2010 Rules Request - ABS

[ST#97]

 

What bling bling "serious race parts"? You mean the $10,000, AL block, high compression, DOHC motors that some people are running? Oh... my bad...

 

That's a pretty bold statement, it must be a long time since you've read the rules...

 

My OEM block cost $175 off craigslist...I could replicate my motor for $5k or less depending on internals and it's only a 2V...4V's suck... so what's your point? I get crapp all the time for still having the stock steering wheel and column in my car.

 

I recently built a CMC2 car for a rookie in TX that if it had different cams, 4 piston brakes, change the spring rates and add a spliter/wing would be identical to my car except for the weight savings items..same shocks, same engine minus the cams/valve springs...he's only a couple seconds behind our AI field. Seriously, $2k would have him a competitive AI car, and he only has $12k or so building the -2 car, including the price of the car and the built motor I put together for him. Just because we CAN do lexan and remove a lot of steel, doesn't mean you must to be competitive. Look at Robin's car at Nats 2008 for pete's sake.

 

"Bling Bling": I am talking of $10k shock packages, $4k brake packages and $350 tires...if they are even going to make the 18" RA1's again....? Eliminate the "unobtainium" parts and the "rich assholes" will disappear because driving on $600 Koni DA's is beneath them.

 

Yes. I am that serious about keeping ABS. I would rather take a year off moving the engine back 10" to run in ST2 than I would running without ABS and buying tires all the time to replace the square ones. If I am going to work on the car..it will be to go faster, not to step backwards.

 

If you guys aren't wanting to cut on the car or build stuff yourself or run without ABS and drive in a driver's class....GO TO CMC2. It's growing faster than you can imagine. Then, bring the car to Hallett next June and find out what a REAL driver's class is all about...

 

What I don't get is you guys are all wound up about not being able to police a friggin' ABS unit on ONE version of car in the series, because of the LIKELYHOOD of rain.....but are fully open to all the BS engine control systems out there and watching guys fiddle around with timing, ignition boxes and going into their engines DURING an event while spending more time on the dyno than actually on the track. I re-tuned my car in 2007, haven't touched the motor/computer since...show up at the track, play with tire pressures, clean the air filter now and then and race/drink beer and socialize, then Load the car and go home, because it's a hell of a lot of fun. That's grassroots racing...to me atleast.

 

If you are complaining about a 3rd gen camaro in general...well, did you build it AFTER the AI rules allowed ABS? Again, YOUR CHOICE. Sadly, the 3rd gen in both CMC2 and AI is at a disadvantage for aftermarket support....but I guess so are AMC Javelins...we can't cater your weapon of choice as a "special needs" case and penalize the rest of the series.

 

If platform is that big of a deal...there is a warehouse full of used Mustang Challenge cars at the Mustang Shop in MMP on sale for $35k...and quite a few AI cars for sale right now for half that or less. The fact that car counts in OTHER classes in NASA are going up right now has me on the fence of selling mine and building another CMC2 car....AND having a GTO or C5 Z06 for a street car.

 

TJ...just to be clear. I think it's AWESOME what you have done for such little invested. I think that is the original INTENT of AI. Sadly, there are people that think spending money equals instant talent on track and you will NEVER change that regardless of whatever the rules say. It's a fact of racing that sometimes sucks.

 

I think we ALL want the same thing...less costs, more new cars/drivers coming in and FUN...right? The problem I see is that we are trying to cut our noses off to spite our feet. Rule out the "big ticket" items and rein the series back in....don't go backwards by "dumbing down" the performance.

[gbrown8439]

 

What I don't get is you guys are all wound up about not being able to police a friggin' ABS unit on ONE version of car in the series, because of the LIKELYHOOD of rain

 

I can appreciate you not wanting to remove your ABS but....

 

The FR500S ABS is an advantage in the wet and in the dry. If this system was installed on your car and made to work properly I guarantee you would be faster.

I have raced cars with no abs, stock abs and the FR abs and I promise you the FR system is a HUGE advantage.

