerances on the cylinder, o-rings, etc cause them to cost more.

So what your saying is an aluminum tube, tighter tolerances and better o-rings is the difference? You almost sound like your telling me your 4100's are a peice of junk.

 

Anyone can order 4000 series if you like Racer-X. After all, you did email us pretending to want a set. Matt did suggest 5000 series because we're not going to stock (and promote) the 7+ versions of S2000 shocks we are capable of making and selling. We just can't afford to do that. Again, 4000 shocks are available when requested.

I did inquire about pricing. The response I received said they were in fact prototype 5100 shocks with steel bodies.

 

And there is no history here for us producing S2000 shocks so any assumptions we're changing pricing and model configurations just to help one driver is really a bunch Internet B.S.

Thats not what you said in an earlier post, and I quote "In case people are complaining that our Vorshlag/AST 5100s are over the $2400 price cap, today we lowered the prices on S2000 shocks by $100 to $2399, to help with points for NASA. "

 

We've done exactly 3 sets of S2000 shocks all for different purposes. This was the same 3 years ago when we started importing BMW shocks. We built many configurations and still do "mild to wild" 4000 and 5000 series shocks for those cars on request. Again, nothing we sell is "one off" and not available for other competitors.

 

3 sets all for different purposes, sounds like one offs to me. If you made me a set for my GTO they would be custom or one-offs. Maybe I don't understand?

 

We're not a large company like KW, Koni, or Bilstein. Ask Ohlins, JRZ, or Moton for every single configuration they've done. You won't find all of theirs either. Therefore, you're just going to have to believe the fact that we're a company with an outstanding customer service record and a track record for being honest and truthful in everything we do. There aren't any conspiracy theories going on here.

I'm sorry but the only listing that I can find for the S2000 is the 5100s.

 

We asked everyone to remove the pricing information because the discount we gave in that sales receipt reflected a strategic discount to someone (Aaron) who had to suffer through the R&D process with us. If anyone would like to know what the typical MSRP for AST 4100s you can view it here. Whether any dealer sells it to you at that cost is up to the dealer.

http://www.ast-usa.com/ast_4100.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (upper right hand corner)

 

Row 489 of the spreadsheet should answer any pricing questions.

 

Brian Hanchey

(co-owner of Vorshlag)

 

So what your saying is that your cutting the price so low that no other dealer will match it? I couldn't get the spreadsheet to open.

 

I lay it on the line here. I believe that the shocks on Aaron's car are indeed 5100 internals in a 4100 body. I asked for an explination for the differences between the two but o-rings and tolerances was all I got. Maybe that is all there is and I'm reading more into it than I should? Anybody have a cut-away shock and a big crayon? Care to elaborate more on the differences?

[kbrew8991]

This thread is stupid!

 

fixed

[Fair]

So what your saying is that your cutting the price so low that no other dealer will match it? I couldn't get the spreadsheet to open.

Racer-X - you are clearly not reading what we write. That's not what Brian is saying at all. You can't even open an excel file, it seems? I don't know how to make that step easier.

 

And you did contact us posing as someone trying to buy the same S2000 shocks as Aaron, disingenuously.

 

 

As shown above, AST has also makes shocks for your GTO (first as the Holden Monaro). They built everything for Whiteline back when they sold shocks. We don't have these listed on our website, either, but they are available.

 

I lay it on the line here. I believe that the shocks on Aaron's car are indeed 5100 internals in a 4100 body. I asked for an explination for the differences between the two but o-rings and tolerances was all I got. Maybe that is all there is and I'm reading more into it than I should? Anybody have a cut-away shock and a big crayon? Care to elaborate more on the differences?

I'll lay it on the line here - you're pretty much right. And neither 4100 or 5100 is over the price cap for +3 shocks. Yes, you are reading more into it than you should.

 

You guys think there's some sort of magic in the shocks on Aaron's Honda? Greg seems equally as confused. I wish we could claim all of his track performance were in the shocks, ha!

 

"Buy AST shocks and beat your class track record by 3 seconds, guaranteed!"

 

...except you still have to drive REALLY well and have a lot of other things in order. hehehehe....

 

These aren't some one-off uber shock with unobtanium internals - these 4100s are the same single adjustable (rebound only) monotubes we build for hundreds of cars. The 5100 is mainly different externally - aluminum modular construction instead of a welded steel body, some slight internal differences, but that's about it (the strut versions of 5000 series shocks are inverted and pretty different from the 4000 series variant, however). These are NOT cheap twin tube shocks, though. The performance difference between twin tubes and monotubes is significant.

