t-hill race

[mikeski38]

I think the H2 weights and really close. The B16 may need a little weight as it is dead even in the straights, but has a significant advantage under braking and turns. With that said, we are so close right now it would almost be a shame to mess it up. Another problem with comparing our data from norcal is our engine prep level up here is not consistent. We have a few junk yard dogs, some fresh, and some fully built to the rules motors, and when we are talking in terms of a 1/2 car to a full car pull in the straights, I think we are splitting hairs.

 

Over beers we have been talking about testing some kind of rewards weight system. This would be a cool tool to help dial in the min weights. Maybe for next season we'll give it a try as a gentlemans agreement in norcal. I'll volunteer to keep track of everyone's rewards weights. We only have a 8-10 cars, shouldn't be too big of a hassel.

[slammed_93_hatch]

I'm not a big fan of rewards weight, it serves its purpose in 'pro racing' IE making the show better. But they just handy-cap the faster guys.

 

For me, at least, a big reason i go faster is because i chase the fast guys. If they were always being slowed down, then I would never improve. Or other guys might not either, they wouldn't have a reason to chase after the fast guys because the fast guys are going slower..

 

That's my take on it anyways.

 

 

I really like the balance H2 has, even with all of the differences in prep as Mike noted, i really think any one of the motors can win.

 

I am happy with the H2 rules as they are, i think there might be a little tweaking needed but I like the engine packages.

 

Now if there was an allowances for Aftermarket rear LCA, and we got rid of the random weight penalties for items that can not be quantified i think H2 would be great...

[jmeris]

Exactly, each engine package should have their strength in different aspect. Obviously the lightest car should be slowest in the straight and vice versa.

 

That's why b20 should be heavier as they are the fastest in the straight in H1 currently. Same with b16 in h2 IMO.

 

 

i agree the b20v needs to be slightly heavier because its a rocket on the straights.

 

First of all, the B20vtec already got a weight increase from 2250lbs. to 2300lbs. (2years ago albeit) So another weight increase isn't needed.

 

Helms and my B20 do slightly dyno higher than most of the K's in H1 (except Bernardo), BUT the disadvantage is the Bseries trans vs. the Kseries 6spd. trans. Having the closer, shorter gears in the 6spd (vs. the 5spd) keeps the engine in the powerband more effectively with less hp. With that said, justifying the B20 to be slightly lighter to the Ks.

 

Lastly, since when is straight-a-way speed the determining factor for setting minimum weights? Slow to medium speed turns play a role too, which the K20 and especially the K24 have more torque than the B20vtec. As a result, having more pull out of the turns.

 

 

I think the H2 weights and really close. The B16 may need a little weight as it is dead even in the straights, but has a significant advantage under braking and turns. With that said, we are so close right now it would almost be a shame to mess it up. Another problem with comparing our data from norcal is our engine prep level up here is not consistent. We have a few junk yard dogs, some fresh, and some fully built to the rules motors, and when we are talking in terms of a 1/2 car to a full car pull in the straights, I think we are splitting hairs.

 

H2 class weights are ok. Not all the engines have run yet so its hard to compare. Up here in NorCal we've only got one 1 H22A, 1 B16A, one B18C GSR, two B18C ITR, two K20A3 (only 1 has ran) and one B18B (dans hasnt really run enough)

 

Im down for a weight adjustment, as long as everyone is willing to change back if its wrong.

 

Let's just leave the weights alone. There is NO one engine in either class that clearly blows anyone away...of course Graham hasn't run his H1 car at all this year.

 

 

See you in Utah

jmeris

[Andrie]

Helms and my B20 do slightly dyno higher than most of the K's in H1 (except Bernardo), BUT the disadvantage is the Bseries trans vs. the Kseries 6spd. trans. Having the closer, shorter gears in the 6spd (vs. the 5spd) keeps the engine in the powerband more effectively with less hp. With that said, justifying the B20 to be slightly lighter to the Ks.

 

Bernardo's engine package is no longer legal, so it should not even be in discussion.

 

Gear argument is not valid since you can mix match gears in H1. Effectively in K or B series, there are only 4 gears to use anyway. You can build similar ratio on the 4 gear in use with either trans.

 

Lastly, since when is straight-a-way speed the determining factor for setting minimum weights? Slow to medium speed turns play a role too, which the K20 and especially the K24 have more torque than the B20vtec. As a result, having more pull out of the turns.

In turning, it is almost always a lighter car will be faster. Coming out of the turn is still a straightaway acceleration. No difference.

 

I watched the H2 race for the first time last race on Saturday. It was really evident that Liam's B16 was fastest in the straight by quite a margin. Considering that is a junkyard motor, it is pretty scary to compare with the built motor. Those are just my observation. What important is if all of you happy the way they are, is all that matter.