 

If you are OK with giving that advantage to your competitor then good for you but I don't think that is fair to everyone else.

[D Algozine]

Here I am sucked back in ....again.

 

ABS is cutting edge ?? Crazy, they are a stock component. I removed hundreds of stock parts from my car to make it a race car: entire front and rear suspension, k member, fuel system, engine, trans, rear end. The list is endless. ABS is just another stock part. Now the race version of ABS is very different, and telling the two apart is impossilbe and would require a ton of resources (time and money) to police.

 

Square tires - Not if you learn how to brake hard and not lock up. Like all other driving skills, it is learned. Many are doing it.

 

$7,000 dollar shocks only HELP. You still need the car to be set up properly, and you must be able to drive in order take advantage of quality, high end shocks. ABS is just, stomp on the pedal and the computer does the work. Not a lot of skill involved.

 

CMC2 and AI are close except for ABS???? Not according to the rules. Sure a lot of AI cars aren't built to the rules, but more cars are being modified and improved and many more will be in next few years. The gap between the two series is huge, and will continue to grow apart. We can't just look at this particular time period. Look ahead. What's coming??

 

As stated the stock ABS is a huge advantage in the rain, and only marginally better on dry. However, the latest version of the RACE designed ABS is a huge advantage on dry pavement. Ask anyone who's driven one of these systems. They are awesome. Plus, they will continue to get better, and most likely increase in complexity and cost.

 

Point of interest

 

ABS is not stock on all AI legal cars. Some can be retrofitted, some would be very difficult and involved.

 

It is a very important driver skill that a computer will do for you.

 

Race versions are avialable, and they are awesome and no one can tell the difference. Plus, checking would be a huge pain in the a$$.

 

So, there are two options. Unlimited ABS systems or none. What are the advantages for the series, not any individual ? I say non. A race version vs. no ABS is night and day. So, those who don't have it will be looking to keep up. Those with stock version may need to upgrade to keep up. Sounds like a huge opportunity in the near future for increased costs and complexity.

 

Just for the record, my new car is being build with an ABS system. However, I'd love to throw it out. And AI, like nearly all series, is a driving series. Lets keep it about the skills, including fabricating, set up and driving. Leave the computer controled stuff out.

[ST#97]

 

If you are OK with giving that advantage to your competitor then good for you but I don't think that is fair to everyone else.

 

Ok. so how much is the system? I have been told it is stand alone and requires power and wheel sensor wiring. That's 10 wires and a little bit of plumbing.

 

I can buy Sn99 and Sn95 ABS pumps from wrecking yards and ebay all day long for $500 or MUCH less. Fox guys typically install all the SN95 parts anyway which have the ABS parts already=zero cost. How about not renting the GP garage for a weekend or just miss a race weekend and pay for it. Will ford even sell this unit to a NON-FR500 owner? How many of these cars are out there racing in AI today...and haven't already been watched for cheating? Seems like a lot of "OMG the sky is falling"...yet your standing inside the building complaining about the possibility of rain outside?...

 

So, let me get this straight, spending $15k to put 18's, 14" brakes and Motons on an AI car is ok....but ABS is taboo....? What about aftermarket PCM's? SCT chips can do all we need at this power level in just about every EFI car in the series so why not ban non-oem pcm's and ignitions?

 

Sorry guys...I am bored at work today but I SERIOUSLY think you are over thinking this "problem".

 

If this cheating REALLY is that prevelent....to hell with the rules, get the baseball bats and shivs for some "code reds"....

 

Here is a better idea....How about have NASA approach Ford Racing and ask them to ONLY sell to registered FR500 Owners on an exchange basis, or just walk out into the warehouse and spray paint them all bright green or stamp "for racing use only". Requires little to no effort on our part...

Edited October 7, 2009 by Guest

[kbrew8991]

if you're listening (I question that ) he seems to be against it due to a driving skill / competition aspect, and not a cost control aspect

[ST#97]

nevermind...

[robbodleimages]

"be careful not to american sedan this class" What does that mean?