 

The 5000 series shocks can be upgraded from singles to doubles to triples, whereas the steel 4000 series shocks cannot be upgraded, but can be built originally as singles, doubles and triples at the factory. The 5000 shocks are a bit lighter, too. Again - Aaron has steel 4100s, not 5100s. Both the 4100 and 5100 single adjustables for the S2000 (and numerous other cars) are under the $2400 price cap for "+3 shocks". We aren't doing this for one set of shocks - we'll do it at retail price for all shock-only kits, without remote reservoirs. Strut-shock combos cost more to make and 5100s aren't under the price cap, however 4100 strut/shock kits are under that cap (most are currently $1910/set - as the Euro swings compared to the dollar that does change, of course).

 

AST's are Dutch built, quality monotube adjustable shocks akin to Ohlins, Penske or Moton Competition shocks; they just aren't outrageously overpriced for a monotube. AST has made S2000 shocks for a while and makes shocks for more cars than we'll ever see in the USA. Aaron happened to buy the first set we imported here in the USA for an S2000 and he had to deal with all sorts of issues which I wouldn't wish on anyone. Spring lengths & rates we sent him were all wrong and had to be tweaked, etc. We never even revalved them (which we do for a lot of testers if the base valving rate is off for the springs chosen). That's not "factory support" that's being a "guinea pig". He took a risk on a shock company he had never heard of and it paid off with a good set of shocks, after a bit of waiting for the right spring lengths.

 

 

But were the AST shocks alone why he put 3+ seconds on the TTC track record, and soundly beat TTB as well? I wish we could claim that, but of course that's ridiculous. Face it guys - Aaron flat out outdrove a bunch of folks. Again: watch the video. He was definitely hustling that car around Putnam, and not coasting around like the typical in-car videos we usually see. This was his first NASA TT event and he never even made a shock adjustment all weekend. Just wait until he actually does some testing and gets everything really dialed in. His times were supposedly "too fast" for what he had on the car (it is "just a Honda" after all) so the first reaction from some of his competitors and the "keyboard cowboys" online was "cheater!". Apparently the bruised egos squealed loudly enough and it nabbed him a WEAK protest and subsequent DSQ. +7 points from that bumper??? Are you guys kidding me? That is really stretching it.

 

I hope he doesn't take this "welcome to NASA TT!" protest too seriously and comes back to more events, and continues to obliterate the class. Hey Aaron - put the stock bumper back on and that'll leave plenty of points for real race tires (Hoosiers). I'll be surprised if it doesn't net you +2 sec improvement.

[Markus]

Face it guys - Aaron flat out outdrove a bunch of folks. Again: watch the video. He was definitely hustling that car around Putnam, and not coasting around like the typical in-car videos we usually see. This was his first NASA TT event and he never even made a shock adjustment all weekend. Just wait until he actually does some testing and gets everything really dialed in. His times were supposedly "too fast" for what he had on the car (it is "just a Honda" after all) so the first reaction from some of his competitors and the "keyboard cowboys" online was "cheater!". Apparently the bruised egos squealed loudly enough and it nabbed him a WEAK protest and subsequent DSQ. +7 points from that bumper??? Are you guys kidding me? That is really stretching it.

 

First off, it's not a WEAK protest - it's the RULES. Like them or not.

 

If you go back to my previous post I tried to be fair to Aaron. It does look like he drove awesome and it's a shame the car was misclassed. As you even mention if he would have ran in TTB he still would have won right?

 

This thread has caused some other drivers to review points assessments for their front bumpers/fascias, which is a good thing. As with any mod in PT/TT - it is up to the driver to weigh how many points the mod is and if the anticipated benefit is worth it for their car.

 

NASA TT/PT is a developing group with limited resources for regional compliance at events. This means other drivers have taken a strong role in enforcement - for better and worse. Maybe some are a little aggressive in their tactics or don't come across as polite as possible with a keyboard but that's all we've had to count on so far. Yes Aaron drove very well, but when he beat a track record by a respected competitor by 3sec then posted in multiple forums bragging about it - he had to expect some scrutiny.

 

Last, as a TT competitor I'm not sure how I feel about vendors cutting pricing to get around the rules. On one hand it means the TT/PT program is attracting vendor attention and consideration which is good. On the other hand it does come across as a little shady. It will be interesting to see the technical bulletin on this.