[jmeris]

Bernardo's engine package is no longer legal, so it should not even be in discussion.

 

Gear argument is not valid since you can mix match gears in H1. Effectively in K or B series, there are only 4 gears to use anyway. You can build similar ratio on the 4 gear in use with either trans.

 

In turning, it is almost always a lighter car will be faster. Coming out of the turn is still a straightaway acceleration. No difference.

 

I watched the H2 race for the first time last race on Saturday. It was really evident that Liam's B16 was fastest in the straight by quite a margin. Considering that is a junkyard motor, it is pretty scary to compare with the built motor. Those are just my observation. What important is if all of you happy the way they are, is all that matter.

 

Gearing is a valid argument. How can it not be? As far as I know, gears cannot be mixed and matched in H1. As for the B series gears, it doesn't matter because the Bseries Type R trans has the best gear ratios out of ALL Bseries trannies, unless aftermarket close ratio gears are allowed (which I'm almost certain they are not). The gear set 2,3,4,5 in the Bseries trans is indeed inferior vs. the 2,3,4,5 gear set in the K Series Type S or Type R trans.

Once the bseries gets into 5th gear, the car no longer pulls as hard or hardly at all. It's basically a cruiser gear just like 6th gear in the K's. Once the Kseries gets into 5th gear, the acceleration is MUCH more noticeable than the Bseries counterpart. Furthermore, the Kseries still has the option of using 6th gear if running a shorter final drive (5.072).

 

At the back straight in Mid-Ohio, once I get into 5th gear just past the flagstand, my acceleration rate greatly decreases, even with a 10-12whp advantage, whereas the K powered cars are still pulling strong.

 

 

In turning, it is almost always a lighter car will be faster. Coming out of the turn is still a straightaway acceleration. No difference.

 

 

Actually coming out of a turn, from apex to exit, torque plays a much larger role than straightline acceleration. Especially a 2.4liter vs. a 1979cc B20vtec. Because of the way the vtec is designed with the Bseries straighline acceleration becomes more evident in the higher rpm range (6800rpm>greater) not exiting a turn. The Bseries engines doesn't have the benefit of having VTC like the Kseries engines do. While the engine is running, the Bseries has FIXED cam timing on the intake side (anywhere from +1degree to +10 degrees-whichever way you tune it). While the Kseries uses the VTC it provides the best cam timing (anywhere for plus (+) or (-) minus 25 degrees or even up to plus or minus 45 degrees for some engines) at any given rpm at anytime, using its power more effectively throughout its rpm range.

 

 

So again, straightline acceleration isn't the only factor to determine min. weight. there are other variables that are involved too...

 

Why do you care anyway? Shouldn't you be worried about professionally racing in US Touring Car? I don't see you dropping your 2 cents in PT or spec focus.

[slammed_93_hatch]

gear ratios are open in H1. Meaning you can swap them around all you want.

 

Hell the H-series guys can even swap to a B-series trans.

 

look into the 92-93 Integra GSR 5th gear. better then the rest.

 

With the lower reving b20, i'd look into doing some calculations and seeing what you could run and seeing about exeleration, gearing ect.

 

Shortest doesn't always equal best.

 

I know a few H2 guys have the b16a gear box (same as the later ITR) and it isn't working out in there favor.

 

 

And if my memory serves me right you nor kevin ever had a problem accelerating past any one in H1, least the K series

[clock]

...Actually coming out of a turn, from apex to exit, torque plays a much larger role than straightline acceleration...

From now on, I guess we will have to refer to torque as "curved accelaration" .

[Andrie]

Meris,

 

Acceleration is acceleration. There is no difference if it is out of a corner or not.

 

We just need to measure acceleration from dead stop and rolling from a predetermined speed. Out of a corner is still acceleration, but from a predetermined speed. Usually this is where the case bigger displacement is better as they can generate power much lower. However, this can be equalized to a certain point by a good gearing.

[Andrie]

Helms and my B20 do slightly dyno higher than most of the K's in H1 (except Bernardo), BUT the disadvantage is the Bseries trans vs. the Kseries 6spd. trans. Having the closer, shorter gears in the 6spd (vs. the 5spd) keeps the engine in the powerband more effectively with less hp. With that said, justifying the B20 to be slightly lighter to the Ks.

 

Your argument might hold water if the B20 makes the same power with K series. IF indeed, the gearing on K series gives advantageous. However, there is already allowance to allow the B20 to make significantly more power than the K. This should negate the gearing advantage.

 

Now, what is the justification that the B20 is lighter than K?