 

SCCA American Sedan is stuck in the 80s. You must run a carburated 302 Ford or 305 SBC and 12" brakes. The last carburated Mustang was 1994 IIRC. That class stopped evolving into the future at that point. Now they are racing 15 year old technoligy.

 

I race AI because I didnt want to totally disassemble a 95 Cobra R to fit that class. Which is required for any Mustang that was fuel injected and came with 13" brakes. Its a main reason why AI grew so fast. If you had a 97 Cobra, there was no place to race in SCCA.

 

If you start outlawing mainstream technical advances like ABS brakes and continue with the philosophy to make illegal new mainstream stuff when the next generation of cars hits the streets, you will end up with a class that doesnt make sense for anyone with reasonably current equipment.

 

Do we want AI2 for S197 Mustangs and new Camaros and the old cars racing in a seperate class or do we evolve AI in a reasonable way?

 

Like I said before. Its a safety issue. We should be allowed to run contemparary brakes.

for that reason alone.

 

One last thing. If we outlaw ABS, lets also outlaw anything but stock master cylinders and outlaw front to rear and side to side perportioning valves.

[D Algozine]

"be careful not to american sedan this class" What does that mean?

 

SCCA American Sedan is stuck in the 80s. You must run a carburated 302 Ford or 305 SBC and 12" brakes. The last carburated Mustang was 1994 IIRC. That class stopped evolving into the future at that point. Now they are racing 15 year old technoligy.

 

I race AI because I didnt want to totally disassemble a 95 Cobra R to fit that class. Which is required for any Mustang that was fuel injected and came with 13" brakes. Its a main reason why AI grew so fast. If you had a 97 Cobra, there was no place to race in SCCA.

 

If you start outlawing mainstream technical advances like ABS brakes and continue with the philosophy to make illegal new mainstream stuff when the next generation of cars hits the streets, you will end up with a class that doesnt make sense for anyone with reasonably current equipment.

 

Do we want AI2 for S197 Mustangs and new Camaros and the old cars racing in a seperate class or do we evolve AI in a reasonable way?

 

Like I said before. Its a safety issue. We should be allowed to run contemparary brakes.

for that reason alone.

 

One last thing. If we outlaw ABS, lets also outlaw anything but stock master cylinders and outlaw front to rear and side to side perportioning valves.

 

I don't understand the correlation between an AI race car and a street car. Look at the photos of Pat Lindseys car. He had most of the Nationals field covered by anywhere from 2-4 seconds. Yes, that's one lap. Do you see anything stock about it? Pat is obviously an excellent driver, but that car is where the current AI rules are. The days of adding a few suspensin mods and a cam to a street car and going AI racing are slipping away. That is more like a CMC2 car, but then the ABS is out. Go figure !!

AI has become about fabricating, set up, testing and driving a race car.

Again, my opinion, the stock ABS system is just another stock part that should come off in order to build a race car.

[ST#97]

I don't understand the correlation between an AI race car and a street car. Look at the photos of Pat Lindseys car. He had most of the Nationals field covered by anywhere from 2-4 seconds. Yes, that's one lap. Do you see anything stock about it? Pat is obviously an excellent driver, but that car is where the current AI rules are. The days of adding a few suspensin mods and a cam to a street car and going AI racing are slipping away. That is more like a CMC2 car, but then the ABS is out. Go figure !!

AI has become about fabricating, set up, testing and driving a race car.

Again, my opinion, the stock ABS system is just another stock part that should come off in order to build a race car.

 

Sorry Dave, but that line of thinking is what is killing AI car counts as it has become too "unapproachable" to the outsiders looking to join the series. There needs to be a simple way for CMC/2 cars to move up. Personally, I think Groth's new car is was disgusting to see that kind of coin getting dropped into AI. Cost limits on parts like shocks, limits on brake sizes and piston counts, reasonable aero limits and "using as much stock parts as possible" is what is going to keep this series from dying....pretty soon, CMC2 is going to have 20 cars at a race, AI might have 2 and AIX will have 10 if we stay on our current path.