 

- Mark

[vpnwiz]

+1

What Mark said.

 

Respect the rules... don't act like a "poor us" victim because you were classed wrong!

[Fair]

Respect the rules... don't act like a "poor us" victim because you were classed wrong!

Again, this isn't Aaron, just an outside observer that happens to also race in TT. Aaron isn't the one "whining", and isn't even going to appeal this protest - even though I and many others think he should.

 

My problem is that he did ask his competitors to look over the car at the event, and more than one competitor went over his classing sheet and added up the points for "TTC". It wasn't until the keyboard cowboys picked apart his car here on this forum, and used every possible interpretation of the rules (slotted ball joints are "free" in one rule but not in another; then finding a total of 7 points in that bumper!) to add up points differently, that it was deemed TTB - weeks after the event. Then a protest was lodged, then he was DSQ'd.

 

Do I have that right - do the protester or director who ruled on this DSQ want to chime in? I'll take their continued silence as an affirmation of the facts as stated.

 

THAT is what is WEAK, in my humble view. Retro-active competitor classing protests aren't allowed in any other organization I've ever raced with, and is troubling to me that it is allowed in NASA. Apparently there is no limit to how long you can wait to protest a competitor after an event in NASA TT/PT (for now). You could protest someone from.... last year? 2 years ago? As far back as you like. That seems like a process begging for a serious update. Some other NASA officials have told me as much offline, who have read what I've posted in this very thread. Other racing series also have policies of their classes "self policing" (by way of protests), even with respect to classing, but in all groups I know of outside of NASA a classing/legality protest has to be filed before the end of the event.

 

This is all I have to say on this topic. I've more than explained the vanilla 4100 single adjustable shocks on Aaron's car (which were NEVER priced more than the $2400 price cap, which some of you continue to openly ignore). As a fairly new series, TT has some rules and processes that will "mature" over time, with less emphasis on "internet-post-policing" and more on clear and concise rules wording. It will get better over time, so stuff like this doesn't need to happen. If there was a tech inspector that helped with clear and definitive classing at the event (and from the hundreds of questions that get asked about classing on this forum, we know that "mod points" based classing is a lot more difficult than the more common category-specific sets of "modification rules"), then Aaron could have run TTB or made the changes necessary on site to stay in TTC. Instead he gets this snipe attack after the fact, and a retro-active DSQ.

 

Cheers,

[Markus]

My problem is that he did ask his competitors to look over the car at the event, and more than one competitor went over his classing sheet and added up the points for "TTC". It wasn't until the keyboard cowboys picked apart his car here on this forum, and used every possible interpretation of the rules (slotted ball joints are "free" in one rule but not in another; then finding a total of 7 points in that bumper!) to add up points differently, that it was deemed TTB - weeks after the event. Then a protest was lodged, then he was DSQ'd.

 

OK. You make a valid point about the DQ after the event. I would also be interested in hearing an official NASA opinion on this.

 

But - please understand - that's not what you first said. And even above you are complaining about the +7 for the bumper. The TT/PT rules have matured alot already with alot of the effort going toward making field inspections/classifications easier. So this means things like charging a set amount of points for canards vs charging different points based on their size or percieved effectiveness. You might not like all the rules, you might not agree with all the rules (and I certainly don't - see my past posts about ECU chipping) but I understand why and where they are coming from.

 

In regard to your shock pricing - honestly, it's very difficult to tell with the different model #'s, configurations and pricing that have been thrown around. Maybe list price isn't the way to go with this, maybe shocks need to be classed by brand like tires or something, I dunno. Anyway, just mentioning that because you obviously know your shocks inside and out but it is very difficult for outsiders to jump in and try to class this type of thing.

 

By the way I notice Aaron has been silent for awhile, I really do hope he shows up at the July MidOhio event with this car in TTB or TTC. Will be interesting to see what he can do there.

 

- Mark

[Bryancohnracing]

I was the Race Director for the Putnam event and asked my TT Directors to make me the "substitute" to hear the protest. Jerry and Geff are new TT Directors for 2009 and have no experience with these kind of things. Unfortunately I have far to much...as both a driver and official.

 

I will not address the other issues in public.

 

NASA Midwest/Great Lakes has a new Regional Rule regarding TT protest time frame and to whom they must be submitted.

http://www.nasagreatlakes.com/pages/rules_regs.asp

Look down the page to Time Trial. Same rule for both regions.

This supersedes the TTR in my regions.