[mikeski38]

Now, what is the justification that the B20 is lighter than K?

 

The K will last 2 years and the B20 will last 2 weekends. Just throwing it out there.

[RaceTiva]

I agree with Mike. My B20 only lasted 2 weekends.

 

My B20 would only pull on Graham's K24 when we were halfway down the straight. Everywhere else, the K was better. That could just be that one driver was better than the other. My car was always 40-50 lbs overweight though. If it was at min. weight it may have been closer. I still think the TSX K24 is better than the B20 VTEC overall. It is cheaper in the long run and on average has 40 foot pounds more torque.

[Redstone]

b20's last quite a bit longer than two races.. i know its been a while since you raced, but last i saw your car your motor was still running strong.

 

if you keep the revs down resonable i dont see why the b20 wouldnt last 6-8 weekends or more.

[Andrie]

Now, what is the justification that the B20 is lighter than K?

 

The K will last 2 years and the B20 will last 2 weekends. Just throwing it out there.

 

 

It last more than 2 weekends, granted nit as long as a stock k. Ok, don't add weight to the b20, just limit the power so it last longer. How about take the aftermarket cams away?

[B.KRAUS]

My motor GRUNTS down the straights.BLACKTRAX ROCKS.Car is going back to them to retune and make faster.The h23 motor in my car is really fast.I just need to get rid of the understeer in it.Right now i put in 1600lbs rear springs and 800 front springs.I had 1100 rear and it pushed really bad.1600lbs was better but not enough.My rear bar is at 856lbs per inch of roll.What are you guys doing back east who drive preluds to get your cars to rotate?Is 2000lbs rear spring sound crazy to you?Should i try this 2000LBS REAR 1100lbs FRONT.Can i also run taller lower ball joints?If so where do i get them?thanks bk.

[jmeris]

It last more than 2 weekends, granted nit as long as a stock k. Ok, don't add weight to the b20, just limit the power so it last longer. How about take the aftermarket cams away?

 

And use what stock cams? Are we trying to kill H1 completely? or have H1 be solely a K series powered class?A B20 built correctly and revved (less than 9000rpms) within reason will last at the least 6-8 weekends. Trust me I know. How bout we mandate the K's to the 5spd. trans only?? Doesn't make sense does it.

[B.KRAUS]

Can i put a k24 in my car?will it fit?

[slammed_93_hatch]

It last more than 2 weekends, granted nit as long as a stock k. Ok, don't add weight to the b20, just limit the power so it last longer. How about take the aftermarket cams away?

 

And use what stock cams? Are we trying to kill H1 completely? or have H1 be solely a K series powered class?A B20 built correctly and revved (less than 9000rpms) within reason will last at the least 6-8 weekends. Trust me I know. How bout we mandate the K's to the 5spd. trans only?? Doesn't make sense does it.

 

 

I say drop 50lbs off of all other motors/cars. Lets speed up H1.

 

IMO the K is/was popular because you dont have to build them, you can buy a k20a R or K24a2 and make competitive numbers.

 

With the H, and B they need to be built.

 

THAT is why H1 was so populated with K power cars.

 

If i was building a H1 car it would have a H23 vtec motor.

[slammed_93_hatch]

Can i put a k24 in my car?will it fit?

 

 

Yep.

 

Hasport was building (maybe still is) building a prelude like yours with a K24

 

 

Hasport also sells the mount kit to drop the motor in.

 

(there website is down or i would give you a link.)

[Andrie]

Hey Brandon,

 

to put a K series in your car will require quite a bit of work as most stuff will need to be changed.

 

Here is what you need and the current going cost

1. Engine and trans K24A2 $3K. K20A $4K

2. Shifter and cables. $200

3. Axles. about $500 to $1000

4. Radiator as the hoses is on the other side. about $300

5. Mounts. Hasport about $500

6. Header. About $1K

7. Wiring harness. About $300

8. Hondata Kpro. About $1.1k

 

Altogether about $6500 to $8000.

 

Now, you can probably sell all your H series stuff for about $5K

[B.KRAUS]

Just seeing if it would work.If anything i will buy an h2 car when h1 car count is low.

[mikeski38]

Brandon, just buy a stock H22 and put some weight in your car. No need to buy and entire second car.

[B.KRAUS]

To much work taking out one motor and putting in another one.Im better off buying another car.Plus the way you guys are driving i need a chep car just in case we start racing like NASCAR.LOL.I think h2 is going in the right direction.Preaty cheep and not that much slower than h1.

[mikeski38]

If you want a beater I'll sell you my del sol shell for $900. All it needs is a transmission, shocks, a fender and some details.