 

 

And to use Pat's car as an example of where AI is going or use his lap times as comparison, is at best WAY off base. Did you bother to REALLY look at the car...it's an AIX car....sorry, but I don't like electric power steering in AI or 034 computer systems or notched rear frame rails or cars that spend time in wind tunnels. HOwever, if he wants to keep building motors that only last 18 minutes, I am fine with that.

 

 

Cost limits on parts like shocks, limits on brake sizes and piston counts, reasonable aero limits and "using as much stock parts as possible" is what is going to keep this series from dying....pretty soon, CMC2 is going to have 20 cars at a race, AI might have 2 and AIX will have 10 and ST2 is going to have 15 if we stay on our current path.

[tacovini]

What a let down!!! I was so looking forward to the entertaining threads that would have come up like in years past!

 

Every party needs a pooper I guess.

 

Whew...for a minute there, I was worried about ruining all the fun!

 

Let's keep it civil, guys. Remember that principle. I already know the Point/Counter-Point of the ABS argument. (Jane...you ignorant slut!) No need to make ill-references to fellow racers and pontificate your views of them. There's nothing worse as a racer than being Misunderstood, or called a Cheater. It's the jugular of Ultimate Fighting, and really not necessary. Everyone makes choices in racing and we all come from different walks of life. Some with Money, some without...don't fault someone because they can afford an enclosed trailer and such.... we're all in the same racing sandbox.

 

Good debate in any case. I'm sure the AI Leadership team will read these threads, however the rule request as submitted will be what is reviewed. If you feel as though the suggested wording should be different than Jeff's, submit another RCR. If you agree with his request, no need to submit another...it'll get reviewed. If you feel as though a rule is in jeopardy, send a note or pick up the phone and contact your regional AI director and myself to make sure your views on the issue are known.

 

Matt...I trust that Al Fernandez (your AI series director) knows your position on ABS.

 

-=- Todd

[Jeff F]

Personally, even the FR500's that were at Miller could not outbrake me unless they were on Hoosiers or R1's.

I hate to "brake" the news to you, but there were AI cars that had you more than covered in the braking department. I spent several sessions down at turn 1 watching cars and braking points, and your car was one of the ones I was watching because I knew it had SN95 ABS. Do you have any data from your car? I have data from a few of the better stopping cars that I'm not at liberty to share, but could certainly compare to yours to verify the fact. If you don't think you are at a disadvantage, you are kidding yourself.

 

Here is a better idea....How about have NASA approach Ford Racing and ask them to ONLY sell to registered FR500 Owners on an exchange basis, or just walk out into the warehouse and spray paint them all bright green or stamp "for racing use only". Requires little to no effort on our part...

Not a chance. There is one person that decides where those ABS modules go. Me. We've already sold a bunch of them, and I have no intention to limit their availability to all of the happy customers that run them in track-day cars and other race series. I also have no intention to help NASA police this. I don't see a GM guy helping NASA make sure that the ABS modules in GM's are legal, why should I help police the cars that I'm trying to support?

 

The FR500S ABS is an advantage in the wet and in the dry. If this system was installed on your car and made to work properly I guarantee you would be faster. I have raced cars with no abs, stock abs and the FR abs and I promise you the FR system is a HUGE advantage.

As one of the people involved in the development of the FR500 ABS, I concur.

 

Like I said before. Its a safety issue. We should be allowed to run contemparary brakes. for that reason alone.

If no ABS is so unsafe and ancient, perhaps you can explan why current Formula 1 cars don't have ABS.

 

I will reiterate my statement from above-- all I want is an enforceable rule. If you get rid of ABS, I do nothing. If we do nothing or open it up, I spend a bunch of time and $ installing FR500 ABS on my Fox and end up with a competitive advantage because I have intimate knowledge of the the system and can make it work better than anyone else in AI. Either way, I win.

[GuyC]

How about this, if you keep the abs you must run the stock calipers and rotors (not Roush of Saleen brakes), remove it and run whatever brakes you want.

 

Guy

[Mystic_Cobra]

"The FR500C and FR500S units were both specifically calibrated to those cars, on race tracks, with the correct suspension and tires. It is a pure race tuning that doesn't have any of the compromises found in street car ABS."

 

 

If this is true, then taking that ABS unit and putting it in another racecar would require just as much tuning as any other ABS unit.

 

Has anyone successfully taken one of these race units and used it in another Mustang for a significant advantage?

 

Are we supposed to be casting votes here?

[MikeP-99Z]

If the FR500S unit is available to the public and can be put in any model car (Ford, Chevy, whatever) at a reasonable price, why not line item spec it out (if ABS remains in the rules).

[nape]

My OEM block cost $175 off craigslist...I could replicate my motor for $5k or less depending on internals and it's only a 2V...4V's suck... so what's your point? I get crapp all the time for still having the stock steering wheel and column in my car.

 

The point was that you've said how much you have in your motor in the past but you're balking at that amount of money for other parts. Tires and brakes are the most important thing on a road race car yet you can't fathom the idea of a more expensive tire or upgraded brakes. I don't agree with the price on them either, but that's the great thing about this series. It isn't spec and you can do what you want with whatever you can find.

 

I recently built a CMC2 car for a rookie in TX that if it had different cams, 4 piston brakes, change the spring rates and add a spliter/wing would be identical to my car except for the weight savings items..same shocks, same engine minus the cams/valve springs...he's only a couple seconds behind our AI field. Seriously, $2k would have him a competitive AI car, and he only has $12k or so building the -2 car, including the price of the car and the built motor I put together for him. Just because we CAN do lexan and remove a lot of steel, doesn't mean you must to be competitive. Look at Robin's car at Nats 2008 for pete's sake.

 

Use that to pull more people to AI then. SHOW them that you don't need the unobtainium to be competitive in AI. I've been trying to talk to the GM guys in our region and show them that you don't need all these high dollar parts to go fast. I'm sure Motons are great, but a set is about my race budget for the season, so I do without.

 

"Bling Bling": I am talking of $10k shock packages, $4k brake packages and $350 tires...if they are even going to make the 18" RA1's again....? Eliminate the "unobtainium" parts and the "rich assholes" will disappear because driving on $600 Koni DA's is beneath them.

 

"Rich assholes" will never disappear, they just find different things to spend the money on. Don't believe me? Look at SM or any open wheel class for that matter. The other thing is that while unobtainium is expensive, used unobtainium is a lot cheaper, usually pennies on the dollar.

 

If you guys aren't wanting to cut on the car or build stuff yourself or run without ABS and drive in a driver's class....GO TO CMC2. It's growing faster than you can imagine. Then, bring the car to Hallett next June and find out what a REAL driver's class is all about...

 

That's fine if you live in CA, TX, or MA regions. The current MW/GL CMC2 car count is... 0. I have no problems building things myself or cutting on the car, but I don't have access to a CNC machine to custom make tone rings and the parts necessary to add ABS. The ABS pump/computer is the easy part, the rest is where the money comes in.

 

What I don't get is you guys are all wound up about not being able to police a friggin' ABS unit on ONE version of car in the series, because of the LIKELYHOOD of rain.....but are fully open to all the BS engine control systems out there and watching guys fiddle around with timing, ignition boxes and going into their engines DURING an event while spending more time on the dyno than actually on the track. I re-tuned my car in 2007, haven't touched the motor/computer since...show up at the track, play with tire pressures, clean the air filter now and then and race/drink beer and socialize, then Load the car and go home, because it's a hell of a lot of fun. That's grassroots racing...to me atleast.

 

Rain happens more often around here, so we tend to get more wound up about it. The April event had 0 dry sessions, May had 2 wet sessions, June had 2 wet sessions, July was dry, August had 2 wet sessions and the race ended 30 minutes before a t-storm, Sept was dry, October threatened and drizzled during the race. It's rained so much this year that I went to the junkyard for parts to put the second wiper back on early in the season.

 

If you are complaining about a 3rd gen camaro in general...well, did you build it AFTER the AI rules allowed ABS? Again, YOUR CHOICE. Sadly, the 3rd gen in both CMC2 and AI is at a disadvantage for aftermarket support....but I guess so are AMC Javelins...we can't cater your weapon of choice as a "special needs" case and penalize the rest of the series.

 

I'm just stating my position. I'm all for competitive advantages, but unless I spend a few stacks of cash (that I don't have) to design/machine/test an ABS system that might work, I'm up a creek. I don't expect the rules to cater to me, but other then ABS, every platform is starting from a mostly-level slate given the current rules.

 

TJ...just to be clear. I think it's AWESOME what you have done for such little invested. I think that is the original INTENT of AI. Sadly, there are people that think spending money equals instant talent on track and you will NEVER change that regardless of whatever the rules say. It's a fact of racing that sometimes sucks.

 

That's why you have to get over the money issue of the whole thing. It took me a while to get over it too, but now it's almost a feeling of pride to do as well or better with less. I'm just as happy with my $160/each Wilwoods and $550 Konis as I would be with Stoptechs and Motons. Scratch that, I'm probably happier this way.

 

I think we ALL want the same thing...less costs, more new cars/drivers coming in and FUN...right? The problem I see is that we are trying to cut our noses off to spite our feet. Rule out the "big ticket" items and rein the series back in....don't go backwards by "dumbing down" the performance.

 

You could try to do that, but I think you just need to show the new drivers that you don't need those parts to be fast. You can spend the kid's college fund to race in AI, but you don't have to unless you want to be able to say the names of your favorite aftermarket parts makers.

[nape]

So, let me get this straight, spending $15k to put 18's, 14" brakes and Motons on an AI car is ok....but ABS is taboo....? What about aftermarket PCM's? SCT chips can do all we need at this power level in just about every EFI car in the series so why not ban non-oem pcm's and ignitions?

 

I bought ( 19lb 18x9.5 wheels for $1000 shipped over last winter. The plan was to run World Challenge GT scuffs for $60 each. Tires-a-plenty in 265 and 275 wide. You still could for the first 3 races of next year, but the R888s sucking ruined that plan. So much for that money saver, glad I didn't sell my 17s!

 

14" brakes are a phone call away to any Chevy (or Ford, if you swing that way) dealer and $20 in 3/8" steel to make a bracket (with material to spare).

 

What's a PCM? My carb cost $300 ready to run, my intake manifold was $70 used, and a jet kit is $80 if I really want to get crazy. You want to talk about controlling costs?

 

Certain people are always going to spend money looking for an advantage. The trick is to find the advantage without spending as much money. Let them spent time and money to have PCMs that let them tailor part-throttle fueling/ignition to perfection. While they're spending time doing that, I'll be trying to figure out how I can get to WOT faster.

[nape]

The reason it only cost that much is all the parts were designed and produced by the OEM. They absorbed all the R&D and tooling costs.

 

I'll agree with that. why couldn't you get a junkyard corvette/ newer camaro abs box? I'm sure with some research you could find something that you could adapt to make work on your car .

 

The box is the easy part. The hard part it attaching the tone rings and mounting the sensors in a way that they would read correctly. The 3rd gen was the last of the breed to use the old style wheel bearings (spindle pin and rotors with the hub cast in them). All the newer stuff has the sensor integrated into the hub with the tone ring inside.

 

C5 'vette:

 

4th gen F-body:

 

So, unless I want to engineer the system from scratch, it's more or less a lost cause. That's before the nightmare of trying to retrofit a 9" with ABS after getting sick of breaking 10-bolts.

[Aaron B]

Todd C, can you think about changing the HP/weight to 8.5 to 1 and the TQ to 8 to 1 ....and Jeff F, I would like the Exact same ABS system your planning to install on your car....this will help us/you with data collection

[Grizlbits]

Why don't we do what the SCCA does and add about 150 - 200 pounds to any car with any ABS? Or we could make the hp ratio 10 and the torque 9.5 or something similar for ABS cars? Just throwing it out there. Carry on.

[robbodleimages]

why dont we run stock brakes. No ABS, No dual master cylinders, No perportioning valves, no brake bais adjustments.

[koserv]

The trick is to find the advantage without spending as much money.

 

 

You Mr. Bain, are my hero....

[robbodleimages]

Why don't we do what the SCCA does and add about 150 - 200 pounds to any car with any ABS? Or we could make the hp ratio 10 and the torque 9.5 or something similar for ABS cars? Just throwing it out there. Carry on.

 

Better yet, why not use a PT like points system?

[D Algozine]

1) Name / Region / Car # / Contact Info (email or phone, etc)

David Algozine / Midwest / #12 / [email protected]

 

2) Rule reference # (ex.- Rule 3.2 – Title, Part, section…)

8.3 Anti-lock brake systems are prohibited except for an unmodified OEM system, which includes

ABS valve body and electronics as delivered from the factory. Updating and backdating of

factory ABS systems into newer and older cars is allowed. Calipers are unrestricted.

 

10.1 Traction control devices other than factory-installed units are expressly prohibited.

 

We were previously told that the FR500C and FR500S ABS Modules are not allowed. JWL has been copied and he can provide background. Some prior discussion on the subject:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18004

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24658

 

3) Recommended Revised Wording

ABS braking systems and traction control are prohibited in AI. ABS and traction control are unrestricted in AIX. (Honestly, AIX doesn’t matter much to me, but in a class where you can have unlimited engines, you might as well have unlimited ABS)

 

4) Reasoning for change MUST include at least 1 of the following:

The reasoning behind this request is that the current rule is completely unenforceable. This was demonstrated at the 2009 National Championships. I know for a fact that there were cars with illegal ABS. I specifically asked how the ABS rule was going to be enforced, and was told that they had no way to enforce it.

a) Will decrease series cost because…

…it will save competitors the cost of upgrading their cars to the ABS systems required to be competitive. Cost to disable ABS and traction control is negligible.

b) Will increase series competition because…

 

 

c) Will increase competition because…

…having no ABS will put all cars and platforms at an equal level of competitiveness.

Some cars didn't come with ABS and adding ABS to some cars is nearly impossible.

ABS lowers the required skill level to be competive. Not having it or other electonic gadgets puts the skill back in the hands of the driver, which is better for competition.

[firehawkclone]

I researched GM F-body ABS for a little while and it boils down to this:

 

-'82-'92 cars were never offered with ABS, even as an option. The only way to do it with somewhat stock parts is to make hubs out of mid-90s S-10 pickup rotors and then you're still left with the ABS system from an S-10 pickup... BTW, I don't think this was ever tried, just theory and parts bin bench racing.

-'93-'97 cars don't seem to have much of a problem with ABS, but I don't think anyone has used it at an AI level.

-'98-'02 cars have an "Ice mode" issue where the system will just give up and throw you the finger sometimes.

 

Most F-body race cars delete the ABS module by the time they become competitive.

 

The 3rd gen front suspension is not even close to 4th gen parts, so F-bodies don't even have the option to update like the Fox through New Edge cars do.

 

My vote is to illegalize ABS. It's such an advantage in the rain that it removes a lot of the skill and turns it into a have/have not situation. If you're worried about burning up tires in the rain, turn ABS off for a few rain races and learn like the rest of us have. Seat time and proper car control are beaten into our heads the entire way through the NASA process, why stop now?

 

For the guys that don't want to entirely remove it from their cars, have them install a seperate fuse block in the trunk for the ABS fuse. That way, they can install it when they aren't racing in AI, but it'll be more difficult then normal to cheat if they deem necessary.

 

PS- Todd, do we need to write you in addition to Jeff to get more emphasis put on this or will you consider the input stated on this forum? Thanks.

 

 

If we can't police it, get rid of it! A 15yrs old stock GM unit is not even close to a new custom tune race unit.

[firehawkclone]

Todd C, can you think about changing the HP/weight to 8.5 to 1 and the TQ to 8 to 1

 

I was almost burned at the stake last year for trying this one, but I would love this, there is only a handful of cars in AI now that couldn't make this as they sit i bet!